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      04-11-2013, 09:14 PM   #45
Efthreeoh
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There is your problem. Why don't you go test drve one? Tesla, unlike all the other electric cars have actually revolutionized the chassis design and the integration of technology within a car. It is like the iPhone in 1997. Even if you don't want an electric car, you owe it to yourself to have a drive if you have an ounce of intellectual curiosity.

Regarding your warranty concerns, I can tell you that I very much doubt these M5 engines will last beyond 125,000 miles. If you look at the failure rate on the N63 it's pretty high. At best that engine (the other BMW 4.4l twin turbo V8) has a 150k mile lifecycle. The S63 is a higher performance version of that and likely to last even less time.

Also a 10 year old 125k mile M5 is largely fully depreciated so not much to lose anyway. Tesla may offer same economics, may be better. My guess though having thoroughly looked at that car is that it has to be more reliable. There is simply very little to fail - its a much simpler design with fewer parts.

Regarding your range concerns and the argument that it can't be the only car. First it depends on the person. Between the ages of 21 and 35 I never drive further than the round trip range of the Tesla. It's only recently I began doing road trips. In the past I would fly from Miami to even to close places like the Keys, Tampa, or Orlando. So range doesn't affect everyone. Second, there are on average 2.28 cars per household in the US. So yeah it's not suitable for those poor families with only one car, but they likely can't afford one anyway.
No it's not a problem. For the last time I've already said I don't have an issue with the Tesla S itself as an automobile, I have an issue with the business case for it. You keep comparing it to an M5 for some reason. I wouldn't buy an M5 for a daily driver either. Who gives a shit about an M5? But if we are going to discuss the M5, I'd bet the S63 would last far longer than 125,000 miles. If we are going to consider the Tesla S in the category of the M5 and the Jag XK, and the Benz S Class AMG, Audi S8, then the company will not stay afloat, as those low-rate production cars (based off of higher-rate domesticated models) are built by large corporations, where engineering, design, testing, and manufacturing costs are spread over a large range of vehicles. The particular niche market for the M5 is very small. If that is where the Tesla will compete, then I don't see the company surviving regardless.

As a transportation device the Tesla is just too expensive to operate. Build a 3-series size electric with a similar lifecycle cost of a 3-series and I'd seriously consider it, but Tesla is not there yet. I think the battery design has a lot to do with it. To provide the proper cooling and heating to keep the battery in the optimal temperature range, the battery has to be laid out in the 5 x 8 configuration, so a smaller Tesla may not be a viable design.

I have driven the Volt, however. I think the Volt is every inch as revolutionary as you think the Tesla is. The Volt is a fantastic car. It drives incredibly well for fuel efficient economy car. But for my commute, where roughly half of the miles I drive would be under electric propulsion, there are other ICE-powered models that are less expensive in lifecycle cost. If I lived where my commute was average 40 miles a day, the Volt would be in my driveway right now.

As far as my intellectual curiosity goes, well if you don't consider ownership and use of an electric garden tractor in the early 1970's as open minded about alternative vehicles, then I can't convince you otherwise. Heck, even my current motorcycle is unconventional: a 1999 Honda Valkyrie Interstate - Full-dress tourer with a flat 1500CC six cylinder engine.

Peace.
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      04-11-2013, 09:28 PM   #46
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No offense but get your head out from under a rock.

Honestly that's as off target as saying Rolls Royce won't survive because Maybach went under. One is brilliant and the other a product of incompetence. Tesla is going to thrive.

Tesla has a fantastic product, a brilliant operations setup and top notch management. I have an order down on one and I'm not easily taken by upstarts. The Model S crushes the BMW 550i in every way except road trips that are over 300 miles round trip. In my own car I have only exceeded the daily capacity of the battery twice a year, and for those scenarios I have another car.

Read my review here:
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=664294
So you think the Model S interior is worthy of it's priced because I think they really screwed that up. The car has an interior comparable to a chevrolet leather lol. Do they still fly in their tech too service centers? My buddy had a horrible experience with his waiting on a tech to be shipped out too him I think they really need to step up the dealer system with techs on place but maybe that was just Canada.
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      04-11-2013, 09:36 PM   #47
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No it's not a problem. For the last time I've already said I don't have an issue with the Tesla S itself as an automobile, I have an issue with the business case for it. You keep comparing it to an M5 for some reason. I wouldn't buy an M5 for a daily driver either. Who gives a shit about an M5? But if we are going to discuss the M5, I'd bet the S63 would last far longer than 125,000 miles. If we are going to consider the Tesla S in the category of the M5 and the Jag XK, and the Benz S Class AMG, Audi S8, then the company will not stay afloat, as those low-rate production cars (based off of higher-rate domesticated models) are built by large corporations, where engineering, design, testing, and manufacturing costs are spread over a large range of vehicles. The particular niche market for the M5 is very small. If that is where the Tesla will compete, then I don't see the company surviving regardless.

