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      03-20-2013, 08:11 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by klammer View Post
Nice clips OP and some excellent feedback from Randall (ie. don't pinch the turn) Maybe this year I road trip it to Cali? There seems to be a few tracks out there
Oh, you must. But, due to California's size, you should decide whether to do NorCal tracks (Thunderhill, Sonoma & Laguna Seca up there) or SoCal tracks (Buttonwillow, Big Willow, Auto Club Speedway & Chuckwalla).

Can't speak about NorCal tracks as I've done them only once each. But, among SoCal tracks, you must do Buttonwillow and Chuckwalla - very technical/momentum tracks.


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Try to get you eyes on track out when you approach apex, get your eyes to the next turn in point when you're past apex. If you're not tracking out, it's usually because you haven't looked at it until you apexed...and it's too late.

Try it!

Good on you guys for bringing what you're working on to a public forum to help others!
Yeah, keep needing to remind myself to do that. Hasn't become second nature yet.

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      03-20-2013, 08:22 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by klammer View Post
Nice clips OP and some excellent feedback from Randall (ie. don't pinch the turn) Maybe this year I road trip it to Cali? There seems to be a few tracks out there
Make sure you come to Northern California!!! Laguna Seca and Infineon Raceway (now called Sonoma Raceway) are up here!!!! Plus I want to see your infamous car on track!
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      03-20-2013, 08:37 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Ti-Jean View Post
Missed that event but wished I could have made it... I really like Buttonwillow.

One observation I can offer is that you seem to get on the gas at corner exit without unwinding the steering wheel in several of the corners on the video. I understand that this is a compilation of the fails so not sure how the good one looks but wanted to point that out. If you pay attention to unwinding as you press on the gas pedal, your chance of coming out of the corner without oversteer will increase drastically .
Good point! I think now I can see the deficiencies I have developed while tracking with MDM and it is one of them.

MDM corrects it for you and you sit there sipping coffee or lighting up a cigarette, proceeding to the next corner. But with nannies off, you realize all of the sudden that you have to drive the car Just kidding of course, but it is indeed a rewarding experience relying on your own senses rather than smart ass traction control
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      03-20-2013, 08:37 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by MRSSIIM3 View Post
what exhaust is that? sounds good! and cool vid
Thanks! This is Akra Evo.
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      03-20-2013, 08:48 PM   #27
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Well, as you've noticed then, I too have had to do some massive corrections at Off-Ramp (like the last Buttonwillow on 03/10). But, in each of those occasions, the video clearly shows that there were still plenty of room on the outside part of the track. Same in your video when you spun there. And, the steering wheel was turned towards the right (i.e. where the track goes to). When we get on the gas heavily with the steering wheel turned like that, of course we're going to oversteer. The alternative is to go lighter on the gas, but when there's track space available, we obviously want to be on the gas more by using all of the track.

My goal next time I'm at Buttonwillow is to straighten out the steering wheel and head out to the outside part of the track when I get on the gas at that section - i.e. track out (use all of the track). But, at Sunrise, which is another corner where I've had to correct a lot, we're on the gas before the apex, so I need to just 'touch' the apex (at a tangent point) and immediately head out to the outside part of the track. What I've done frequently there is, after the apex, the steering wheel was still turned to the left (almost like I was following the inside contour of the track) and, thereby, having to correct heavily as the throttle increases.

In my ACS video from 02/24, there are lots of laps where I've had to do similar massive corrections at T4, T6 & T9 and, in each instances, I had not tracked all the way out to the outer edge of the track when exiting those corners. But, in other laps, I do track all the way out at those same corners, make a nice wide arc to the rumble strips and was able to put down power without the backend coming out.

It's funny how I've done 1:58 at Buttonwillow, but just am realizing how important tracking out is. Each time I've had to massively correct while exiting a corner, cars in front of me start pulling away - a clear indication how much time you're losing if the car's slip angle increases while exiting. Moderate amount of oversteer is ok (if you're not, then perhaps you're not driving hard enough), but sliding too much (while fun) clearly causes slow lap times.




That last big spin at Bus Stop, looks like you turned in just a tad too early, while clearly going pretty fast. Turning in too early + high entry speed = spin/oversteer. Ask me how I know, lulz.




+1 That penalizes you the most at Off-Ramp.
Good write up! I've been puzzled by that off-Ramp turn for a long time and I watched other people going through it just standing by the fence. I saw lots of fast guys really hugging it tight, almost like what you'd have to do in an underpowered public go-cart to get the fastest lap time. I was assuming that this is the fastest line, although in most of the others not so slow corners I track out a lot more and use all the width available..

