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      03-25-2013, 03:16 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
LOL you MT guys are funny...these threads always fill up with insecure MT owners making ever more extravagant reasons why they made the best choice.


Not sure if you noticed the title of this thread before you posted in it, but OP asked for opinions from those who switched from DCT to 6MT. Ergo, one would expect every post in this thread to be from 6MT owners justifying their purchases, and properly so. It's what the OP asked for.

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      03-25-2013, 04:28 PM   #68
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It actually is what I asked for lol.
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      03-25-2013, 05:20 PM   #69
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I did the inverse...

I don't normally post on the 6MT/DCT threads, but I have a someone unique point of view of having lived with both transmissions, on the street and on the track. I went from a 11 E90 6MT to a 12 E92 DCT. I never thought I'd own 2 of the same car, but it just happened. I built both the way I wanted, and when it came time for the second one I decided to try DCT after being frustrated with the clunky 6MT implementation in the E90: wonky clutch position, rubbery shifter that's way too tall, lots of noise.

Although the 6MT purists out there (myself formerly included) will always have their gripes the BMW DCT is a gearbox that delivers faster shifts, better fuel economy, and an amazingly competent auto mode for when you end up sitting in traffic. The zero power loss upshifts and rev-matched downshifts are just icing on the cake, they make me forget rowing the gears and let me keep both hands on the wheel at the track.

For the way the S65 delivers power (slow and even until 5K then OMGHANGONIJUSTHITTHEREVLIMITERAGAIN) my opinion is that the DCT is the right choice for pretty much every circumstance especially track events/HPDE. At the track not having to reach down to shift constantly attempting to stay in the large but quick to rev and high RPM S65 sweet spot has allowed me to focus on driving, not shifting.
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      03-25-2013, 05:57 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
The DCT is built to handle 50% more torque than the M3s engine produces which is why failures are so rare.
Is there info published that DCT clutches can handle 441 ft/lbs?
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      03-25-2013, 05:58 PM   #71
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Why would you ever go back, DCT is the only way to fly and all my past M3's have been manuals.
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      03-25-2013, 06:01 PM   #72
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DCT is an amazing transmission and seems to be reliable up to this point. Saying that I own a DCT F10 M5 and i'm awaiting delivery on my '13 E92 M3 6MT. Why did I go with a manual? I wanted to switch it up a bit, and i've been to the track with my previous MT M cars and thoroughly enjoyed the experience of driving a manual. You can't go wrong with either transmissions!
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      03-25-2013, 07:33 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by llis View Post
Okay, I have a little rant here. Please feel free to skip ahead to the next post.



With respect, I do feel you're overstating your case. (And I'm not sure what Mustangs have to do with the topic.) I don't see how buying a $60k+ (new) car should mean that the prospect of having a non-serviceable critical component like a DCT, which if it breaks could mean a ~$15k repair bill for wholesale replacement, shouldn't make you blink. If money is no object, then maybe you're not planning on keeping your M3 for long and don't sweat the drive-off-the-lot depreciation of always buying the new car that's under warranty, or perhaps you're buying cars with another zero added to the price tag. As sweet as the M3 is, it's in the middle-class price range, and it's even one of the more affordable cars among BMWs. People here spend money on their cars, perhaps more than most, but I don't think that means people here don't value that investment.

And a car like the E9x M3 is, for many, an automotive investment. Yes, anything BMW may strike some as being too ostentatious and indulgent to be a reasonable car purchase. The thing about BMWs that they, and even short-term BMW owners, may not appreciate is that the engineering is pretty amazing and that BMWs tend to last. Over the decades, well-cared-for BMWs have proven to be a good investment in terms of having a quality, stylish, performant ride for years and years and miles and miles, for less than the cost of flipping for a new car every three years. (It's also an investment in the joy of driving such a great machine.) The BMWs that don't last are usually ones with particular pernicious engineering problems with a particular crucial component.

