BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > E90/E92 M3 Technical Topics > Track / Autocross / Dragstrip / Driving Techniques
 
GT Haus
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      04-01-2013, 03:31 PM   #1
dmw16
Captain
 
Drives: 2005 ///M3
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Maryland

Posts: 930
iTrader: (1)

DSC On or Off for HPDE?

I have my first HPDE coming up in a few weeks (3 days @ Summit Point) and was wondering if the instructors typically prefer you to go with DSC on or off?

I'd think off would be better so that I can learn to control slips/slides/etc rather than letting the DSC step in, especially learning this skill at lower speeds and early on.

Of course, whatever the instructor wants is what I will do, but I was just curious how DSC is typically handled?

If it makes a difference, this is in an E46.

Thanks.
dmw16 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-01-2013, 03:34 PM   #2
M3 Esq
Lieutenant Colonel
 
M3 Esq's Avatar
 
Drives: Fast
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: CT

Posts: 1,600
iTrader: (4)

Garage List
I would say it depends on the instructor. I have had instructors ask that I enable MDM for saftey and I have also had instructors ask me to turn off DSC altogether. Instructors that asked me to turn it off told me that I wouldn't learn anything with DSC on. You can certianly discuss it with your instructor and see what makes sense for the both of you.
M3 Esq is online now   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      04-01-2013, 05:38 PM   #3
The HACK
Garland Operator 7G
 
The HACK's Avatar
 
Drives: 2006 MZ4C, 2013 Veloster Turbo
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Jerry Brown's little tree-huggin' state

Posts: 3,339
iTrader: (1)

Whatever you do, make sure you emphasize with your instructor that you'd like to turn off DSC to go "flat out." They'll really appreciate it.
__________________
Quote:
No way I'd ever take my BMW to the track.
Quote:
Then why do you have $3,000 worth of suspension mods on your car?
Quote:
...
-Overheard at the last B****rfest.
The HACK is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-01-2013, 05:43 PM   #4
jbraslins
Latvian Gangstah
 
jbraslins's Avatar
 
Drives: 2015 F80 SO M3 M-DCT, ETA July
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Wake Forest, NC

Posts: 324
iTrader: (0)

I think MDM/DSC have their place. When new to track, you'll gain much more from learning the line and feeling comfortable. Once you have several sessions under your belt and feel comfy, you can always turn it off and and pay attention to what changes.

I'd say do not turn it off unless you feel it fighting you/impeding your drive out of corners.
__________________
[ORDERED] 2015 Sakhir Orange F80 BMW M3 M-DCT
[SOLD] 2010 Alpine White E90 M3 M-DCT
[SOLD] 2002 TiAg E46 M3 manual

Last edited by jbraslins; 04-01-2013 at 05:48 PM.
jbraslins is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-01-2013, 06:07 PM   #5
radiantm3
Apex Everything!
 
radiantm3's Avatar
 
Drives: >1000 HP in my garage
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Danville, CA

Posts: 3,725
iTrader: (5)

Garage List
2011 E92 M3  [4.80]
2013 BMW X5M  [4.33]
I'd keep MDM on at a minimum until you learn how to properly react and correct a potential spin. I had a friend who knew in theory how to correct a spin, and did a few track days with DSC off with no problems. Then one day it happened and he just wasn't fast enough and spun into a wall.

It's pretty much a fact that once you drive with DSC off and start pushing to go faster, the rear will come out more often and you need to be ready for that situation.
__________________
(1:40 @ Laguna Seca, 2:03 @ Thunderhill, 1:52 @ Infineon)
radiantm3 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      04-01-2013, 06:25 PM   #6
Porschefile
Major
 
Porschefile's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Tennessee

Posts: 1,222
iTrader: (6)

I never advise students for or against DSC, but I prefer them to run DSC off on their own if they have any kind of decent car control. DSC full-on builds bad habits, habits that take a lot of time to fix later on as the driver progresses. MDM is a little better, but still allows drivers to progress too quickly without ever having to learn skills I consider essential, such as throttle modulation and countersteering. The E9X chassis is REALLY easy to drive fast, and one of the best cars in that performance bracket to learn to really drive (DSC off). YMMV.

To counter my own point, I will say that if you are a completely green student with zero experience, I'd probably suggest MDM on. First track day is overwhelming, and would be ruined if you had a crash.
Porschefile is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-01-2013, 06:27 PM   #7
CanAutM3
Brigadier General
 
CanAutM3's Avatar
 
Drives: 2008 E92 M3 (2015 M4 on order)
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Montreal

Posts: 3,476
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2008 BMW M3  [0.00]
2006 Audi S4  [0.00]
I always leave it up to the student to choose the DSC mode they prefer.

