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      04-11-2013, 09:22 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by dmk08 View Post
I didn't know he was flooring it while jerking the wheel.
Oh I wasn't using his example. Just in general, folks can be driving at higher speeds (70+ mph) in a accord or a Prius and even if they gas it around a bend, nothing really happens because the car is not putting down enough power to the wheels. Now in high HP, RWD cars like ours with the DSC off it can be a totally different result. The point I am making is that technology can save your life and of others so why not use it?
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      04-11-2013, 09:30 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants
Back in the day none of the 911s or 911 turbos I owned had ABS or any form of stability control...so you had to drive within the abilities of the car and your ability to keep it out of the scenery. You drove from the first day with "DSC off", you adapted your driving accordingly and you slowly learnt what you could get away with.
While any experienced driver could drive the M3 safely with the DSC off given enough wheel time, the problem arises when a less experienced driver decides to give it a go and randomly switches off the DSC to have some fun.
Or when you run into an unexpected emergency situation at speed. Sometimes there simply isn't room for the correction.

OP great vids, thx for posting.

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      04-11-2013, 09:53 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by mlhj83 View Post
How is 75mph way quicker than an M3 or any car for that matter? If anything, the Gallardo is a lot more stable given its chassis design and low centre of gravity compared to most other regular vehicles.

Also, why would you need to turn DSC off on the way to a grocery store? Unless of course it's a quiet back road that you are familiar with.

The videos are purely there to illustrate how top notch drivers can't beat DSC/ESP at regular speeds, which clearly means that the average driver or even the enthusiast/track day warrior should be weary of driving with DSC off on public roads when there are other cars or pedestrians around. As no matter how skilled you are, you cannot foresee and compensate for every situation in an uncontrolled environment.
because some ppls on this forum talk about tracking and have dsc off stickers that give them +5hp and need to talk smack on DCT guys
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      04-11-2013, 10:55 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by M3Now! View Post
Or when you run into an unexpected emergency situation at speed. Sometimes there simply isn't room for the correction.
Thats why you drive (non DSC equipped cars) within the cars and your ability.
The problem with DSC is that it gives a false sense of security, all the constant unseen corrections that the system makes when the M3 is being driven at speed gives the driver a confidence in his ability that isn't always warranted....consequently you can arrive at that "unexpected emergency situation" faster than you should.
Coincidentally Tiff Needell used to supervise some Porsche driver/track days in the UK in the eighties. I was at a one of his held at Donnington where we practiced the exact lane change swerve manoeuvre that you see in the videos (without spinning!).
I'm not at all suggesting to switch off DSC but noting that its use carries a danger in itself....You cannae change the laws of physics, go too fast and DSC is not going to save you.
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      04-11-2013, 11:25 AM   #27
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Thats why you drive (non DSC equipped cars) within the cars and your ability.
The problem with DSC is that it gives a false sense of security, all the constant unseen corrections that the system makes when the M3 is being driven at speed gives the driver a confidence in his ability that isn't always warranted....consequently you can arrive at that "unexpected emergency situation" faster than you should.
I understand your point, but don't agree that it's always within your control. If some car suddenly swerves into your path, what's "within your limits" there? Or someone clips your rear corner and suddenly you're sliding straight at that telephone pole? You can't predict that, and if you don't have time to complete the correction, you don't...
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      04-11-2013, 11:42 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by M3Now! View Post
I understand your point, but don't agree that it's always within your control. If some car suddenly swerves into your path, what's "within your limits" there? Or someone clips your rear corner and suddenly you're sliding straight at that telephone pole? You can't predict that, and if you don't have time to complete the correction, you don't...
Agree, this is exactly my point. Nothing to do with one's abilities. Older cars didn't have them and people lived on, mobile phones didn't exist a few decades ago and people lived on, but why deny oneself and others of a safety net if it's there in the first place to help make things safer when the unforeseeable happens. By all means, anyone can turn it off, but do it at the right time and place.

