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      09-06-2007, 04:40 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by K3N R3D View Post
Compared to which car manufacturer? AUDI? MB?
Of course they do. Thats why they have CSL versions.
It was sarcasm.
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      09-06-2007, 04:57 PM   #24
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It was sarcasm.
Ahh I didn't get that. Next time. Takes me a while to know the members that use a lot of sarcasm.
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      09-06-2007, 05:28 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by K3N R3D View Post
Hamann already did it. Their version is 560HP and an additional 54 Nm of torque. Top speed limiter was also removed and makes the car approach 200MPH.
Do you know if they achieved the hp increase solely through software mods?
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      09-06-2007, 05:39 PM   #26
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Do you know if they achieved the hp increase solely through software mods?
No, not solely by software modification. Below should answer your question fully.

"Hamann offers its clients three different engine tuning options. The high revving 5-litre V10 with 507 bhp and 520 Nm is limited to 250km/h as standard. By removing the engine limiter, the racy Bavarian can reach a top speed of 300km/h, depending on the wheel and tyre combination. The second option is made up of a combination of removing the engine limiter and optimising the engine characteristics by reprogramming the standard engine computer. Hamann manages to tease an additional 30bhp/26kW and 15 Nm out of the V10 engine. The "HM/M +60" sport kit provides even better performance. The kit is made up of high-performance headers, metallic sports catalytic converters, a sports rear silencer, a sports air filter, an engine map optimisation and the removal of engine restrictions. As the name of the sports kit already suggests, the engine then provides around an additional 60bhp/44kW and can provide an extra
54 Nm of torque, meaning that a notably faster top speed of up to 320km/h can be reached."

http://www.autoblog.com/2006/10/13/p...e-body-bmw-m6/
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      09-06-2007, 05:43 PM   #27
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It really is getting a little out of control.Whats it going to be in 5 years.800-1000hp.
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      09-07-2007, 06:24 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stahlgrau View Post
Yeah, I'm sure BMW is just being lazy. I doubt they put any effort into weight savings.
You missed my point entirely. BMW is not in the power race that Merc and Audi are in, because the M3 only just matches Audi's previous gen car and is completely shaded by Merc's new C-class. My point was rather than save or optimize weight, ala the new M3, Audi chose to dump turbos on the V10 in the RS6 to make their gains. That's what I mean by lazy, because it weighs over 2 tonnes.
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      09-07-2007, 07:36 AM   #29
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My point was rather than save or optimize weight, ala the new M3, Audi chose to dump turbos on the V10 in the RS6 to make their gains. That's what I mean by lazy, because it weighs over 2 tonnes.
From my point of view - and maybe this is what Stahlgrau is getting at too - BMW didn't really do anything different than Audi since the new M3 is heavier than the old one while of course being more powerful, just like the RS6. Sure BMW did put some thought into where they can address weight and lightened things up in places, but that is something they've always done, just as I am sure Audi has. In other words, neither company is being any more lazy than the other, or really showing any more effort in engineering than the other. Both are great efforts. Maybe the big difference this time is BMW seems to be marketing it a little more. And of course, the CF roof is sort of the "poster-boy" for their efforts. But the car is still heavy. And I'll bet the next one is even heavier (again, while probably offering more power). Business as usual - and I am not complaining. I am just happy to be able to buy these cars now before the fuel regs really get out of control.
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      09-07-2007, 08:57 AM   #30
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The argument that BMW unlike Benz and Audi is not in a HP race is simply not true. The conception of the M segment was to produce more HP and all one has to do is look at the M3 to realize that BMW was deservedly proud of producing the most HP in the segment for a long time. Bottom line is; HP is the meat to the burger industry and it would be hard to imagine a fast food joint being proud of giving you less beef!
I disagree that producing HP is cheaper and easier than weight saving measures, if anything in Europe the emmission and noise standards have made it very difficult for manufacturers especially over the past few years. The R & D money going to produce more fuel efficient, powerful cars is tremondous.
The problem is increased gadgets in electronics that is adding weight, taking pleasure out of driving, costing an arm and a leg not too mention making the upkeep of these cars a nightmare when the warranty period is over or even while the cars are relatively new just head over to M5 and M6 forums for proof.
The new M3 is a good example of this, the car has so many different settings that I'm still confused what everything is, or what's an option what's standard and their functions. Do we really need all these different electronic set ups to enjoy a car? Is it really impossible for car manufacturers to set up a street performance car without having upto four different driving modes? Is a carbon roof that merely save 11 pounds the answer? Or is that just another sexy marketing ploy? The out going M3 had a sunroof as standard future and weighed less! This, while BMW proudly keeps saying the new engine is 33 lb lighter!
As I said before, manufacturers are creating HP and electronic gadgets to give affluent buyers bragging rights. The ironic thing is the real car enthusiast will be suckered into paying a lot more for a "light" version, that has been depleted of those gadgets that cost a ton of money to develop and fabricate! and let's not forget the all important removing of a back seat (Black series, GT3) or having less sound proofing or thinner glass.
BTW, shouldn't all these things reduce manufacturing costs?
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      09-07-2007, 09:35 AM   #31
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The new M3 weighs more because the base car is bigger than the outgoing coupe. They at least used weight optimization to ensure it had the best CoG and don't forget, the weights used for the M3 are the EU standard, whilst the Audi's aren't, so in real terms, the M3 is lighter than the RS4, which is what matters, when you consider that car is based on a seven-year-old design. The M5 touring is lighter than the RS6, which at over 2 tonnes, shows no weight reduction efforts what so ever.
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      09-07-2007, 09:49 AM   #32
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I'm not going to get into another one of those BMW against Audi arguments. My point is; ALL manufacturers are guilty of the same practice. This apparently is easier for some of us to face, since we haven't been bitten by the brand loyalty bug.
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      09-07-2007, 10:19 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2002 Tii View Post
I disagree that producing HP is cheaper and easier than weight saving measures, if anything in Europe the emmission and noise standards have made it very difficult for manufacturers especially over the past few years. The R & D money going to produce more fuel efficient, powerful cars is tremondous.
The problem is increased gadgets in electronics that is adding weight...
I agree with most of what you write, except above.