As a transportation device the Tesla is just too expensive to operate. Build a 3-series size electric with a similar lifecycle cost of a 3-series and I'd seriously consider it, but Tesla is not there yet. I think the battery design has a lot to do with it. To provide the proper cooling and heating to keep the battery in the optimal temperature range, the battery has to be laid out in the 5 x 8 configuration, so a smaller Tesla may not be a viable design.

I have driven the Volt, however. I think the Volt is every inch as revolutionary as you think the Tesla is. The Volt is a fantastic car. It drives incredibly well for fuel efficient economy car. But for my commute, where roughly half of the miles I drive would be under electric propulsion, there are other ICE-powered models that are less expensive in lifecycle cost. If I lived where my commute was average 40 miles a day, the Volt would be in my driveway right now.

As far as my intellectual curiosity goes, well if you don't consider ownership and use of an electric garden tractor in the early 1970's as open minded about alternative vehicles, then I can't convince you otherwise. Heck, even my current motorcycle is unconventional: a 1999 Honda Valkyrie Interstate - Full-dress tourer with a flat 1500CC six cylinder engine.

Peace.
You're lucky if your ABC suspension last 30k miles on that S63 lol it will never make it too 120,000 miles unless you have deep pockets expect at least 5-10k of ABC cost every 2 years easy if not more I would never own an ABC suspension car with over 50k miles what a disaster I'd pay off a CPO m3 in 5 years of owning it just to keep the S running properly.
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      04-11-2013, 11:27 PM   #48
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So you think the Model S interior is worthy of it's priced because I think they really screwed that up. The car has an interior comparable to a chevrolet leather lol. Do they still fly in their tech too service centers? My buddy had a horrible experience with his waiting on a tech to be shipped out too him I think they really need to step up the dealer system with techs on place but maybe that was just Canada.
I agree the interior is not great compared with my $114k sticker M5 Individual.

But I wouldn't say it is any worse than an Audi A6 or any other 50k car.

BTW You do realize that the BMW 528i comes with vinyl seats and a cheap plastic dash.
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      04-11-2013, 11:29 PM   #49
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Okay I'm not going to argue with a cheapo 3 series driver about economics.
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      04-12-2013, 06:41 AM   #50
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Okay I'm not going to argue with a cheapo 3 series driver about economics.
Ah yes, there's that BMW stigma.
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      04-12-2013, 11:29 AM   #51
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Okay I'm not going to argue with a cheapo 3 series driver about economics.
Why not?
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      04-12-2013, 03:07 PM   #52
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Okay I'm not going to argue with a cheapo 3 series driver about economics.
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      04-12-2013, 04:16 PM   #53
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I agree the interior is not great compared with my $114k sticker M5 Individual.

But I wouldn't say it is any worse than an Audi A6 or any other 50k car.

BTW You do realize that the BMW 528i comes with vinyl seats and a cheap plastic dash.
Yes but a 528 is far from the price of a Tesla S. I like them I just think they really screwed the interior, the big screen is nice but the rest of the accessories are bland and cheap feeling. Maybe I'm wrong and they are giving big discount on 65kw models but don't they start at 60k+ and the 85kw at like 75k+? You can pick up a new 535i for less than 50k all day.

I find the A6 is miles ahead of the Tesla S interior obviously not the 2.0T interior though but I still like the Tesla I'm very curious on their future outcome and I think the Model X will bring them alot more exposure and sales.
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      04-13-2013, 12:58 PM   #54
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From what I've ready they're aiming to branch into the 30k car market with a lower-cost, higher-volume option after the Model X comes out.
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      04-14-2013, 10:45 AM   #55
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Honestly if it wasn't for the government tesla would also be out of business.
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      04-14-2013, 12:47 PM   #56
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Honestly if it wasn't for the government tesla would also be out of business.
Same could be said for half the lending institutions, a good chunk of hospitals, a number of major auto manufacturers, a portion of small businesses that take advantage of tax incentives, a BIG heap of American farms, a nice segment of the american tech sector that stays competitive only because we put tarrifs on imported tech goods etc. etc. etc.