I agree that the S65 is a complicated engine and may prove to be expensive to maintain. But so far the engine is proving to be a winner, one of the best to come from BMW. The 6MT is a variation on something BMW has been doing for decades. On the other hand, while yes, so far the DCT is looking to be solid, it's still new technology without a lot of high-mileage data points, and with "lifetime" fluids and not much in serviceable parts, it's a black box.

I prefer having the track record there. I also happen to like manual shifting, especially on a performance car.

So yes, I consider it quite reasonable for people to weigh the various factors that can play into the long-term value of a car, even the current M3.

My current M3 is not my first M3, nor is it my first BMW. My 1998 M3 racecar has 150k+ hard-driven miles. I have a 13yo 5 series still running like a new car. I had an E21 with close to 20 years and 200k miles on it, running fine and looking great, before it was totalled. And I had a '11 M3 with DCT, and had no complaints, aside from some of the nanny features, and it was head-and-shoulders better than the automatic on the 335xi I leased a few years ago and also loved. All of them are great cars, and I wouldn't consider any of them only for their short-term value. And I wouldn't deign to say that anyone who values money invested in a well-made car is somehow in the wrong class and shouldn't buy an M3. It's a BMW, after all!

This the unbiased opinion of a BMW fangirl, offered with a smile. Rant over.
Well. Fist off if you think a NEW M3 is a middle class car, you have to come back to reality.

It cost over 60k, bad on gas, rear wheel drive , high insurance etc.... and of course expensive maintenance out of warrnety. which most cars on the road today are without a warranty. plus have you looked at the average income in the US. Ya look into that....

My point is this. My car was priced over 70 grand. We can agree that this is a lot of money, IMO people who spend a lot of money on cars like this should be getting what they want. Thinking about something going wrong 5 years into ownership is not the way i see someone with money doing. but i think i need to come back to reality also and realize that most people do not live within there means. So maybe i am out of line saying what i just said.

I personally do not plan to own this car for over 4-5 years, or at least in a daily driver purpose. If i was planning on long term ownership i would buy a GT500 or Z06 corvette. cars that have much cheaper repair bills.

On a side note please do not think i do not love a 6 speed. In fact i was going for a manual when i went car shopping. I was having a hard time finding one in a manual, so i test drove a DCT and loved it. I would never buy a non double clutch transmission in a performance car. rather a manual costed extra or DCT costed extra it simply wouldn't have matter. Because its what i wanted.
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      03-25-2013, 07:45 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by loopsandsounds View Post
I don't normally post on the 6MT/DCT threads, but I have a someone unique point of view of having lived with both transmissions, on the street and on the track. I went from a 11 E90 6MT to a 12 E92 DCT. I never thought I'd own 2 of the same car, but it just happened. I built both the way I wanted, and when it came time for the second one I decided to try DCT after being frustrated with the clunky 6MT implementation in the E90: wonky clutch position, rubbery shifter that's way too tall, lots of noise.

Although the 6MT purists out there (myself formerly included) will always have their gripes the BMW DCT is a gearbox that delivers faster shifts, better fuel economy, and an amazingly competent auto mode for when you end up sitting in traffic. The zero power loss upshifts and rev-matched downshifts are just icing on the cake, they make me forget rowing the gears and let me keep both hands on the wheel at the track.

For the way the S65 delivers power (slow and even until 5K then OMGHANGONIJUSTHITTHEREVLIMITERAGAIN) my opinion is that the DCT is the right choice for pretty much every circumstance especially track events/HPDE. At the track not having to reach down to shift constantly attempting to stay in the large but quick to rev and high RPM S65 sweet spot has allowed me to focus on driving, not shifting.
This are the right words.....100 % agreed !!!
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      03-25-2013, 08:04 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by PrometheusM3 View Post


Not sure if you noticed the title of this thread before you posted in it, but OP asked for opinions from those who switched from DCT to 6MT. Ergo, one would expect every post in this thread to be from 6MT owners justifying their purchases, and properly so. It's what the OP asked for.