My recommendation is that for the first time you go out on the track, keep MDM (or DSC if you don't have the MDM option) activated. Once you are comfortable with the track layout and the proper driving line and if you feel up to it, turn the nannies off. The sooner you drive without the aids, the better habits and reflexes you will develop.

I've had to work very hard with some students that had become decently quick with driving aids, but had developed terribly bad habits that the electronics were hiding. The worst habit is pinching the steering wheel while applying throttle coming out of a turn. With DSC, you wouldn't feel anything. But with DSC off, this could lead to a big moment on corner exit.

Have fun and report back
CanAutM3 is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      04-01-2013, 06:28 PM   #8
CanAutM3
Brigadier General
 
CanAutM3's Avatar
 
Drives: 2008 E92 M3 (2015 M4 on order)
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Montreal

Posts: 3,476
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2008 BMW M3  [0.00]
2006 Audi S4  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
Whatever you do, make sure you emphasize with your instructor that you'd like to turn off DSC to go "flat out." They'll really appreciate it.
CanAutM3 is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      04-01-2013, 06:28 PM   #9
dmw16
Captain
 
Drives: 2005 ///M3
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Maryland

Posts: 930
iTrader: (1)

Thanks for the feedback everyone. I think for the e46 the track mode on the zcp car is my equivalent of MDM? Allows some slip before stepping in?
dmw16 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-01-2013, 06:32 PM   #10
ThunderMoose
Captain
 
Drives: 2009 C2S and 2003 E46 M3
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: League City, TX

Posts: 957
iTrader: (0)

I think the primary objective in any DE (or probably any track event) is to bring the car back in the same shape that it arrived in.

Second is to learn the line and to be smooth.

Third is to learn to drive (and brake) comfortably at high speed.

Eventually, you want to combine all of this stuff to drive quicker and quicker lap times.

I think DSC is appropriate all the way through the first 3 objectives, but you need to be aware of what DSC is doing for you and when it is doing it.

I started with DSC on and drove 4-5 HPDE's before I decided to turn it off. I spun twice on the first session with it turned off. I am lucky I wasn't sent home. My mistake was that I didn't pay enough attention to when DSC was intervening. I developed some bad habits obviously. I braked when I wanted even if it was in the middle of the turn. I was also on the gas much too aggressively out of turns. DSC was doing a lot of intervention, but I wasn't connecting my driving with the feedback it was trying to give me.

Long story short, leave it on, but pay close attention to when it intervenes and why. For the most part, you should be able to get around the track pretty quick without it intervening at all. When you do that, chances are you're smooth enough to drive without it.

If you have MDM, that's probably the best way to go as it intervenes a lot less and you'll learn the limits much quicker (in relative safety).

At some point, you'll not like the intervention and will want to take it off. Unfortunately, there is no real good way except for seat time and perhaps drifting practice to learn how to recover quickly enough from a significant oversteer event - you'll want to make sure you're anticipating where it can occur and be ready rather than trying to randomly react. I am not thinking that sliding is faster anyway, but as you get faster you will occasionally cross the line and you need to have the reflexes and skill to react.
ThunderMoose is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-01-2013, 06:32 PM   #11
CanAutM3
Brigadier General
 
CanAutM3's Avatar
 
Drives: 2008 E92 M3 (2015 M4 on order)
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Montreal

Posts: 3,476
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2008 BMW M3  [0.00]
2006 Audi S4  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmw16 View Post
Thanks for the feedback everyone. I think for the e46 the track mode on the zcp car is my equivalent of MDM? Allows some slip before stepping in?
MDM or Track Mode allow a bit more slip which translates to slightly faster lap times. It is the case because these modes do not slow down the car as much when there is some slip.

However, IMO, in terms of masking bad habits, full DSC, MDM or Track Mode are all as bad.
CanAutM3 is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      04-01-2013, 06:36 PM   #12
Sleeper519
Captain
 
Sleeper519's Avatar
 
Drives: 08 E92 M3 DCT
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Atlanta, GA

Posts: 723
iTrader: (0)

The above advice is good. A lot of people will rail against DSC and tell you to just turn it off. Yes, you ultimately will turn it off, and yes will be quicker around the track. But, I think that the first few track days should be with MDM on (never full DSC) while you learn the line and get comfortably smooth at speed while in Novice group. When you step up to intermediate consider turning it off for good.
Sleeper519 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      04-01-2013, 06:37 PM   #13
gan1hck
Private First Class
 
Drives: 2012 M3
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: huntsville, al

Posts: 179
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Porschefile View Post
I never advise students for or against DSC, but I prefer them to run DSC off on their own if they have any kind of decent car control. DSC full-on builds bad habits, habits that take a lot of time to fix later on as the driver progresses. MDM is a little better, but still allows drivers to progress too quickly without ever having to learn skills I consider essential, such as throttle modulation and countersteering. The E9X chassis is REALLY easy to drive fast, and one of the best cars in that performance bracket to learn to really drive (DSC off). YMMV.