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Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
Thats why you drive (non DSC equipped cars) within the cars and your ability.
The problem with DSC is that it gives a false sense of security, all the constant unseen corrections that the system makes when the M3 is being driven at speed gives the driver a confidence in his ability that isn't always warranted....consequently you can arrive at that "unexpected emergency situation" faster than you should.
Coincidentally Tiff Needell used to supervise some Porsche driver/track days in the UK in the eighties. I was at a one of his held at Donnington where we practiced the exact lane change swerve manoeuvre that you see in the videos (without spinning!).
I'm not at all suggesting to switch off DSC but noting that its use carries a danger in itself....You cannae change the laws of physics, go too fast and DSC is not going to save you.
I agree, at 70ish mph, it is perfectly possible to perform an avoidance manoeuvre without loosing control, but can you 100% guarantee that you can maintain control after such a manoeuvre, especially when there are a lot more variables on the public road.

The benefits of stability systems far outweigh the notion that it may somehow lure people into a false sense of security. I'm willing to bet that the average driver drives no different with it on or off, and probably isn't aware whether the vehicle has one either. DSC on or off, a numpty behind the wheel will always be a numpty, but I rather his car have stability systems on than none at all.

Last edited by mlhj83; 04-11-2013 at 12:05 PM.
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      04-11-2013, 03:18 PM   #29
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The DSC/DTC systems are amazing. Had a chance to see exactly how these work at the Performance Center last week. You're driving around on a wet asphalt circle at 20 mph, on just a 335 sedan, not even an M3. Then, when you plant the accelerator with the systems off, the car does not hesitate to go into full washing machine spin cycle, totally spinning you around. And that's at 20. At 70+? Forget it. You're screwed. It's crazy how fast and easy it happens! Then, when they turn the system back on and you plant the accelerator, nothing. It acts like it's going to for just a split second, then just pulls you right out of it.

I'll have mine on for now, thank you very much...
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      04-11-2013, 03:31 PM   #30
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      04-11-2013, 04:06 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlhj83 View Post
The benefits of stability systems far outweigh the notion that it may somehow lure people into a false sense of security.
I absolutely agree with you but I don't think you are getting my point....its probably because I'm not explaining myself very well.
So perhaps an example might help.
I'm in my third E46 M3, with DSC on, accelerating in 2nd gear along a wet dual carriageway with a very slight (and I mean hardly noticeable) bend.
So at full throttle going through 70mph everything is fine, no wheelspin, car feels great until I hit a slight bump in the road and instantly I am completely sideways...literally at 90 degrees to the direction of the road.
So my point is, if the car didn't have DSC I would been more circumspect and kept a little in reserve, less throttle, short shifted whatever....but instead I put just enough faith in the DSC to get me into serious trouble.
DSC is great until the day comes when it doesn't save your ass.
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      04-11-2013, 07:22 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlhj83 View Post
The benefits of stability systems far outweigh the notion that it may somehow lure people into a false sense of security.
I absolutely agree with you but I don't think you are getting my point....its probably because I'm not explaining myself very well.
So perhaps an example might help.
I'm in my third E46 M3, with DSC on, accelerating in 2nd gear along a wet dual carriageway with a very slight (and I mean hardly noticeable) bend.
So at full throttle going through 70mph everything is fine, no wheelspin, car feels great until I hit a slight bump in the road and instantly I am completely sideways...literally at 90 degrees to the direction of the road.
So my point is, if the car didn't have DSC I would been more circumspect and kept a little in reserve, less throttle, short shifted whatever....but instead I put just enough faith in the DSC to get me into serious trouble.
DSC is great until the day comes when it doesn't save your ass.
I understand, to be fair, while you probably wouldn't have floored it had you had DSC off, it could also be said that it was not DSC's fault you spun, in fact, it probably helped reduce the severity of that spin and you are now are much more aware that DSC is as the manual states as being not able to defy the laws of physics. You would now be going down the same stretch of road, weary of that bump, at a less enthusiastic pace in the wet, and with DSC still on and be even safer for it. We all live and learn.