Right, let me clear this up for you Senor Funky Pants. OP was only looking for viewpoints that validate what he was contemplating doing. So if you're a 6MT owner who hasn't made the switch from DCT (like the 6mt posters on this thread), but are willing to talk up the MT, then you're welcome to post. But if you're a DCT owner telling him to keep the DCT, then you're not welcome to post - because that's not validation.

Frankly, it was pretty offensive of you to try to introduce logic into the discussion.
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      03-25-2013, 08:17 PM   #76
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It actually is what I asked for lol.
No CSanto, what you asked for is responses from those who have made the switch from DCT to 6mt.

What you apparently were looking for would have resulted in the following post title:

"Hey guys, I'm thinking about doing something that doesn't make sense; if you have a 6MT, then help me convince myself that I'm doing the right thing.
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      03-26-2013, 01:06 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by SD-E93-11 View Post
No CSanto, what you asked for is responses from those who have made the switch from DCT to 6mt.

What you apparently were looking for would have resulted in the following post title:

"Hey guys, I'm thinking about doing something that doesn't make sense; if you have a 6MT, then help me convince myself that I'm doing the right thing.
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=691942



I guess it "made sense" for that guy. Who are you to substitute your opinion for fact? Maybe you should look up the definition of 'preference' before you embarrass yourself any further.

OP asked for opinions among those who have switched from DCT to 6MT. He didn't ask for opinions of DCT drivers who think there's no reason to drive a 6MT, or those who think it "doesn't make any sense" to drive a manual. You can go spread that horse manure in the Club DCT thread.

There's plenty of people who have switched from DCT to 6MT. In fact, I just shared a thread about it, and there have been other people who have chimed in, in this thread. Personally, I was set on DCT for quite some time before I changed my order (after test-driving DCT about as much as I could without owning it). So excuse me while I and others provide the OP and information with the resources he requested.

Those who switched, like me and the poster in the thread I linked, concede the technical advantages of DCT. None of us are trying to say DCT is inferior, or slower, or anything of the sort. We know DCT is faster. We choose 6MT for a different reason. That reason is called the fun/engagement factor. And if you are incapable of understanding that, well, then you have nothing to contribute to this thread. Whether it makes sense or not to you, is irrelevant.
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      03-26-2013, 03:11 AM   #78
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A few more perspectives:

1. Technological innovation is inevitable. There was a time when manual gearboxes offered far superior pure performance than automatics. I remember back in 1981 when my dad had a Saab turbo. The manual was 1.8 sec faster to 60 than the automatic. Todays DCTs are superior performers. In fact, as a lifelong car enthusiast, I always knew that, at some point, transmission technology would develop to the point where a machine and computer would be able to shift faster and produce better numbers than a human being. For those that are hell bent on pure performance, DCT is the obvious choice. This is why you will never see a Nissan GTR with a manual. That is a car developed as a pure performance tool, not one to satisfy other facets of the driving experience as well. And this brings me to point number 2.....

2. Pure performance vs. driving enjoyment. These are NOT the same, although often times we tend to talk and act like they are. Obviously for the enthusiast, performance (by the numbers) is a key element of enjoyment, but to what degree? Is a Shelby GT500 more enjoyable than a Cayman S? On the overall balance sheet, probably not.

Absolute speed capability is only one element of performance (albeit an important one), and objective performance is only one element of driving enjoyment. Driving enjoyment is a sensory experience. In the end, it all comes down to sensory input into our brain that gives us that enjoyment. The more varied the sensory experience, the more enjoyable it will be. That is why looks matter. That is why interior design matters. That is why the feel of certain materials matter. That is why sounds matter. That is suspension and steering calibrations matter. And that is why transmission choice can matter also. It is the same reason some people are die-hard convertible fans, despite the compromises to pure performance that can come with some of those cars.