To counter my own point, I will say that if you are a completely green student with zero experience, I'd probably suggest MDM on. First track day is overwhelming, and would be ruined if you had a crash.
I was fortunate enough to have been one of his students, and agree with everything that he says.

I have so far been on track with MDM or Euro MDM on at all times......I suspect that the computer nanny has probably saved me once or twice......but I feel that I've learned enough fundamentals that I'm planning on going with DSC off at my next outing.

For reference....a total of 5 de days at the same track.
gan1hck is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-01-2013, 06:46 PM   #14
OC3
Havin' a blast!
 
OC3's Avatar
 
Drives: 2013 M3 E92 Jerez Blk DCT ZCP
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: SoCal

Posts: 4,641
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbraslins View Post
I think MDM/DSC have their place. When new to track, you'll gain much more from learning the line and feeling comfortable. Once you have several sessions under your belt and feel comfy, you can always turn it off and and pay attention to what changes.

I'd say do not turn it off unless you feel it fighting you/impeding your drive out of corners.
+1
__________________

BRP CW13 1:58 | CVR CW 2:01 | CVR CCW 2:02 | ACS 1:53 | WSIR 1:34
2013 E92 M3 Jerez Black DCT ZCP | JRZ RS Pro | Brembo BBK | Endless ME20 | Volk TE37 18x10.5 squared | NT01/TD
OC3 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      04-01-2013, 07:21 PM   #15
dapopa9
Captain
 
dapopa9's Avatar
 
Drives: 2008 E90 M3
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: San Diego

Posts: 609
iTrader: (0)

DSC Off especially if you are just starting out. Otherwise bad habits will be formed. Plus when you are just starting out you are going to be 'slow' in comparison with your speed say 10 events in.
dapopa9 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-01-2013, 08:03 PM   #16
LiM3y
Major
 
LiM3y's Avatar
 
Drives: 2008 E90 M3
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: CT

Posts: 1,212
iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK
Whatever you do, make sure you emphasize with your instructor that you'd like to turn off DSC to go "flat out." They'll really appreciate it.
I also find saying "can you hold this?" and handing them an open can of beer helps too.
__________________
LiM3y is offline   United Kingdom
0
Reply With Quote
      04-01-2013, 08:11 PM   #17
ThunderMoose
Captain
 
Drives: 2009 C2S and 2003 E46 M3
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: League City, TX

Posts: 957
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiM3y View Post
I also find saying "can you hold this?" and handing them an open can of beer helps too.
"Can you keep it quiet for a second, I really need to take this call."
ThunderMoose is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-01-2013, 09:33 PM   #18
Estoril Blue
Second Lieutenant
 
Drives: 2006 M3
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Maryland

Posts: 216
iTrader: (0)

Good posts above - and I agree with ThunderMoose.

Specific to this particular event - I am assuming that you are going out with DelVal? I so - keep in mind that on Day 1 you are running Jefferson. A good first-time on track learning track. Talk to your instructor. Some organizations have policies about whether your instructor can suggest DSC/MDM state.

Day 2 you are on the same track - in the opposite direction. The track will look different - so I recommend that you initially enable DSC *if* you turned it off late in the previous day - because the track and turns will look completely different.

Day 3 you are on Summit Main. A totally different track in almost every way. Plenty of elevation changes, on and off-camber, more speed and other driver challenges. Think of Main circuit as a new learning experience from the previous two days. Treat Turn 9 with respect and do not turn into it early.

I'll see you there. Stop by and say hello.
__________________
Estoril Blue is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-02-2013, 06:44 AM   #19
dmw16
Captain
 
Drives: 2005 ///M3
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Maryland

Posts: 930
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Estoril Blue View Post
Good posts above - and I agree with ThunderMoose.

Specific to this particular event - I am assuming that you are going out with DelVal? I so - keep in mind that on Day 1 you are running Jefferson. A good first-time on track learning track. Talk to your instructor. Some organizations have policies about whether your instructor can suggest DSC/MDM state.