Last edited by mlhj83; 04-11-2013 at 07:36 PM.
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      04-11-2013, 07:57 PM   #33
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Drive with dsc/esp off within your driving skill/comfort.
Be safe , thats it .
I have been driving rwd gas and diesel trucks for 17 years.
My most recent one is duramax chipped too 800 lbs/feet.
Allways dsc off winter or summer .
My old tuned subaru didnt have esp ....
My 1M and my grand father's GTO didn't have dsc....
My mom's 78 maverick either....Back when people used to go cross country during the northern winters on "all season" radials in powerful rwd cars and trucks either.
Beeing scared and over cautious about cars is like having " mean world syndrome " when you think about visiting other parts of the world , thinking everyone is after you.
All this has nothing to do with good drivers, bad drivers , careful drivers, young drivers , old drivers , talented and scared drivers . Living in this universe is accepting that anything and everything can happen .
I'm not better than the best , nor am I worst the the worst.....But I sure as hell know my limits , and if one day I kill myself or (god forbid) someone else while driving , it'll be within the reasonable limits I impose on myself .
The rest is just the equation trying to even itself out , like Neo would say !!!
People are ALLWAYS gonna crash and die.....ALL walks of life people.
Unsafe AND safe people are gonna die in cars .
And it is subjective to point the " unsafe" sign at someone since some people have absolutely no control and knowledge about driving even when they think they do .....But unfortunately , even if it stinks to think so , some people are better than others at stuff. You just need to know where you stand .
I'm a good golfer , and would love to kick Tiger Woods ass at it! But I never will.
But I will never ever drive with dsc/esp on, unless its pouring or I'm just cruising on the highway .
Much respect to anyone reading this who has ever lost someone in a car accident.

Much
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      04-11-2013, 08:03 PM   #34
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I'm not better than the best , nor am I worst the the worst.....But I sure as hell know my limits , and if one day I kill myself or (god forbid) someone else while driving , it'll be within the reasonable limits I impose on myself .

But I will never ever drive with dsc/esp on, unless its pouring or I'm just cruising on the highway .
That sounds reasonable. At least DSC is on when it's most needed.
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      04-11-2013, 08:11 PM   #35
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That sounds reasonable. At least DSC is on when it's most needed.
Last december , while driving in a small snow storm in slightly below freezing weather , my E46 M3's ass starting giving left and right nudges.
Within three seconds at 55 mph in what I would describe as .5-1 inch of slush,the car spun like the rear was kicked by a Giant . Spun to the shoulder facing traffic ( no traffic though, thank god) .
All lights blinking on the dash, in the first instances , the car not letting me use MY input to correct felt like rape , and although it went quickly, it felt like minutes. I guess i felt insulted that if the car couldn't keep itself from at least "swerving", I should of had a chance myself....
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      04-12-2013, 01:17 AM   #36
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Does it really make that big a difference to say US MDM? Honest question as I haven't had the opportunity to try both
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      04-12-2013, 02:54 AM   #37
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Does it really make that big a difference to say US MDM? Honest question as I haven't had the opportunity to try both
Would love to try each other's on track to see how much different regular MDM is vs ZCP MDM.
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      04-12-2013, 08:45 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blitzboy76
The DSC/DTC systems are amazing. Had a chance to see exactly how these work at the Performance Center last week. You're driving around on a wet asphalt circle at 20 mph, on just a 335 sedan, not even an M3. Then, when you plant the accelerator with the systems off, the car does not hesitate to go into full washing machine spin cycle, totally spinning you around. And that's at 20. At 70+? Forget it. You're screwed. It's crazy how fast and easy it happens! Then, when they turn the system back on and you plant the accelerator, nothing. It acts like it's going to for just a split second, then just pulls you right out of it.

I'll have mine on for now, thank you very much...
Graphic example!!
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      04-12-2013, 04:43 PM   #39
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MDM FTW!