3. Practicality. As much as I love a manual, my DD is an automatic. Since there is no performance advantage to a manual anymore, it becomes simply a matter of comfort/convenience vs. maximum sensory enjoyment. If my M3 was my only vehicle, it would be a DCT. Yes, my manual is more of a rewarding sensory experience, but the DCT has certainly closed the gap. It is close enough, that I would sacrifice a bit of that sensory experience to have the convenience and comfort of an automatic for daily transport needs.

In the end, you buy a manual for the subjective sensory experience. For the objective/practical aspects of driving, DCT is the choice.
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      03-26-2013, 03:34 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarThaL View Post
A few more perspectives:

1. Technological innovation is inevitable. There was a time when manual gearboxes offered far superior pure performance than automatics. I remember back in 1981 when my dad had a Saab turbo. The manual was 1.8 sec faster to 60 than the automatic. Todays DCTs are superior performers. In fact, as a lifelong car enthusiast, I always knew that, at some point, transmission technology would develop to the point where a machine and computer would be able to shift faster and produce better numbers than a human being. For those that are hell bent on pure performance, DCT is the obvious choice. This is why you will never see a Nissan GTR with a manual. That is a car developed as a pure performance tool, not one to satisfy other facets of the driving experience as well. And this brings me to point number 2.....

2. Pure performance vs. driving enjoyment. These are NOT the same, although often times we tend to talk and act like they are. Obviously for the enthusiast, performance (by the numbers) is a key element of enjoyment, but to what degree? Overall, is Shelby GT500 more enjoyable than a Cayman S? On the overall balance sheet, probably not.

Absolute speed capability is only one element of performance (albeit an important one), and objective performance is only one element of driving enjoyment. Driving enjoyment is a sensory experience. In the end, it all comes down to sensory input into our brain that gives us that enjoyment. The more varied the sensory experience, the more enjoyable it will be. That is why looks matter. That is why interior design matters. That is why the feel of certain materials matter. That is why sounds matter. That is suspension and steering calibrations matter. And that is why transmission choice can matter also. It is the same reason some people are die-hard convertible fans, despite the compromises to pure performance that can come with some of those cars.

3. Practicality. As much as I love a manual, my DD is an automatic. Since there is no performance advantage to a manual anymore, it becomes simply a matter of comfort/convenience vs. maximum sensory enjoyment. If my M3 was my only vehicle, it would be a DCT. Yes, my manual is more of a rewarding sensory experience, but the DCT has certainly closed the gap. It is close enough, that I would sacrifice a bit of that sensory experience to have the convenience and comfort of an automatic for daily transport needs.

In the end, you buy a manual for the subjective sensory experience. For the objective/practical aspects of driving, DCT is the choice.
A very nice summary although I subjectively disagree that an automatic is superior (not exactly your word I understand) for a daily driver. At least for me, even in California traffic, it's not a chore to operate a manual. It really comes down to your preference and how much you enjoy shifting yourself.

I'm just puzzled by how defensive some people are with their decisions (either pro-DCT or manual).
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      03-26-2013, 05:02 AM   #80
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Not sure if you noticed the title of this thread before you posted in it, but OP asked for opinions from those who switched from DCT to 6MT. Ergo, one would expect every post in this thread to be from 6MT owners justifying their purchases, and properly so. It's what the OP asked for.
Indeed...however this particular dead horse has been flogged every which way hundreds of times and the only SINGLE truism that comes out is that you should buy the transmission that YOU PREFER.
And what sort of lame brained individual asks on a forum for help on deciding which transmission to go for? You might as well ask whether to buy apples or oranges and decide on the outcome rather than your own taste.
Except people would start to suggest that the enthusiast prefers oranges, that oranges are more involving because they have to be to peeled, oranges are less likely to go bad and soon there will be no more oranges.
Save the oranges.
Oranges FTW
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      03-26-2013, 05:27 AM   #81
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Indeed...however this particular dead horse has been flogged every which way hundreds of times and the only SINGLE truism that comes out is that you should buy the transmission that YOU PREFER.
And what sort of lame brained individual asks on a forum for help on deciding which transmission to go for? You might as well ask whether to buy apples or oranges and decide on the outcome rather than your own taste.
Except people would start to suggest that the enthusiast prefers oranges, that oranges are more involving because they have to be to peeled, oranges are less likely to go bad and soon there will be no more oranges.
Save the oranges.
Oranges FTW
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Nice analogy.. i do like oranges...
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      03-26-2013, 06:40 AM   #82
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DCT all the way. On the track, in traffic, it's A LOT of fun. Not that I'm saying 6MT sucks but DCT seems to be the perfect fit for the M3.
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      03-26-2013, 06:49 AM   #83
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Dont know why this is such a tough choice for so many. Its really as basic as do you want a manual or an automatic?
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      03-26-2013, 07:09 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by SD-E93-11 View Post
No CSanto, what you asked for is responses from those who have made the switch from DCT to 6mt.