Day 2 you are on the same track - in the opposite direction. The track will look different - so I recommend that you initially enable DSC *if* you turned it off late in the previous day - because the track and turns will look completely different.

Day 3 you are on Summit Main. A totally different track in almost every way. Plenty of elevation changes, on and off-camber, more speed and other driver challenges. Think of Main circuit as a new learning experience from the previous two days. Treat Turn 9 with respect and do not turn into it early.

I'll see you there. Stop by and say hello.
Thanks. Yep, it's the DelVal event. I will swing by and say hi. I'll look for the blue E46 covered in painters tape (judging by your avatar?)

Great info all around, thanks all.

Sounds like the take-aways are:
  1. Go flat out and tell the instructor I am the second coming of Senna, or at least that I saw the movie...TWICE!
  2. Bring a road soda and ask instructor to hold it while I lay down sweet drifts around the turns.
  3. Listen to what the instructor has to say.
  4. Discuss with my instructor what DSC/M-Track mode settings he feels will be appropriate.

I guess mostly those last two
dmw16 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-02-2013, 07:20 AM   #20
Gearhead999s
Major General
 
Gearhead999s's Avatar
 
Drives: E93 335is(wifes)E92 M3
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Toronto

Posts: 6,685
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
I always leave it up to the student to choose the DSC mode they prefer.

My recommendation is that for the first time you go out on the track, keep MDM (or DSC if you don't have the MDM option) activated. Once you are comfortable with the track layout and the proper driving line and if you feel up to it, turn the nannies off. The sooner you drive without the aids, the better habits and reflexes you will develop.

I've had to work very hard with some students that had become decently quick with driving aids, but had developed terribly bad habits that the electronics were hiding. The worst habit is pinching the steering wheel while applying throttle coming out of a turn. With DSC, you wouldn't feel anything. But with DSC off, this could lead to a big moment on corner exit.

Have fun and report back
+1.Pretty much the way that I do it with my students.
Gearhead999s is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-02-2013, 08:35 AM   #21
Porschefile
Major
 
Porschefile's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Tennessee

Posts: 1,222
iTrader: (6)

Quote:
Originally Posted by gan1hck View Post
I was fortunate enough to have been one of his students, and agree with everything that he says.

I have so far been on track with MDM or Euro MDM on at all times......I suspect that the computer nanny has probably saved me once or twice......but I feel that I've learned enough fundamentals that I'm planning on going with DSC off at my next outing.

For reference....a total of 5 de days at the same track.
Thanks for the kind words. You have a good enough feel for the car to run DSC off IMO, I would just never actually "advise" someone to take more risks with their car than DSC/MDM on. Just be prepared to have to feather the throttle and/or countersteer, you'll be fine!

I guess my earlier post also overlooked the fact that many students have goals other than becoming a racer. I have had students tell me that they just want to run 8/10 forever and have a good time, without ever worrying about lap times at all. In that case MDM/DSC can be a nice protection, since the driver won't ever need the skills he/she is failing to develop due to the driver aids.

I'm not immune to driver aid disadvantages either! I have driven lots of fast cars on tracks for years, but every one had ABS. Now that I have a car with no aids, I'm having to learn braking all over again. Many modern cars have such effective ABS systems that they can interfere (slightly) fairly frequently.
Porschefile is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-02-2013, 09:08 AM   #22
Car54
Captain
 
Drives: 1999 Z3 Mcoupe | 2008 M3/4
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Lutz, FL

Posts: 837
iTrader: (1)

BMW CCA teaches instructors to be indifferent regards to DSC. I agree with the above approaches but I really don't feel comfortable recommending.

If I sense the nannies are getting in the way or creating dangerous habits I usually demand we go for a ride in my car and I demo the three settings for them and tell them what I'm doing with the pedals and ask them to feel for it. It's usually pretty eye opening to have the car work to keep me on the track and in check.

It's hard to teach a new student these dynamics because they are rarely flirting with the limits...they either are always way under or once in a while go way over. When they go way over their focus shifts to "fight or flight" and they can't feel what the car is doing for them (other than relief it's over ).

I did that event back in 2008 and really learned a ton of car control both on Jefferson and the skidpad at Jefferson. This made the Monday on Summit Main so much fun. I only had about 8-9 days under my belt at this point. I look back on this three day event as one of the best in memory.

If you can request an instructor...ask the registrar ahead of time if David Ortiz is instructing and request him.
__________________

Craig Brickner
BM
W CCA/PBOC/Chin Motorsports DE Instructor
Click to Join: BMWCCA # 366493
Car54 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:29 PM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST