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      04-13-2013, 08:50 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Goat Rodeo View Post
Excellent point. I think people that smoke in front of other people (who don't smoke) are assholes. It's called second hand smoke, and it can kill people, especially in shared homes. I feel the same way about people that drive around on public roads with DSC off for no logical reason.

Forcing your bad choices on others is inconsiderate and selfish.
Yes so what is keeping you from protesting to the fullest of your capabilities and while you're at it , don't ever EVER EVER go faster than the speed limit....EVER ! Cause a lot of thought was put into that, much like esp and dsc, so if you do , I hope you can't sleep because of remorse , even if it's just by 5 mph my friend.....Cause that 5 mph may have helped to keep that person you just crashed into alive !!!!! NEVER EVER DRIVE ABOVE THE SPEED LIMIT AGAIN , NOT BY 1 MPH !!!!
And while your at that , never ever fail to come to a complete stop at a stop sign ever again....Not by a millisecond . Because when you hit that oncomming car, even if you were physically almost at a dead stop but still rolling.....I will judge the living shit out of you !!!!
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      04-13-2013, 09:24 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by 1MtoM3 View Post
Yes so what is keeping you from protesting to the fullest of your capabilities and while you're at it , don't ever EVER EVER go faster than the speed limit....EVER ! Cause a lot of thought was put into that, much like esp and dsc, so if you do , I hope you can't sleep because of remorse , even if it's just by 5 mph my friend.....Cause that 5 mph may have helped to keep that person you just crashed into alive !!!!! NEVER EVER DRIVE ABOVE THE SPEED LIMIT AGAIN , NOT BY 1 MPH !!!!
And while your at that , never ever fail to come to a complete stop at a stop sign ever again....Not by a millisecond . Because when you hit that oncomming car, even if you were physically almost at a dead stop but still rolling.....I will judge the living shit out of you !!!!
decaf?
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      04-13-2013, 10:13 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD View Post
decaf?
hhahaha no shit ! I'm primed up ....
It's all so subjective that it hurts my insides.......
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      04-14-2013, 05:33 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD View Post
decaf?
To be fair the man is right...some of the posts in this thread send the hypocrisy meter into the red zone.
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      04-14-2013, 10:06 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
To be fair the man is right...some of the posts in this thread send the hypocrisy meter into the red zone.
yes i know just poking fun at the rant.
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      04-14-2013, 11:21 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD View Post
yes i know just poking fun at the rant.
I just don't get what hypocrisy has to do with it
Drive it the way you think is safe , don't be dumbass on public roads.
Fact is , governing bodies would keep you from turning esp dsc off in certain zones if they felt like they had to do so . My point is maybe someday they will , just like they will limit every car for speed . Until then , much like you don't grab a gun and go shoot people randomly in the street, you don't drive like a jackass on the street. Turning off esp dosent make you a murderer, and my other point is , if you are going to get your panties in a bunch over people doing so , you might as well get fired up about everything else in our hectic society. If you someone has the right to point the finger at something that is legal, someone else has the right to respond . Endless endless debate , thats how it is .
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      04-14-2013, 11:34 AM   #51
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Simply can not get a true feel for the car with everything turned on. Im a good driver but i want to become GREAT and cant do that with nanny mode turned on.
Think the biggest thing we need is better driving corses/tests for people to even be able to drive, many parts of the world are very amused at our stupid slow speed limits but the average American is a novice driver at best.
Keeping people in a fluffy safe world with a 1000 rules to "keep you safe" leads to alot of unskilled, unequiped, unhappy people never knowing what they are capable of.
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      04-14-2013, 11:38 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by squartus View Post
Simply can not get a true feel for the car with everything turned on. Im a good driver but i want to become GREAT and cant do that with nanny mode turned on.
Think the biggest thing we need is better driving corses/tests for people to even be able to drive, many parts of the world are very amused at our stupid slow speed limits but the average American is a novice driver at best.
Keeping people in a fluffy safe world with a 1000 rules to "keep you safe" leads to alot of unskilled, unequiped, unhappy people never knowing what they are capable of.
Very good point . Everything , every new rule or law is pushing our race towards stupidity instead of polishing talent and putting emphasis on filtering out inadequacies in all aspects of modern life . Dont do this , dont do that . Everything will kill you , everything is dangerous .
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      04-14-2013, 01:38 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squartus View Post
Simply can not get a true feel for the car with everything turned on. Im a good driver but i want to become GREAT and cant do that with nanny mode turned on.
Think the biggest thing we need is better driving corses/tests for people to even be able to drive, many parts of the world are very amused at our stupid slow speed limits but the average American is a novice driver at best.
Keeping people in a fluffy safe world with a 1000 rules to "keep you safe" leads to alot of unskilled, unequiped, unhappy people never knowing what they are capable of.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1MtoM3 View Post
Very good point . Everything , every new rule or law is pushing our race towards stupidity instead of polishing talent and putting emphasis on filtering out inadequacies in all aspects of modern life . Dont do this , dont do that . Everything will kill you , everything is dangerous .
My main point of this entire thread is leaving DSC on for regular driving in regular situations (as an additional safety net not a fool proof nanny), but the choice of turning it off when driving with enthusiasm on a suitable road or track is entirely up to the individual.