I'll try going wider next time.

And another turn that sort of frustrates me since I always feel like I am not doing right is the sweeper.. Weird corner, not sure if it is a double apex or just a one long sweep. And entry into it is not clear to me, should I go wide or not so wide..
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      03-20-2013, 08:56 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by apecush View Post
do you guys get booted off the track for hitting the dirt?

at local events here, 2 wheels off and you're session is done. 4 wheels off and you're packing up and going home.
This track in particular is OK with you going off, unless you're really on the roll throwing dirt on the track surface everywhere, some organizers will shut you down for the session. After the big spin, I got black flagged and pulled into the pits, they look at the car and I went on for another few laps before the session was over.
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      03-20-2013, 08:57 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by rhouck View Post
Looks like you were improving just as I watching through the video! Nice work!
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Originally Posted by tom @ eas View Post
Nice! you were definitely tearing it up out there!


Thanks guys!
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      03-21-2013, 12:05 AM   #30
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do you guys get booted off the track for hitting the dirt?

at local events here, 2 wheels off and you're session is done. 4 wheels off and you're packing up and going home.
That seems pretty harsh.

Here in SoCal, most organizers allow two 4 wheels off incidents and they may ask you to pack up if you go off the 3rd time. But, it depends on the severity of the off's.


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Originally Posted by thorny View Post
Good write up! I've been puzzled by that off-Ramp turn for a long time and I watched other people going through it just standing by the fence. I saw lots of fast guys really hugging it tight, almost like what you'd have to do in an underpowered public go-cart to get the fastest lap time. I was assuming that this is the fastest line, although in most of the others not so slow corners I track out a lot more and use all the width available..

I'll try going wider next time.
From that fence, since you're looking perpendicularly at cars leaving Off-Ramp, it'd be hard to tell if they're hugging it tight or if they're actually on the left side of the track. Many people do hug the apex tight there, but I think you're talking about after they get past the apex.

Due to the curvature of the inside, there's no way to go fast/flat out by hugging it tight. Look what happens when we get on the gas while doing that. Every time I follow fast cars there, they're at the far left side edge of the track by the time Off-Ramp section ends and the straight I-5 section starts.


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Originally Posted by thorny View Post
And another turn that sort of frustrates me since I always feel like I am not doing right is the sweeper.. Weird corner, not sure if it is a double apex or just a one long sweep. And entry into it is not clear to me, should I go wide or not so wide..
Yeah, some people enter there wide and others enter tight to the right. But, I think most people treat it as a single apex.

I've been going in tight to the right by braking late and, as I'm passing the apex, I'm still braking. And, as I go thru the Sweeper, I let the car drift further and further out to the left, and then rotate the car to enter the Esses so that I can enter it in as straight a line as possible (so that I can get on the gas early while entering the Esses).
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Last edited by OC3; 03-21-2013 at 12:44 PM.
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      03-21-2013, 06:36 AM   #31
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Your videos do show great progression, as others have stated. Though it seems you either have a very heavy foot, or you drive in power sport plus? Perhaps both.
Either way keep up the good work and next time we can see full lap videos, rather than just the fun parts!
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      03-21-2013, 08:41 AM   #32
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I applaud you for turning your traction control off, but with the amount of corrections and short drifts, do the corner safety get your attention? For example, I've been told that when you begin to drift and spin out of control that you will be dropped to a lowers class level of course if there is a pattern. For example from intermediate to novice. I am fairly new at tracking and have not considered turning mines off just yet.
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      03-21-2013, 05:49 PM   #33
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Congrats on you progression to DSC off . I enjoyed watching the clip .

As others have stated, IMO, most of your slips are due to pinching the steering wheel during corner exit. As you mentioned yourself, DSC/MDM was masking this from you. The good thing is that you have very quick hands and good reflexes and are able to catch the car . Be wary though, most crashes I have seen from intermediate students are due to exactly that, pinching the wheel .

Your next step in your progression is avoiding these slips alltogether. You need to anticipate the available grip and adjust your inputs accordingly. Imagine a cord between the steering wheel and the gas pedal, if you cannot unwind, you cannot give more gas (if you actually can, that means you are too slow at apex ). Car54 is also giving a good hint with focusing on vision, the farther ahead you look, the better your inputs.

Looking forward to your next vid .

PS, when you announced the SoCal track crowd, I expected something better than fat chicks (GTRs). But it seems the track crowd is not much different in SoCal than here up north .