Even with the added gadgets and electronics, it would be physically possible to make these cars lighter by using lightweight materials. See Jaguar for an example: the XJ and XK are well under 4000lbs, and much lighter than the competitors in their segments. And that's just using aluminum. Using Carbon Fibre body panels and such would make them even lighter. I imagine 3000lbs is possible while still meeting safety regulations. The thing is, this is very, very expensive to do, which was exactly my point. And if I recall, Jaguar has has all kinds of growing pains with their aluminum bodied vehicles. This is one reason that they did not go that route with the CX-F. As much as it costs to design ever more powerful engines that still meet emissions and fuel economy requirements, its even more expensive to design and produce lighter vehicles.

If it were not the case, then everyone would be doing it. And we'd have our sub-3k pound M3.
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      09-07-2007, 10:24 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The CSL View Post
...the RS6, which at over 2 tonnes, shows no weight reduction efforts what so ever.
A bold statement. I'd love to see a weight breakdown of components vs. the old model to support that statement.

Do you honestly believe that they just build cars out of whatever is handy at the time, and whatever the end result weighs, oh well, we'll just deal with it? If this is not what you meant by your statement then I am wondering what you did mean?
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      09-07-2007, 10:32 AM   #35
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frankly, I don't have the expertise to know about weight saving as opposed to creating more HP ratio and their financial impact on production costs. You mabe right, I simply don't know.
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      09-07-2007, 07:29 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K3N R3D View Post
No, not solely by software modification. Below should answer your question fully.
Thanks for the info.
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      09-07-2007, 07:52 PM   #37
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in my opinion the reason these hp numbers are getting so high is because people are demanding more and more of everything, not just performance. if everybody just wanted to go faster, im sure we'd be seeing lighter cars. but the target demographic wants performance, comfort, reliability, luxury, efficiency, style, etc. having ALL these areas getting better and better adds on weight, which is why they need to have more power.


us on this board that only care about numbers are a very small segment of who these companies are selling cars to. the average buyer doesnt care about any of this stuff, they buy it because its the most expensive, pretty, etc.
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      09-07-2007, 08:56 PM   #38
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One point...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Using Carbon Fibre body panels and such would make them even lighter.
The current plastic fenders (likely a reinforced plastic-fiberglass composite actually - such as SMC) are probably close to the same weight you would end up with from a CF part. However, CF is very unlikely to be used in any reasonably high production volume vehicles body panels because of its extremely high cost. Structural composites need to be reserved for applications where high strength, stiffness and mass are critical, which is not really the case for fenders.
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      09-07-2007, 09:02 PM   #39
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To expand

Quote:
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The current plastic fenders (likely a reinforced plastic-fiberglass composite actually - such as SMC) ...
-lightweight thermoplastic bumpers-
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      09-07-2007, 10:06 PM   #40
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-lightweight thermoplastic bumpers-
That fits the description of SMC (Sheet Molding Compound).

SMC Definition: A fiber glass reinforced thermosetting compound in sheet form, usually rolled into coils interleaved with plastic film to prevent autoadhesion. Made by dispensing mixed resin, fillers, maturation agent, catalyst and mold release agent onto two moving sheets of polyethylene film. The lower one also contains chopped glass roving or glass mat. SMC can be molded into complex shapes with little scrap.
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      09-07-2007, 10:18 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heyimsexy View Post
in my opinion the reason these hp numbers are getting so high is because people are demanding more and more of everything, not just performance. if everybody just wanted to go faster, im sure we'd be seeing lighter cars. but the target demographic wants performance, comfort, reliability, luxury, efficiency, style, etc. having ALL these areas getting better and better adds on weight, which is why they need to have more power.

us on this board that only care about numbers are a very small segment of who these companies are selling cars to. the average buyer doesnt care about any of this stuff, they buy it because its the most expensive, pretty, etc.
I think most of us here would totally agree with this point of view. It's market-driven. What we don't know is if the manufacturers consistently lightened their cars without increasing hp with each generation, would that create a market for that approach?