It's for when the unexpected happens (especially in an uncontrolled environment like a busy public road), as no matter how good one's skill or awareness is, one cannot react as quickly as DSC can. Steve and Tiff would have recovered their respective vehicles if they could, and clearly, they are amongst the very best drivers in the world.

Driver training and standards play an infinitely more important role than stability systems. But leaving DSC on for where it's appropriate, is such simple task that everyone can do, which can be greatly beneficial in unquantifiable ways. Evidence backs this up, more so than the notion that DSC makes things worst by giving one the false sense of security; a bad driver will be a bad driver regardless of systems, but I did rather the bad driver have these systems in place than none at all.*


Here's Steve Sutcliffe's reply to some questions related to the first video:


1) Can you confirm that your first (out of the 3) avoidance manoeuvre was done with ESP on?

Yup, the ESP was on during that first run.


2) Was it not possible for you to regain control of the Gallardo after you performed the avoidance manoeuvre with ESC-off?(Not talking about whether you could if you attempted it again).

Not really, no; the first time I did it with ESP off I spun. And spun. By the third time I'd learned what to expect and could just about save it on the second phase of the "yours-mine, yours-mine" pantomime – but by then I would already have been deep into the undergrowth in a real world situation; you don't really get a second chance on the M1, after all. (M1 is a motorway in the UK)


3) Also, do you personally feel that stability systems have the potential to impede your interactions with a car when you are driving normally?

Sometimes, yes, ESP systems can be over intrusive, although some manufacturers are a lot better at integrating them naturally into a car's dynamic personality than others. But on a broader note, the whole point about ESP systems is that they cater for what happens when you are NOT in a normal situation; for when that tractor appears out of a sideturning etc. And in those kinds of circumstances, it is invaluable – in my opinion.


Source: http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-video/v...-vs-esp?page=1


Again, by all means, turn everything off at a suitable time and place.

Last edited by mlhj83; 04-14-2013 at 01:48 PM.
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      04-14-2013, 04:28 PM   #54
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Ahhh man , like i've said, i've spun out in a straight line doing 55 on the highway in snow in my e46 m3 on snow tires. Am SIMPLY curious to see what would have happened if I had all nannys off and tried myself to recover. As i have successfully recovered many times in other non dsc vehicles..... Not saying i'm a god of driving. Just saying. It's like saying blue is my favorite color , and you saying red is your favorite.
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      04-14-2013, 04:38 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1MtoM3 View Post
Ahhh man , like i've said, i've spun out in a straight line doing 55 on the highway in snow in my e46 m3 on snow tires. Am SIMPLY curious to see what would have happened if I had all nannys off and tried myself to recover. As i have successfully recovered many times in other non dsc vehicles..... Not saying i'm a god of driving. Just saying. It's like saying blue is my favorite color , and you saying red is your favorite.
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      04-14-2013, 04:44 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlhj83 View Post
Of course it's cool.... That's the way it is.
It's cool that you think it's cool.
Oh... By the way... When is it reasonable to do so.? Maybe we can get a round table of opinionated gurus put together and debate that. And marvel at how it all ends up 50/50.
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      04-14-2013, 04:47 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1MtoM3 View Post
Of course it's cool.... That's the way it is.
It's cool that you think it's cool.
Oh... By the way... When is it reasonable to do so.? Maybe we can get a round table of opinionated gurus put together and debate that. And marvel at how it all ends up 50/50.
I meant cool, as in ok, I understood what you said.
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      04-14-2013, 04:59 PM   #58
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I understand you then.!
I guess I just dont wanna have the danger flag waived at me like when a cop pulls you over and tells you how reckless and dangerous it is for you to be doing 55 in a 54.
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      04-14-2013, 07:28 PM   #59
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This debate can go on endlessly, just like DCT vs 6MT, or the topic of 18 year old teens in M3's. People simply need to accept the fact that people are going to do what they want, whenever they want!

