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      04-02-2013, 10:29 AM   #23
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Lots of good advice here from actual instructors. I would just like to add: take into consideration the track and conditions. It is one thing if the track is dry with very few walls to hit. It is another if it is wet at a track that will eat your car if you make a mistake. I am not familiar with the tracks you are going to but there are two in the Pacific NW (PIR &PR) that require extra precaution. I have a couple of friends that have totaled their newer M3 and another that totaled not one but two Vipers.........in the wet, in the typical spot people mess up. Not to scare any newbies but you might not understand grip levels until you have 3+ years under your belt running all year in all conditions. So listen to your local instructors/organizers. Ask questions about conditions and where people make mistakes. Also understand that some of the advice here is is from a warm and dry climate. If you do run with traction control or MDM just be aware of when it steps in and try to keep it from engaging. Turn it off as soon as you are comfortable and the conditions allow.
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      04-02-2013, 11:23 PM   #24
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I used to be strongly on the side of "Turn that sh1t off, it's only making you feel like a hero." I have the good fortune/stupidity of getting to work with advanced students, and I've had my fair share of frank but PC conversations about drivers aids.

But....then I started driving something with a bit more at stake, and something that is far harder to keep pointed straight....so I'll admit, I kept the PSM system at the first De until I had the confidence things were not going to end in tears. As usual...turning it off was a non event, and actually led to a few seconds per lap faster times and far more enjoyment....but I know the fear factor and resistance to believe in your own abilities. I'm still going to push people to believe in themselves, but I have a bit more empathy now.
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      04-03-2013, 11:37 PM   #25
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I'd say that for beginners, keep MDM on. As for bad habits, there are far too many fundamentals to learn first, IMHO, before concerning oneself over how to handle an oversteer. Learn the line. Learn how the shifting weight of the car feels as you run the course. Let the DSC nannying teach you how to move more smoothly and quickly through corners first.

Then step up to turning DSC off, when you have a bit of a feel. I'd hate to be the one to say turn DSC off and have a novice spin right in front of another novice.

Remember those other novices out there. The ones that have learned how to handle their cars well have moved up to a more advanced run group.

To me, DSC-off is a more intermediate learning step. I'm sure there are Crash Jacksons who will disagree.
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      04-04-2013, 10:28 AM   #26
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For a first HPDE? Keep it on. You'll have about 100 other things to worry about and focus on. I look at DSC as more of a learning tool than a crutch for a first timer. Trust me...you can still go off track with DSC on.

But IMO it really depends on your goals. If you have previous car control experience (clinics, auto-x), want to race or have a goal that involves building skills AND you are willing to sacrifice the car then I would say that you really need to turn it off from the beginning. HPDE insurance is never a bad idea...check out BMWCCA for Loctite or something...they have pretty reasonable rates.

If you're there to have fun, keep MDM on. It will scare the crap out of you if you screw up but will keep things mostly in control.

I can say from my owm personal experience, I kept DSC on in my 330 for the longest. This became an issue because you get significantly faster pretty quickly. So by the time I was in the intermediate groups the speed and stakes were a lot higher when I started to plateau because of DSC and the lack of car control skills. If I had just started with it off then I would have made faster progress.

I ended up doing auto-x and a drift event to really learn car control which has been a tremendous help.

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      04-04-2013, 02:19 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
For a first HPDE? Keep it on. You'll have about 100 other things to worry about and focus on. I look at DSC as more of a learning tool than a crutch for a first timer. Trust me...you can still go off track with DSC on.

But IMO it really depends on your goals. If you have previous car control experience (clinics, auto-x), want to race or have a goal that involves building skills AND you are willing to sacrifice the car then I would say that you really need to turn it off from the beginning. HPDE insurance is never a bad idea...check out BMWCCA for Loctite or something...they have pretty reasonable rates.

If you're there to have fun, keep MDM on. It will scare the crap out of you if you screw up but will keep things mostly in control.

I can say from my owm personal experience, I kept DSC on in my 330 for the longest. This became an issue because you get significantly faster pretty quickly. So by the time I was in the intermediate groups the speed and stakes were a lot higher when I started to plateau because of DSC and the lack of car control skills. If I had just started with it off then I would have made faster progress.