Dynamics with a safety net.

Now that the snow has melted I finally got to turn down the nannies. Man o man. DSC has been sapping the power. Similar driving style, now much more tire spin. I had no idea it was being that nanny aggressive! Yes. I bought the car in the snow, so basically I just received some freebie power so to speak.
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      04-12-2013, 06:33 PM   #40
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Interesting, where I was parking with front wheels in light mud, I couldn't back out. I thought what if I turned DSC off...voila. Car backed out no problem. Too much computer input can be bad.
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      04-13-2013, 11:15 AM   #41
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Interesting, where I was parking with front wheels in light mud, I couldn't back out. I thought what if I turned DSC off...voila. Car backed out no problem. Too much computer input can be bad.
I always take DSC off in the snow. It's too intrusive & doesn't allow you to drive the car.
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      04-13-2013, 02:48 PM   #42
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People are ALLWAYS gonna crash and die.....ALL walks of life people.
Unsafe AND safe people are gonna die in cars .
Three worst arguments for turning DSC off in modern cars on public roads:
- "People are ALLWAYS [sic] gonna crash and die"
- "Old cars didn't have it and people were fine"
- "I'm a good driver and I drive safely" well WTF, why do you turn it off then? and what about OTHER DRIVERS or unseen road hazards?

Both arguments completely ignore the massive reduction in accidents brought about by modern automobile technologies, the most significant of which since the early 2000s is DSC/ESP.

Since DSC/ESP was introduced:

* 42% less accidents involving Mercedes Benz (German Federal Statistics 1999-2003)
* 35% less accidents involving passenger cars (NHTSA)
* 67% less accidents involving SUVs (NHTSA)
* 35% less fatalities involving Volkswagens
* 35% of drivers able to maintain control in accident scenarios (University of Iowa Study)

And that was just with 5 minutes of looking.

So statistically, LESS people die when you leave DSC on! Turn that shit off at the track. There is no point in turning it off on public roads especially when you car comes with MDM which lets you get all kind of tail happy without killing anyone

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      04-13-2013, 04:30 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goat Rodeo View Post
Three worst arguments for turning DSC off in modern cars on public roads:
- "People are ALLWAYS [sic] gonna crash and die"
- "Old cars didn't have it and people were fine"
- "I'm a good driver and I drive safely" well WTF, why do you turn it off then? and what about OTHER DRIVERS or unseen road hazards?

Both arguments completely ignore the massive reduction in accidents brought about by modern automobile technologies, the most significant of which since the early 2000s is DSC/ESP.

Since DSC/ESP was introduced:

* 42% less accidents involving Mercedes Benz (German Federal Statistics 1999-2003)
* 35% less accidents involving passenger cars (NHTSA)
* 67% less accidents involving SUVs (NHTSA)
* 35% less fatalities involving Volkswagens
* 35% of drivers able to maintain control in accident scenarios (University of Iowa Study)

And that was just with 5 minutes of looking.

So statistically, LESS people die when you leave DSC on! Turn that shit off at the track. There is no point in turning it off on public roads especially when you car comes with MDM which lets you get all kind of tail happy without killing anyone
Just cause you can, and it's an option for people to chose so . That's it ! just like smoking kills people and it's legal, just like a car beeing able to go 300 but it's illegal, just like beeing stupidly able to bare arms legally. Peolpe should just not shit their pants over dsc. If you are going to do so , you might as well concentrate your whole life on picketing every other inadequacy of legal/logical life in modern society. Everything else is up to chance .
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      04-13-2013, 08:27 PM   #44
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Just cause you can, and it's an option for people to chose so . That's it ! just like smoking kills people and it's legal
Excellent point. I think people that smoke in front of other people (who don't smoke) are assholes. It's called second hand smoke, and it can kill people, especially in shared homes. I feel the same way about people that drive around on public roads with DSC off for no logical reason.

Forcing your bad choices on others is inconsiderate and selfish.
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