I LOVE driving with DSC off, those beautiful moments of tire screech and sideways drifting and breaking loose from a 1st to 2nd shift.....ah

But anything can happen at anytime and unfortunately, on public roads, this puts others at risk. I also understand that 400hp+ can be very dangerous if the unfortunate comes across. So I decided that the only time I turn off DSC is when the roads are empty. I feel like MDM is the best solution to this issue, but not everybody has this magical button. Yes, DSC OFF is the pure way to drive any car and is most fun. It all boils down to personal responsibility really.
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      04-15-2013, 06:40 AM   #60
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I have been in cars riding with students with DSC on and still spin right off the track. Physics will win every time. If you are determined to ignore the rules then they will bite you back. What I don't like about DSC is it masks mistakes and encourages the eager driver to push the car faster than they should. no better example of how technology can get you into trouble than looking up the dozens of GTR high speed wrecks. They are amazing feats of technology until natural law says enough his enough.

I encourage DSC off all the time. grocery store trip or not. first time on a track or not.
Of course if a student insists on DSC enabled at the track I allow it. then I turn it off on them in the middle of their bad lap. guess what happens. they slow down, they hit apexes, they see reference points, they look up, they drive better!!! DSC is not a magic button.
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      04-15-2013, 06:47 AM   #61
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I encourage DSC off all the time. grocery store trip or not.
Why? Why would you be driving so aggressively to the grocery store that DSC would become intrusive?
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      04-15-2013, 05:24 PM   #62
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Why? Why would you be driving so aggressively to the grocery store that DSC would become intrusive?
Dsc off doesnt mean aggression.
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      04-15-2013, 05:46 PM   #63
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Dsc off doesnt mean aggression.
So then why turn it off if not to drive aggressively?
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      04-15-2013, 06:12 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karussell View Post
Of course if a student insists on DSC enabled at the track I allow it. then I turn it off on them in the middle of their bad lap. guess what happens. they slow down, they hit apexes, they see reference points, they look up, they drive better!!! DSC is not a magic button.
Let me tell you something, if you ever did that to me in my car on the track I would pull straight into the pits on the track and throw you the frick out of my car.

Are you kidding me? I have to believe you are just making this up.

You have zero right to turn dsc off in the middle of another persons lap. It could scare them and cause them to make an expensive mistake in a car that does not belong to you. Simply ridiculous.

In a thread full of asinine responses, yours takes the cake.
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      04-15-2013, 06:58 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1MtoM3 View Post
Last december , while driving in a small snow storm in slightly below freezing weather , my E46 M3's ass starting giving left and right nudges.
Within three seconds at 55 mph in what I would describe as .5-1 inch of slush,the car spun like the rear was kicked by a Giant . Spun to the shoulder facing traffic ( no traffic though, thank god) .
All lights blinking on the dash, in the first instances , the car not letting me use MY input to correct felt like rape , and although it went quickly, it felt like minutes. I guess i felt insulted that if the car couldn't keep itself from at least "swerving", I should of had a chance myself....
I had a similar mishap in my E46 M3. It was in wet snow conditions, the car just spun with DSC on, there is nothing I could do to keep it straight. When the car stopped, all the lights came on in the dash (multiple malfunctions). I found out that the wet snow blocked the readings from the wheel speed sensors and DSC became totally wacko.
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      04-15-2013, 07:00 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karussell View Post
Of course if a student insists on DSC enabled at the track I allow it. then I turn it off on them in the middle of their bad lap.
I guess you don't have the same liability laws in Germany than we have here in North America
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