I ended up doing auto-x and a drift event to really learn car control which has been a tremendous help.



One of my goals is specifically to learn improved car control. I'm going to discuss it my instructor and go from there. I'm leaning towards suggesting m-track mode, but we'll see what my instructor thinks.
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      04-04-2013, 02:32 PM   #28
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MDM is fine. The instructor might not and shouldn't really tell you either way...its a liability issue.

You can learn car control on the track but I think it will take most a long time. It is much faster to do it off the track in a car control clinic or auto-x. Speeds are lower and the area off "track" is a known quantity...it should be pavement and cones. Vrs on track...who knows. Drainage ditches are pretty common.

If you want to learn car control REALLY fast...go drifting. I honestly think this is the best way to do it. You learn how to steer the car with the rear tires and throttle.

When the back end loses grip and starts to come around, I think most make the mistake of trying to still control the car with the steering wheel by "correcting" when you really need to use the throttle to regain control. All you do with the steering wheel is keep the front wheels pointed down track so when the back end stop rotating you can collect the rear end and get things back in alignment. That's what drifting will quickly teach you.
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      04-04-2013, 03:18 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
MDM is fine. The instructor might not and shouldn't really tell you either way...its a liability issue.

You can learn car control on the track but I think it will take most a long time. It is much faster to do it off the track in a car control clinic or auto-x. Speeds are lower and the area off "track" is a known quantity...it should be pavement and cones. Vrs on track...who knows. Drainage ditches are pretty common.

If you want to learn car control REALLY fast...go drifting. I honestly think this is the best way to do it. You learn how to steer the car with the rear tires and throttle.

When the back end loses grip and starts to come around, I think most make the mistake of trying to still control the car with the steering wheel by "correcting" when you really need to use the throttle to regain control. All you do with the steering wheel is keep the front wheels pointed down track so when the back end stop rotating you can collect the rear end and get things back in alignment. That's what drifting will quickly teach you.
The first time a car control clinic comes around the area I plan on going. The nearest one I found this year was 300 miles away.

With the drifting thing, are the clinics on it or do you just go to parking lots?
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      04-04-2013, 04:24 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmw16 View Post
The first time a car control clinic comes around the area I plan on going. The nearest one I found this year was 300 miles away.

With the drifting thing, are the clinics on it or do you just go to parking lots?


Sign up for the DelVal HPDE at Summit Point nthat the OP is going to. IIRC - they are running skidpad for at least two of the three days days (confirm that) - AND its nearby to you.
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      04-04-2013, 07:05 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmw16 View Post
With the drifting thing, are the clinics on it or do you just go to parking lots?
That's a little trickier. You'll have to search for a local drifiting club(s)...google it. I'd also check out the facilities as well. Drifting is less regulated so proceed with caution. It should be a large empty lot, there are some idiots who insist on avoiding light poles...don't go there. No parking barriers, lightpoles, etc. The real key is to look for something that is a series as well as a practice that graduates people to Formula Drift. Those type of groups will have the good instructors (VERY IMPORTANT...SECOND TO SAFETY).

I am lucky here in TX there is a pretty well ran drifting "club", Fabricated Motorsports, that is a 4-5 part series that graduates 1-2 drivers to Formula Drift. I got an instructor who was fantastic. I would have been lost without him.

If you do drift you'll probably discover that even pro's will have a VERY hard time keeping a DCT car sideways. No clutch kick, no ebrake...just all right foot. And the car handles very well and really does want to straighten up.

I learned sooooo much in the 2 hours there.
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      04-04-2013, 07:23 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Estoril Blue
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmw16 View Post
The first time a car control clinic comes around the area I plan on going. The nearest one I found this year was 300 miles away.

With the drifting thing, are the clinics on it or do you just go to parking lots?


Sign up for the DelVal HPDE at Summit Point nthat the OP is going to. IIRC - they are running skidpad for at least two of the three days days (confirm that) - AND its nearby to you.
I am the OP
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      04-04-2013, 07:49 PM   #33
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I am the OP
Whoops - missed that.

Your skidpad time should help a lot. Talk to me at the event for a recommendation on how you might get some extra skidpad time while there.
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      04-04-2013, 07:50 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmw16 View Post
The first time a car control clinic comes around the area I plan on going. The nearest one I found this year was 300 miles away.

