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      04-02-2013, 01:48 PM   #1
kaotik182
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Front Sway Bar Only - H&R or Dinan?

I am looking to get a front sway bar only for my E90 M3 with competition package, so no rear sway bar. I searched but did not find too much info on them on here. My m3 is my daily driver, which I use for autocrosses and driving education track events. Anyone with this setup of standard or competition package springs with only a H&R or dinan front sway bar? This front sway bar only idea came up after I read the roundel about turner's lime rock m3. I read the info about the sway bars on turner's website and dinan's website. I emailed them and both recommend this setup but would like some first hand experience from you guys and gals. Thanks in advance for the info.
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      04-02-2013, 01:55 PM   #2
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I was considering same thing. Is this a possible addition that can be made to reduce understeer without going with camber plates or any other suspension modification?
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      04-02-2013, 02:44 PM   #3
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Subscribed. That was a great article in Roundel.
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      04-02-2013, 03:08 PM   #4
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Kaotik, much like you I do a few events a year and improving cornering while reducing understeer is a priority for me. The Roundel/Turner/LR article introduced me to a few cheaper mods that would get me in the game without breaking the wallet. My first order is to install KW sleeves and SS brake lines. I went down a long road of researching different springs, talking to vendors, clients, and other enthusiasts. KW received much warmer welcomes over H&R. I know this doesn't relate much to your sway bar question... regardless, Turner and Dinan can both be trusted.
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      04-02-2013, 04:42 PM   #5
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I just added the Dinan front sway to my Stage 1 suspension and I think the effect was noticeable when it comes to understeer and body roll. I haven't pushed the car REALLY hard, but I can definitely tell the difference.
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      04-02-2013, 05:25 PM   #6
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I'm using the RD Sport front bar, you can buy it alone directly from RDSport. Stiffer and with more adjustability than the other options out there.
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      04-02-2013, 05:53 PM   #7
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Eibach is coming up with sway bars for the E9x. They will literally be out in a matter of weeks. I will have a set installed right away and will be happy to post my impressions (I track a lot )
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      04-02-2013, 08:49 PM   #8
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I have the dinan sway sitting in the living room with some bimmerworld front control/thrust arm bearings, going in friday. Hopefully a noticeable difference in some way between the two.
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      04-03-2013, 12:44 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meko View Post
I was considering same thing. Is this a possible addition that can be made to reduce understeer without going with camber plates or any other suspension modification?
That's what I would like to know. Hopefully less understeer. Preferably neutral with zcp springs. I don't want to change springs. Was planning on only pulling the front pins for more camber. Trying to stay in stock class for autox, which allows front bar as only suspension mod.
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Originally Posted by thekurgan View Post
Subscribed. That was a great article in Roundel.
Yes, it was. I like how Marsal talked about the mods he would do to a stock M3 especially the front sway bar.
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Originally Posted by JJunkins View Post
Kaotik, much like you I do a few events a year and improving cornering while reducing understeer is a priority for me. The Roundel/Turner/LR article introduced me to a few cheaper mods that would get me in the game without breaking the wallet. My first order is to install KW sleeves and SS brake lines. I went down a long road of researching different springs, talking to vendors, clients, and other enthusiasts. KW received much warmer welcomes over H&R. I know this doesn't relate much to your sway bar question... regardless, Turner and Dinan can both be trusted.
SS brake lines are in the future if I go BBK. Right now just ATE brake fluid and stoptech street performance pads. Heard a lot of good things about KW.
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I just added the Dinan front sway to my Stage 1 suspension and I think the effect was noticeable when it comes to understeer and body roll. I haven't pushed the car REALLY hard, but I can definitely tell the difference.
Let us know how it feels when you get a chance to push it in a safe environment like the track or autox. I'm a little worried about the dinan being a tad too much front bar compared to H&R for stock or zcp suspension. Reasoning is from a review where someone said the dinan bar resulted in oversteer, which is the last thing I want. Not sure what suspension he was running. At same time, did not see any reviews of the H&R except turners.
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Originally Posted by Richbot View Post
I'm using the RD Sport front bar, you can buy it alone directly from RDSport. Stiffer and with more adjustability than the other options out there.
Is the front bar all you have for suspension mods? If yes, how's the handling feel and at what setting/hole? Also, any noise from the urethane bushings? The 30 mm size from the RD Sport threw me off when comparing it to the dinan and H&R but just noticed it was hallow, so it negates the size difference some what.
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Originally Posted by kaiv View Post
Eibach is coming up with sway bars for the E9x. They will literally be out in a matter of weeks. I will have a set installed right away and will be happy to post my impressions (I track a lot )
Keep us posted. I didn't know eibach was coming out with them. Do you have any info on what size the bars will be and if they will be solid or hollow? Heard rear one is a pain to install.
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I have the dinan sway sitting in the living room with some bimmerworld front control/thrust arm bearings, going in friday. Hopefully a noticeable difference in some way between the two.
From research, you should notice a difference with the dinan bar. What other suspension mods do you have already installed?
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      04-03-2013, 04:52 AM   #10
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Stock zcp with pins pulled, also pss 255/275 setup. Car needs an alignment anyway so figured i would have the shop throw on the bearings since the front would be apart for the swaybar install.
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      04-03-2013, 06:18 AM   #11
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How should a harder front sway bar reduce understeer?

