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      03-27-2013, 07:06 AM   #1
RMB
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CLA45 & S3

It appears that entry level luxury performance cars are becoming fairly powerful. Everybody has 300 hp or more with a healthy dose of torque. What does everyone think about this concerning hp/tq numbers for the new M3/M4 and potential price point?
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      03-27-2013, 07:09 AM   #2
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I say Needs to be 450 Minimum. That CLA45 will make 400hp easily with some work. An M3 should be able to make 500 with a tune/minor mods.
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      03-27-2013, 07:12 AM   #3
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Not to mention the C63 now has 507 horsepower with a TT V8 being put in the next gen car. We already know what kind of power that TT V8 can make assuming they will do as they usually do and put the E63 motor in the C. E63 S is making 577HP
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      03-27-2013, 07:23 AM   #4
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That S3 looks like a great buy
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      03-27-2013, 08:09 AM   #5
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I agree with you guys in that I would like to see 450 hp and 395 for tq, with the weight reduction that everyone is looking forward to. I think this would make for a very competitive package, especially if all of the components of the car are integrated well.
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      03-27-2013, 08:21 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSanto View Post
I say Needs to be 450 Minimum. That CLA45 will make 400hp easily with some work. An M3 should be able to make 500 with a tune/minor mods.
If the n54/n55 is any indicator of tunability of the s55, I would think the
M3/M4 could make nearly 500 with mechanical bolt ons(DP's, exhaust, intake, IC). FBO and tune.. High 500's low 600's
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      03-27-2013, 09:58 AM   #7
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Yah the big advantage the future M3 has over the current one is that Turbocharged motors = a lot easier to make some extra juice
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      03-27-2013, 03:50 PM   #8
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They are both four banger, overpriced front wheel drive platform
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      03-27-2013, 05:20 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M3THOD View Post
If the n54/n55 is any indicator of tunability of the s55, I would think the
M3/M4 could make nearly 500 with mechanical bolt ons(DP's, exhaust, intake, IC). FBO and tune.. High 500's low 600's
?? From a 3.0 litre motor ?? I ran 19psi on the stock turbos with meth, dps and intake on my n54 335i and could only manage 412/446 wheel HP/TQ. The s55 M3 is going run ~ 12-14psi to make 415 crank HP from slightly larger turbos than what is on the n54 (not too much larger to prevent lag, along with the third electric turbo) and so bolt ons will not get it anywhere near "High 500's low 600's". You'd need three larger turbos to do that lol
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      03-27-2013, 09:30 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Longboarder View Post
?? From a 3.0 litre motor ?? I ran 19psi on the stock turbos with meth, dps and intake on my n54 335i and could only manage 412/446 wheel HP/TQ. The s55 M3 is going run ~ 12-14psi to make 415 crank HP from slightly larger turbos than what is on the n54 (not too much larger to prevent lag, along with the third electric turbo) and so bolt ons will not get it anywhere near "High 500's low 600's". You'd need three larger turbos to do that lol




A 3.0L motor is more than capable of holding making 600hp as low boost. My 3.0 litre 2JZGTE ran 800 hp @ 16psi. Granted apples to oranges, but displacement in a non issue.

Regarding your 335, I ran similar numbers at 16psi (V5, AA DP's, Helix FMIC, AE Exhaust, AFE intake) on my n54??

Look at the numbers the Helix & RB turbo numbers thats with marginally more flow.. its entirely feasible.

Your looking at it like everything else is comparable when its not.

Optimize intake, cooling, exhaust and add larger capacity turbo's... your there.

The compressor side can be larger as long as the hotside ar stays reasonable. Your not dropping in a turbo from a dyno queen here, no T70 here with some enormous ar.
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      03-28-2013, 12:46 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M3THOD View Post
A 3.0L motor is more than capable of holding making 600hp as low boost. My 3.0 litre ran 800 hp @ 16psi. Granted apples to oranges, but displacement in a non issue.

Regarding your 335, I ran similar numbers at 16psi (V5, AA DP's, Helix FMIC, AE Exhaust, AFE intake) on my n54??

Look at the numbers the Helix & RB turbo numbers thats with marginally more flow.. its entirely feasible.

Your looking at it like everything else is comparable when its not.

Optimize intake, cooling, exhaust and add larger capacity turbo's... your there.

The compressor side can be larger as long as the hotside ar stays reasonable. Your not dropping in a turbo from a dyno queen here, no T70 here with some enormous ar.
I agree it will flow better than the n54/n55 BMW variant but no way is it going to see anywhere near 600 FBO. Haven't you seen what's happening to the new M5's? A lot of boost from the factory and already optimized and therefore tuning is not yielding significant gains.