What you apparently were looking for would have resulted in the following post title:

"Hey guys, I'm thinking about doing something that doesn't make sense; if you have a 6MT, then help me convince myself that I'm doing the right thing.
I genuinely wanted opinions from people who have owned both, but nice try Sigmund.
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      03-26-2013, 07:23 AM   #85
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Late but relevant. DCT. Enough said.
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      03-26-2013, 07:35 AM   #86
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I didn't switch but after reading all the posts on these forums about how good the DCT is I went and test drove a few of them. Fun car to drive but is it OMGWTFBBQ faster than a 6MT? No.

I dont understand this pissing match. They are the same car. Either you want to shift or you don't. It's not really that big of a deal.

I've got an 08 and a 6mt. Bottom of the barrel baby!
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      03-26-2013, 07:43 AM   #87
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Dont know why this is such a tough choice for so many. Its really as basic as do you want a manual or an automatic?
Actually it isn't.

As much as DCT could be considered an automatic, it does not behave nor feel the same as a standard auto. First, most automatics offer worse acceleration performance than their manual counterparts. Further, they have a very "disconnected drivetrain" feeling due to the torque converter, hence the slush box designation. I have driven my friends IS-F, I totally disliked the transmission. Same impression for my other buddy's C63 I've driven (it was the older version before MCT).

If the M3 was offered with a choice of MT or standard slushbox automatic, I would not even give the automatic a consideration. The DCT is a very interesting compromise.

Although I do miss rowing my own gears and doing nice heel-and-toe downshifts, I don't regret my choice of picking the DCT .

The choice between DCT and 6MT all boils down to personal preference. There is no good or bad answer .

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      03-26-2013, 07:59 AM   #88
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Quote:
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Dont know why this is such a tough choice for so many. Its really as basic as do you want a manual or an automatic?
Actually it isn't.

As much as DCT could be considered an automatic, it does not behave nor feel the same as a standard auto. First, most automatics offer worse acceleration performance than their manual counterparts. Further, they have a very "disconnected drivetrain" feeling due to the torque converter, hence the slush box designation. I have driven my friends IS-F, I totally disliked the transmission. Same impression for my other buddy's C63 I've driven.

If the M3 was offered with a choice of MT or standard slushbox automatic, I would not even give the automatic a consideration. The DCT is a very interesting compromise.

Although I do miss rowing my own gears and doing nice heel-and-toe downshifts, I don't regret my choice of picking the DCT .

The choice between DCT and 6MT all boils down to personal preference. There is no good or bad answer .
Ehh.. it's an automatic. That's not a bad thing. SMG, DCT, ZF8...they all execute the same mission (albeit differently).

IMHO, at legal speeds, the involvement of the 6MT enhances the M3 experience (I would miss the satisfaction of a good 4/3 downshift).

That said, a tuned GTI with DSG could probably walk me to 30.

My next M will likely be DCT, but not because I want it to be...for now, I'll keep rowing!

To each his own.
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