It will reduce body roll and make the front more agile but I don't see why it should reduce untersteer. A harder sway bar reduces the mechanical grip on the axle where it is mounted.
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      04-03-2013, 09:34 AM   #12
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The larger front bar results in less roll and better camber angle for the front tires, and it especially results in better transient response (i.e. slaloms in autox). I pulled the alignment pins, max'd negative camber (got -1.7 degrees), and installed the Dinan front bar (btw, unlike others' experience, there was zero preload on my stock sway bar and the Dinan bar once it was in place, so I had no need for adjustable end links).

I'm running the car in F-stock this year, tire class, with BFG Rivals. So far, I'm very impressed with the car on course. I can't actually imagine it without the front bar as turn-in rotation was fine as is. In pure steady state cornering conditions (i.e. mid-corner), I imagine there is a bit more understeer due to the bar, but it's easily manageable. Slaloms are a hoot though! Also, this thing will really put down the power on corner exit -- really impressed with the M3.

When you do the install, take off those side pods on each side first and that will allow you to put a wrench on the weird wire supports (x2 each side) for the center undertray.
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      04-03-2013, 05:26 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaotik182 View Post
]
Keep us posted. I didn't know eibach was coming out with them. Do you have any info on what size the bars will be and if they will be solid or hollow? Heard rear one is a pain to install.
Looks like I'll the front bar on the car by my next track day on the 14th. Will post my impressions
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      04-03-2013, 05:32 PM   #14
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I have MCS 2-way remote reservoir dampers as well, otherwise stock other than alignment.

I did have some noise from the bushings at the very beginning but a little lithium grease took care of that and no problems since.

The stiffer swaybar helps keep the suspension in its happy place when you're using stock-ish spring rates. Too much body roll and you start decambering the tire and using the outside edge of the tire, so keeping body roll to a minimum in the front does help with front grip, and definitely helped on my car, along with better transitional stability for the violent maneuvers during autocross and better grip on acceleration.
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      04-03-2013, 05:33 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meko View Post
I was considering same thing. Is this a possible addition that can be made to reduce understeer without going with camber plates or any other suspension modification?
I doubt it will reduce understeer. More chance that it would increase it.
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      04-03-2013, 05:46 PM   #16
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I doubt it will reduce understeer. More chance that it would increase it.
That has not been my experience or that of most others who have actually done it.
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      04-03-2013, 07:02 PM   #17
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Conflicting opinions here. I personally would like to reduce understeer (a little realistically) without spring or shock changes. Two track events a year is all, but understeer surfaces even on the street to early for me. Perhaps just the pins is the best I can do, or its simply not possible to accomplish this reduction. The front sway bar would be something I would change IF it will reduce understeer. Thoughts. Sorry to thread jack but sounds like OP wants the same thing
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      04-03-2013, 07:16 PM   #18
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Another option is using OEM E93 front swaybar.

E93 M3 OEM sway bar is thicker than E90/92 M3s but slightly thinner than Dinan.
But I think the cost saving was about 1/2.
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      04-03-2013, 10:15 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S65Tom View Post
Stock zcp with pins pulled, also pss 255/275 setup. Car needs an alignment anyway so figured i would have the shop throw on the bearings since the front would be apart for the swaybar install.
I got the same tire setup pss 255/275 also. What a difference these tires make. From factory, I got the contis which were really bad for autoxing. Will be pulling pins in a couple weeks too. I never heard of the bearing mod until you mentioned it. Now its on my future mod list. Let me know how the car feels after bar install. Hopefully in the near future, you got an autox or track day lined up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSBM5 View Post
The larger front bar results in less roll and better camber angle for the front tires, and it especially results in better transient response (i.e. slaloms in autox). I pulled the alignment pins, max'd negative camber (got -1.7 degrees), and installed the Dinan front bar (btw, unlike others' experience, there was zero preload on my stock sway bar and the Dinan bar once it was in place, so I had no need for adjustable end links).

I'm running the car in F-stock this year, tire class, with BFG Rivals. So far, I'm very impressed with the car on course. I can't actually imagine it without the front bar as turn-in rotation was fine as is. In pure steady state cornering conditions (i.e. mid-corner), I imagine there is a bit more understeer due to the bar, but it's easily manageable. Slaloms are a hoot though! Also, this thing will really put down the power on corner exit -- really impressed with the M3.