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      03-21-2013, 06:01 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thorny View Post
This track in particular is OK with you going off, unless you're really on the roll throwing dirt on the track surface everywhere, some organizers will shut you down for the session. After the big spin, I got black flagged and pulled into the pits, they look at the car and I went on for another few laps before the session was over.
This track is the WORST wrt going off, IMO. I don't know if you've ever had the opportunity to walk out in the so-called dirt in Buttonwillow, but it's not dirt. It's this weird clay like material that becomes a fine dust like aggregate that will catch your wheels if you go off sideways and flip your car. Multiple fatalities have occurred at this track, believe it or not. It is not uncommon for someone to think that they're okay while spinning off here, and then next thing they know they're upside down.

Just a word of caution. This particular track has fooled a lot of very good drivers.

RESPECT Buttonwillow, or it won't respect you IMO.
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      03-22-2013, 12:24 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Bmw135er View Post
Your videos do show great progression, as others have stated. Though it seems you either have a very heavy foot, or you drive in power sport plus? Perhaps both.
Either way keep up the good work and next time we can see full lap videos, rather than just the fun parts!
Yeah, I do have a heavy foot like I think most guys in this part of the forum
I started out with sport plus and I felt like it was too hard to modulate considering my heavy foot

I switched to Sport and it was alright.

I just found my best lap and I can tell it wasn't the cleanest, I'll post it soon. Too busy with work at the moment
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      03-22-2013, 12:28 AM   #36
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I applaud you for turning your traction control off, but with the amount of corrections and short drifts, do the corner safety get your attention? For example, I've been told that when you begin to drift and spin out of control that you will be dropped to a lowers class level of course if there is a pattern. For example from intermediate to novice. I am fairly new at tracking and have not considered turning mines off just yet.
Corner workers were cool, they only black flagged me once for that massive spin. Short drifts is not a big deal. It is racing after all
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      03-22-2013, 12:31 AM   #37
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This track is the WORST wrt going off, IMO. I don't know if you've ever had the opportunity to walk out in the so-called dirt in Buttonwillow, but it's not dirt. It's this weird clay like material that becomes a fine dust like aggregate that will catch your wheels if you go off sideways and flip your car. Multiple fatalities have occurred at this track, believe it or not. It is not uncommon for someone to think that they're okay while spinning off here, and then next thing they know they're upside down.

Just a word of caution. This particular track has fooled a lot of very good drivers.

RESPECT Buttonwillow, or it won't respect you IMO.
I would say it can be really nasty and sticky after rain, but dry although it is very fine and shitty dust I wouldn't be too paranoid.

This is not to say that going off sideways at well over 100 MPH is a good habit to get into
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      03-22-2013, 12:37 AM   #38
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Congrats on you progression to DSC off . I enjoyed watching the clip .

As others have stated, IMO, most of your slips are due to pinching the steering wheel during corner exit. As you mentioned yourself, DSC/MDM was masking this from you. The good thing is that you have very quick hands and good reflexes and are able to catch the car . Be wary though, most crashes I have seen from intermediate students are due to exactly that, pinching the wheel .

Your next step in your progression is avoiding these slips alltogether. You need to anticipate the available grip and adjust your inputs accordingly. Imagine a cord between the steering wheel and the gas pedal, if you cannot unwind, you cannot give more gas (if you actually can, that means you are too slow at apex ). Car54 is also giving a good hint with focusing on vision, the farther ahead you look, the better your inputs.

Looking forward to your next vid .

PS, when you announced the SoCal track crowd, I expected something better than fat chicks (GTRs). But it seems the track crowd is not much different in SoCal than here up north .

Thank you. I am glad I posted this here. I will take your advice and report back.

Love your comment about the fat chicks! LOL

GTRs are very common at track events here. There were at least 3 or 4 of them doing 1:56-1:58. But the fastest was Ricky in E92 with 1:54 which is kind of nice although Ricky owns stupid fast GTR too
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      03-22-2013, 10:06 AM   #39
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I would say it can be really nasty and sticky after rain, but dry although it is very fine and shitty dust I wouldn't be too paranoid.

This is not to say that going off sideways at well over 100 MPH is a good habit to get into
Yes it is worse when wet, but when dry, that clay like dirt is SOFT. I went out to place cones a few times for my org when we run there, and it's like stepping in freshly laid snow. Your foot goes down a good inch by the edge of the track, about 10' in, your foot will sink anywhere between 2-5 inches depending on where it is on track.

And when the wheels dig in sideways, it's got the potential to flip the car even though it doesn't look like it. Like I said, there are quite a few fatalities here at this track, and most people don't realize it, but I wouldn't make a habit out of spinning off track here that's for sure.
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