Btw my n54 only peaked at 19psi and tapered to 16...like yours.
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      03-28-2013, 01:36 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Longboarder View Post
I agree it will flow better than the n54/n55 BMW variant but no way is it going to see anywhere near 600 FBO. Haven't you seen what's happening to the new M5's? A lot of boost from the factory and already optimized and therefore tuning is not yielding significant gains.

Btw my n54 only peaked at 19psi and tapered to 16...like yours.
I hear what your saying but if a RB turbo car can put down 500rwhp, there's no reason the new s55 in a aggressive tune w/ meth injection isn't going to be in the high 5's. I mean you talking about how much more flow capacity??

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...light=RB+turbo




Either way, our conversation is heresay until we see the cpacity of the turbos
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      03-28-2013, 01:46 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M3THOD View Post
Either way, our conversation is heresay until we see the cpacity of the turbos
Exactly. I personally don't think the BMW engineers are going to provide that much room for improvement with the stock sytem...like what they did with the F10 M5...but we won't know until people start messing with it. e85 conversion will likely provide the most gains, but who knows how long that will take before the first conversions are successful.
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      03-28-2013, 02:05 PM   #14
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So how about the CLA vs S3?

S3 has better styling...

And normally wouldn't you compare an RS model with the AMG or M brands? Is there going to be an RS3?
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      03-30-2013, 01:17 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brava09
They are both four banger, overpriced front wheel drive platform
This. I think people have forgotten that these are nose heavy front wheel drive platforms. I'm sure they will drive fast in a straight line but as soon as the curves hit you will be pushing into corners hard.
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      03-30-2013, 05:38 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brava09 View Post
They are both four banger, overpriced front wheel drive platform
Not really. Audi has 60/40 rear bias torque distribution, MB was always rear drive and has 70/30 rear bias torque distribution. Now that MB has alo gone to AWD with their high torque AMG line, I wonder what BMW will do. With these big torque numbers, AWD is a necessity to get the power properly to the ground in a front engine car. Interestingly, a whole new gen of light, agile RWD cars with moderate, useable power is emerging from Japan of all places, the traditional home of FWD.
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Last edited by LarThaL; 03-31-2013 at 05:16 AM.
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      03-30-2013, 11:52 PM   #17
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No. This CLA 45 AMG is FWD most of the time, and sends power to the rears only when fronts lose traction.

It's a new beginning for Merc with FWD platform in A class.
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      03-31-2013, 01:02 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brava09 View Post
No. This CLA 45 AMG is FWD most of the time, and sends power to the rears only when fronts lose traction.

It's a new beginning for Merc with FWD platform in A class.
OK. I didn't know this. I guess I was making an assumption based on the 4matic e63
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      03-31-2013, 06:58 PM   #19
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When I first read about the CLA45 acting as FWD most of the time, that was disappointing. Torque is only sent to the rear wheels when slip at the front is detected.

This little blurb sounds hopeful though: "Power distribution is fully variable: in normal driving, the CLA 45 AMG uses front-wheel drive in the interests of optimum efficiency. When the driving dynamics so require, the variable AMG 4MATIC all-wheel drive splits the torque between front and rear axle up to a ratio of 50:50 percent. The variables influencing the power distribution ratio are vehicle speed, lateral and longitudinal acceleration, steering angle, speed difference between the individual wheels, selected gear and accelerator position." http://socialpublish.mercedes-benz.c...ormance-24818/

Curious how the reviews will read.
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      04-04-2013, 06:57 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brava09 View Post
No. This CLA 45 AMG is FWD most of the time, and sends power to the rears only when fronts lose traction.

It's a new beginning for Merc with FWD platform in A class.
That's a shame.
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      04-04-2013, 08:56 AM   #21
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FWIW, Audi S3 is also primarily FWD via Haldex and not true Quattro. Any horizontally oriented Audi/VW engine has crap AWD. The longitudinal engines get real Quattro, such as the S4. But back to BMW, I'm skeptical on what a tune/mods will due to the F80 M3. The S55 is already going to be pretty spiced up and having to manage a lot of heat issues. They better have a serious IC setup and optimize air flow. We've all seen that engine bay and it is CRAMPED in there. All in all though, we really have to wait for specs and dynos.

I'm still trying to figure out why ///M didn't start with a 3.2 or 3.3L I6. Too much work for them I guess.
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