Most of this forum undoubtedly see engineering nirvana in something like the Caparo T1, not that mass-produced cars can employ this level of technology. This is the ultimate expression of lightweight technology for the street.

-480 hp @ 10,500 rpm from SC 2.4 liter V8
-1000 hp/ton (twice the P/W of the Veyron)
- 0-60 in 2.5 s.
- 3.0 g. cornering
- 1,035 lbs

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Last edited by GregW / Oregon; 09-07-2007 at 10:46 PM.
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      09-07-2007, 10:29 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregW / Oregon View Post
That fits the description of SMC (Sheet Molding Compound).

SMC Definition: A fiber glass reinforced thermosetting compound in sheet form, usually rolled into coils interleaved with plastic film to prevent autoadhesion. Made by dispensing mixed resin, fillers, maturation agent, catalyst and mold release agent onto two moving sheets of polyethylene film. The lower one also contains chopped glass roving or glass mat. SMC can be molded into complex shapes with little scrap.
Gotcha.
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      09-08-2007, 01:21 AM   #43
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Nice try

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Originally Posted by Epacy View Post
-lightweight thermoplastic bumpers-
Nice try E! You almost got me.

I knew the exact BMW description was in the press release but was too lazy to check it. At the same time I knew what they must be made of.

However, to clarify more fully the front (only) fenders are probably SMC (fiberglass) but the bumpers (structural parts, not covers), if the same as the E46 M3 (likely), are thermoformed and welded CFRTP (continuous fiber reinforced thermoplastic). I saw these bad boys at a composites trade show before the E46 M3 was released. I'd like to know specifically what fiber(s) were used in the bumper. I am fairly sure there was some carbon and some kevlar as well but that was just a quick visual/guess.
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      09-08-2007, 10:59 AM   #44
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To expand even further;

http://composite.about.com/library/P...blhexcel21.htm

Quote:
Originally Posted by About.com: Composites / Plastics

Hexcel Thermoplastic TowFlex Featured in BMW M3 Bumber

BMW M3 bumpers molded from Hexcel Composites' TowFlex®& continuous fiber reinforced thermoplastic materials (CFRTP) have won three industry awards. The front and rear bumpers, molded by Jacob Composites of Wilhelmsdorf, Germany, won the "Best Use of Composites for Market Expansion" award at the Composite Fabricators Association "Composites 2001" show and the "Automotive Multipart Assembly" award at the Society of Plastics Engineers annual thermoforming conference. Most recently, the German Plastics Industry Congregation (GKV) presented Jacob Composites with the "Innovation Award" for Technical Parts at the opening session of K2001 in Dusseldorf.

The new CFRTP bumpers were developed to increase energy absorption and reduce weight for the M3 sports coupe. The bumper systems had to fit within the same space and have the same attachment points as previous metal bumpers. A group of three companies based in Wilhelmsdorf, Germany - Jacob Composites GmbH, Advanced Composite Systems GmbH (AC.S), and composite consultants – worked with BMW M designers to develop a bumper system using CFRTP materials. Hexcel Composites' TowFlex E-glass/nylon 6 fabrics were selected to meet the demanding performance, manufacturing cost, and recycling requirements. The resulting bumper system demonstrated improved crash performance with a 60% weight saving.

The manufacturing advantages of high speed CFRTP molding and thermoplastic welding were a key factor enabling mass production of the bumpers. AC.S produces flat sheet stock from multiple layers of TowFlex fabric in their unique continuous compression molding process. Continuous tubular profiles for the bumper crush columns are produced using the same process. The flat sheets are supplied to Jacob Composites for forming bumper beams and crush column boxes in a high-speed matched-mold thermoforming process. The bumper beams, crush columns, and crush column boxes are assembled using high frequency welding. Complete bumper assemblies are supplied directly to the BMW plant in Regensburg, Germany.

Hexcel worked closely with AC.S to develop specific TowFlex products for the bumper system. "We are very pleased with the success of our combined efforts on this project," said Tim Greene, Marketing Manager, Hexcel Composites- Applied Fiber Systems. "This is a strong example of our focus on customer responsiveness and technical support to develop new applications for our thermoplastic materials."

TowFlex CFRTP materials are used to produce a wide range of products. Applications include recreational equipment, industrial pump components, orthopedic braces, medical devices, and aerospace/military parts. Benefits of available TowFlex products include rapid processing, high impact resistance, low thermal expansion, good vibration damping, and resistance to harsh high temperature or corrosive environments.

TowFlex materials are produced by spreading and powder coating continuous glass, carbon, or aramid reinforcement fibers with thermoplastic particles. The uniformly distributed resin particles are melt-fused to the reinforcement fibers. This process results in a flexible, drapeable material that can be produced with a variety of thermoplastic resins including polypropylene, nylon 6, PPS, PEI, and PEEK. Hexcel provides TowFlex materials in a variety of product forms including drapeable fabrics, braided sleeving, unidirectional tape, and continuous towpreg. TowFlex products offer performance, processing, and cost advantages compared with other material forms or metal.

Nice PDF on composites specifically related to composites on the M3 CSL. Fig 5 most likely represents the kind of bumper that is on the E92 M3.

Composite PDF
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