With the drifting thing, are the clinics on it or do you just go to parking lots?
At least pick a parking lot without lamp posts


Last edited by CanAutM3; 04-04-2013 at 09:06 PM.
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      04-04-2013, 08:38 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmw16 View Post
The first time a car control clinic comes around the area I plan on going. The nearest one I found this year was 300 miles away.

With the drifting thing, are the clinics on it or do you just go to parking lots?
At least pick a parking lot without lamp posts

Lol..
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      04-04-2013, 09:03 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmw16 View Post
The first time a car control clinic comes around the area I plan on going. The nearest one I found this year was 300 miles away.

With the drifting thing, are the clinics on it or do you just go to parking lots?
At least pick a parking lot without lamp posts

Lol...lightpoles = bad
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      04-04-2013, 10:56 PM   #37
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Quote:
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At least pick a parking lot without lamp posts

that's one of the worst parking lot fails I've seen.
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      04-04-2013, 11:02 PM   #38
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that's one of the worst parking lot fails I've seen.
yeah he didnt even see it coming or slow.
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      04-05-2013, 12:03 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
I always leave it up to the student to choose the DSC mode they prefer.

My recommendation is that for the first time you go out on the track, keep MDM (or DSC if you don't have the MDM option) activated. Once you are comfortable with the track layout and the proper driving line and if you feel up to it, turn the nannies off. The sooner you drive without the aids, the better habits and reflexes you will develop.

I've had to work very hard with some students that had become decently quick with driving aids, but had developed terribly bad habits that the electronics were hiding. The worst habit is pinching the steering wheel while applying throttle coming out of a turn. With DSC, you wouldn't feel anything. But with DSC off, this could lead to a big moment on corner exit.

Have fun and report back
what's "pinching the wheel"?
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      04-05-2013, 12:08 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdosu
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
I always leave it up to the student to choose the DSC mode they prefer.

My recommendation is that for the first time you go out on the track, keep MDM (or DSC if you don't have the MDM option) activated. Once you are comfortable with the track layout and the proper driving line and if you feel up to it, turn the nannies off. The sooner you drive without the aids, the better habits and reflexes you will develop.

I've had to work very hard with some students that had become decently quick with driving aids, but had developed terribly bad habits that the electronics were hiding. The worst habit is pinching the steering wheel while applying throttle coming out of a turn. With DSC, you wouldn't feel anything. But with DSC off, this could lead to a big moment on corner exit.

Have fun and report back
what's "pinching the wheel"?
Keeping the wheel turned in or not unwinding it as you complete your turning and begin to add throttle.
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      04-05-2013, 12:13 PM   #41
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Quote:
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what's "pinching the wheel"?
When you are coming out of a corner, you need to progressively unwind the steering as you are applying more throttle.

This is key to maintaining grip within the friction circle boundaries and not lose rear tire traction.

"Pinching" the steering wheel implies that the driver is keeping a fixed lock on the steering wheel while applying more throttle. This can result in a sudden snap oversteer situation .
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      04-05-2013, 12:30 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
I always leave it up to the student to choose the DSC mode they prefer.

My recommendation is that for the first time you go out on the track, keep MDM (or DSC if you don't have the MDM option) activated. Once you are comfortable with the track layout and the proper driving line and if you feel up to it, turn the nannies off. The sooner you drive without the aids, the better habits and reflexes you will develop.

I've had to work very hard with some students that had become decently quick with driving aids, but had developed terribly bad habits that the electronics were hiding. The worst habit is pinching the steering wheel while applying throttle coming out of a turn. With DSC, you wouldn't feel anything. But with DSC off, this could lead to a big moment on corner exit.

Have fun and report back
I could not agree more with this statement... And I have been guilty myself of exactly this mistake!! I had DSC off so I learned with a spin and a lot of dust in the car, but I was fortunate to not hit anybody or anything.
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      04-05-2013, 02:09 PM   #43
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At least pick a parking lot without lamp posts

LOL!

Even worse, I think he boiled his power steering fluid too!
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      04-05-2013, 02:12 PM   #44
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Even worse, I think he boiled his power steering fluid too!


So that is where all that smoke is coming from
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