When you do the install, take off those side pods on each side first and that will allow you to put a wrench on the weird wire supports (x2 each side) for the center undertray.
Thanks for the feedback. I was going to almost cross Dinan of my list, which now includes the RD sport front bar. Also thanks for the tip during install. I remember that wire support when I had to pull out my undertray to fix it. Hit a tire alligator someone flung up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaiv View Post
Looks like I'll the front bar on the car by my next track day on the 14th. Will post my impressions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richbot View Post
I have MCS 2-way remote reservoir dampers as well, otherwise stock other than alignment.

I did have some noise from the bushings at the very beginning but a little lithium grease took care of that and no problems since.

The stiffer swaybar helps keep the suspension in its happy place when you're using stock-ish spring rates. Too much body roll and you start decambering the tire and using the outside edge of the tire, so keeping body roll to a minimum in the front does help with front grip, and definitely helped on my car, along with better transitional stability for the violent maneuvers during autocross and better grip on acceleration.
I am leaning very much to the RD Sport front because of you. I am assuming you just got the front only. I like the adjustability, but wonder how this front bar only compares to the H&R and Dinan in terms of % stiffness. The numbers RD sport mentions seems to take both front and rear.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richbot View Post
That has not been my experience or that of most others who have actually done it.
+1
Quote:
Originally Posted by meko View Post
Conflicting opinions here. I personally would like to reduce understeer (a little realistically) without spring or shock changes. Two track events a year is all, but understeer surfaces even on the street to early for me. Perhaps just the pins is the best I can do, or its simply not possible to accomplish this reduction. The front sway bar would be something I would change IF it will reduce understeer. Thoughts. Sorry to thread jack but sounds like OP wants the same thing
Yes, I want the magic bullet front sway bar. Stock springs and shocks with neutral or very slight understeer from a simple mod.
Quote:
Originally Posted by isugoo View Post
Another option is using OEM E93 front swaybar.

E93 M3 OEM sway bar is thicker than E90/92 M3s but slightly thinner than Dinan.
But I think the cost saving was about 1/2.
Check out Turner's sway bar comparison. Not sure it's worth it to swap out for a 6% stiffer bar. The Dinan is solid and bigger than H&R, so it will be stiffer than H&R.
http://www.turnermotorsport.com/t-te...sway-bars.aspx
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      04-04-2013, 07:03 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaotik182 View Post
Check out Turner's sway bar comparison. Not sure it's worth it to swap out for a 6% stiffer bar. The Dinan is solid and bigger than H&R, so it will be stiffer than H&R.
http://www.turnermotorsport.com/t-te...sway-bars.aspx
I agree on it not being worth it to install the E93 bar. The H&R bar though is 42.52% stiffer and...

Here are some thoughts I posted in Richbot's autox thread about bar stiffness comparisons:

I tried to run some numbers on the stock versus various aftermarket options, but the stock bar is hollow, and without cutting one in half, I don't know the inside diameter. So I ran across a FAQ on Turner's web site on the H&R front bar where someone supposedly did the calculation for a 27mm solid H&R versus stock, and they claim that one is 1.425 times the stiffness of the stock one. I assume the moment arm is equivalent to the stock bar.

I'm looking at all of this since I ended up buying a Dinan 28mm solid front bar on sale for 40% off, and I'm wondering if this will prove to be too much front bar on street tires. Interestingly, Dinan adds this bar to their spring kit (i.e. moving from their stage 1 to stage 2) without changing the rear bar, so clearly a car with just their springs versus springs + front bar is going to be a good bit different, but they must feel it isn't too much bar. All that is an aside...

So if I assume Turner's H&R vs stock calcs are correct, then the Dinan 28mm bar (same moment arm as stock) should be: 1.4252 x (28^4 / 27^4) = 1.65. Hence it (Dinan bar) is 65% stiffer than the stock bar.




Direct link to post in Rich's autocross thread.


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      04-06-2013, 12:06 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richbot
Quote:
Originally Posted by radiantm3 View Post
I doubt it will reduce understeer. More chance that it would increase it.
That has not been my experience or that of most others who have actually done it.
It depends on what situation you are talking about. In autox, with violent transitions, and stock camber settings, it make reduce under steer. At track days, I noticed more steady state under steer when I swapped to a larger front bar, even with -2.3 degrees of camber (Dinan stage 3)

I am going to give the Dinan bar a shot with my e92 and kw clubsports. I am a lot lower than with the Dinan suspension so in a much worse part of the camber curve (although I do have -2.7 degrees of camber up front now) so will be interesting to see.
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      04-06-2013, 01:48 AM   #22
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I have the dinan springs and front sway bar (Stage 2) on non-EDC. IMO...sways are a waste. The sway bar is not the issue. Get vorshlag or GC camber plates and a square tire setup if you want to dial out what very little understeer is present. I prefer the Vorshlag plates.

In fact, I plan to go back to the stock front sway bar.
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