The government props up so many businesses and industries yet we find it easier to focus on small potatoes like Tesla . . .
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      04-14-2013, 01:05 PM   #57
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Same could be said for half the lending institutions, a good chunk of hospitals, a number of major auto manufacturers, a portion of small businesses that take advantage of tax incentives, a BIG heap of American farms, a nice segment of the american tech sector that stays competitive only because we put tarrifs on imported tech goods etc. etc. etc.

The government props up so many businesses and industries yet we find it easier to focus on small potatoes like Tesla . . .
Mostly, true, but only because the government GETS IN everyone's business. If it stayed out of most industries and let true market capitalism work, more business would stay in business.

In the case of Tesla, the only reason it will stay in business is because the government has some ridiculous notion that CO2 is killing the planet and is promoting electric automobiles as a countermeasure.

Rant over.
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      04-14-2013, 01:08 PM   #58
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Mostly, true, but only because the government GETS IN everyone's business. If it stayed out of most industries and let true market capitalism work, more business would stay in business.

In the case of Tesla, the only reason it will stay in business is because the government has some ridiculous notion that CO2 is killing the planet and is promoting electric automobiles as a countermeasure.

Rant over.
No, and . Are we really still on this "global warming" is a myth thing?
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      04-15-2013, 07:56 PM   #59
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No, and . Are we really still on this "global warming" is a myth thing?
Cars are not causing global warming. It does it all on it's own.
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      04-16-2013, 08:26 PM   #60
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God forbid the government invest in technologies that could one day change the world and how we operate within it. I think people in general have very little idea of the number of innovations and technologies we use everyday that started via government investment.

There are a lot of great articles out there, from both sides of the political coin, that highlight some of the innovations that have occurred based on government-funded research and development.

http://www.americanprogress.org/issu...nded-research/

It's easy for stuff like this to make news because government is an easy target, but overall these investments have been profitable in the long haul. Good news like that is rarely reported.
Me thinks you don't understand that it is not the governments job to pick winners and losers. You also are on the governments nuts so hard that you fail to realize how much is wasted and lost every year that the government invests taxpayer dollars......nevermind this is pointless isn't it?
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      04-16-2013, 08:35 PM   #61
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Same could be said for half the lending institutions, a good chunk of hospitals, a number of major auto manufacturers, a portion of small businesses that take advantage of tax incentives, a BIG heap of American farms, a nice segment of the american tech sector that stays competitive only because we put tarrifs on imported tech goods etc. etc. etc.

The government props up so many businesses and industries yet we find it easier to focus on small potatoes like Tesla . . .
I love this. Almost 17 trillion in debt and you think what the government does is good. The money it hands out is good. You're right buddy. Yay big government because it works everywhere. Hell, I might as well vacation in Caracas since wherever big government is, peace, love, and tranquility follow
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      04-16-2013, 09:00 PM   #62
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Working at Tesla and reading this, everyone here has made good and arguable points. I do agree that the infrastructure for charging is still in its early stages, but the cars are absolutely incredible.
Being able to drive the Performance 85kWh (beat the BMW M5, C63 AMG, and the Dodge Viper SRT-10 down the 1/4 mile) numerous times the performance on it is truly unbelievable. I strongly recommend trying to schedule a test drive at a local dealer/design studio.

Do i think Tesla will be around for a while, absolutely, company just turned its first profit in quarter one and the loan that we received will be paid back 5 years earlier than expected. Tesla's big push will be the Gen 3 car we come out with still waiting to see what that will entail.

Model X, the SUV is set to begin production next year the SUV/crossover.

Projected costs of a replacement battery pack right now ranges from $10-12K. They are expected to last you anywhere between 10-15 years, and are warrantied for either 8year/125000miles or 8year/unlimited miles.

Model S vs M5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=vvHTN0Yi1t4
Model S vs C63 AMG
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=xYwSiLTcF0Q
Model S vs Dodge Viper SRT-10
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=VLCdP6sMN9k
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      04-17-2013, 12:44 PM   #63
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Mostly, true, but only because the government GETS IN everyone's business. If it stayed out of most industries and let true market capitalism work, more business would stay in business.

In the case of Tesla, the only reason it will stay in business is because the government has some ridiculous notion that CO2 is killing the planet and is promoting electric automobiles as a countermeasure.

Rant over.
True.
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