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      03-14-2013, 12:26 AM   #1
M3takesNYC
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F30 limp mode already!

Not sure how many of you guys have seen the 6 pages of people talking about limp mode already on their F30's. I really was giving bmw credit for absolutely fixing any overheating or limp mode problem on the F30 but this is just absolutely appalling and it really puts into question the future of the turbo m3 as a viable option for people who truly drive the car hard.

Just disapointing, I thought after the millions of dollars bmw lost through the e90 fiasco, they would assure that their turbo motors are flawless but within the first few months its an issue again!!
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      03-14-2013, 12:54 AM   #2
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No surprise, BMW has been plagued by heat management issues with their turbos

I hope they went back to drawing board on the M4.
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      03-14-2013, 02:09 AM   #3
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Considering the S55 is designed after the N55 I don't think they ever went back to any drawing board. That only happened one time and one time only and that was with the s85 and s65 engines. Truly only bespoke engine's ever in a bmw
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      03-14-2013, 08:13 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3takesNYC
Considering the S55 is designed after the N55 I don't think they ever went back to any drawing board. That only happened one time and one time only and that was with the s85 and s65 engines. Truly only bespoke engine's ever in a bmw
I dunno - they went air to water in the S55. With a big enough radiator, it should outperform the air-to-air IC in the N55 (unless your running a very long time). Similarly, I imagine the oil cooler is quite beefed up. Will never be an S65, but I bet they sort the heating issues out in the M.

- Guy who sold his 335i and is waiting for his '13 M3.
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      03-14-2013, 08:52 AM   #5
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The drawing board = better cooling for the oil and turbos. Bigger intercooler, bigger piping, more efficient cooling bits etc etc and research 80s f1 technology
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      03-15-2013, 03:08 PM   #6
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BMW should just scrap the turbos n go with supercharges not as efficient as turbos but way more reliable. Says the guy who also had a 335 (still hasn't changed my username) loved that n54 engine
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      03-15-2013, 03:13 PM   #7
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BMW turbo engines are definitely not up to par with heat management and reliability when doing performance driving. Other manufacturers pull it off flawlessly, BMW needs to go back to the drawing board.
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      03-19-2013, 12:26 PM   #8
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I have always been curious - did they fix the cooling issues in that limited run of 1 series coupes that they M-badged? Or does the track put them in limp mode just like a 335is coupe?
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      03-19-2013, 12:36 PM   #9
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so what's the actual issue here? Overheating is pretty general fairly common in turbo cars and there are many heat management/extraction methods. Is the turbo housing cracking? Is the coolant temperature above normal? Is the charged air way too hot?

I only ask b/c we assume the other manufacturers do turbo's better, but it's also likely those cars have lower tolerances. Examples would be Evos and STis...the engine management is nowhere close to the tolerance level in the BMW engine management software. There's a good chance that the BMW cars are just overly complex and have very restrictive tolerances for heat.

Just a thought, I wouldn't know any specifics, but does make sense to think about this aspect. In the Evo/STi world, owners would just work their cars hard on the track, then in between sessions, pop the hood and attempt to cool down the intercooler and intake piping and other cooling hardware. Additionally, stylistically, these manufacturers allow those cars to be designed with signficant vents to extract the heat. Something tells me BMW refuses to poke more vents in their beautiful F30's front fascia/hood or put a huge front mount intercooler or vents in the hood.

These are just the fronts, but the Evo and STis all have significant vents on the hood or behind the fender for cooling:







Last edited by mdosu; 03-19-2013 at 12:50 PM.
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      03-19-2013, 12:39 PM   #10
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how did these issues not show up on the test track? I just dont understand how issues like this make it to production.
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      03-19-2013, 12:58 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdosu View Post
so what's the actual issue here? Overheating is pretty general fairly common in turbo cars and there are many heat management/extraction methods. Is the turbo housing cracking? Is the coolant temperature above normal? Is the charged air way too hot?

I only ask b/c we assume the other manufacturers do turbo's better, but it's also likely those cars have lower tolerances. Examples would be Evos and STis...the engine management is nowhere close to the tolerance level in the BMW engine management software. There's a good chance that the BMW cars are just overaly complex and have very restrictive tolerances for heat.

Just a thought, I wouldn't know any specifics, but does make sense to think about this aspect. In the Evo/STi world, owners would just work their cars hard on the track, then in between sessions, pop the hood and attempt to cool down the intercooler and intake piping and other cooling hardware. Additionally, stylistically, these manufacturers allow those cars to be designed with signficant vents to extract the heat. Something tells me BMW refuses to poke more vents in their beautiful F30's front fascia/hood or put a huge front mount intercooler and 2 vents for larger oil coolers.
Definitely a lot of venting and coolers on the Evo/STI. My Evos had a big radiator, air intercooler, engine oil cooler, power steering cooler and transmission cooler all lined up in front. Not to mention big heat extractor holes in the hood. Never any overheat issues on track. BMW needs more/bigger vents and larger radiators/oil coolers.

The cooling issue guaranteed comes out in BMW's testing, they just say it is ok and send it out as most buyers will not track their cars. That's why cars like the 335is have larger coolers than the regular 335i.
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      03-19-2013, 01:02 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Z K View Post
Definitely a lot of venting and coolers on the Evo/STI. My Evos had a big radiator, air intercooler, engine oil cooler, power steering cooler and transmission cooler all lined up in front. Not to mention big heat extractor holes in the hood. Never any overheat issues on track. BMW needs more/bigger vents and larger radiators/oil coolers.

The cooling issue guaranteed comes out in BMW's testing, they just say it is ok and send it out as most buyers will not track their cars. That's why cars like the 335is have larger coolers than the regular 335i.
Yes but there's another thread of users having the same problem with normal street driving.

http://www.f30post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=786475
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      03-19-2013, 01:07 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Z K View Post
Definitely a lot of venting and coolers on the Evo/STI. My Evos had a big radiator, air intercooler, engine oil cooler, power steering cooler and transmission cooler all lined up in front. Not to mention big heat extractor holes in the hood. Never any overheat issues on track. BMW needs more/bigger vents and larger radiators/oil coolers.

The cooling issue guaranteed comes out in BMW's testing, they just say it is ok and send it out as most buyers will not track their cars. That's why cars like the 335is have larger coolers than the regular 335i.
it's hard to tell if the F30 has vent issues. The front fascia appears to be pretty generous with air flow to the radiator. Is that a front mount intercooler on the F30?
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      03-19-2013, 01:09 PM   #14
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turbo cars gets very complex when you have to build a high performance car. It's not as easy as just dropping a larger air-air intercooler b/c there's pressure drop with that system. You'll likely need to run shorter pipes and higher boost, which then creates even more heat...and the cycle continues.

BWM could have just a failure of the eqiupment instead of the actualy setup? I would think designing a turbo system is pretty easy, I mean, turbo engines has been around for about 90 years in one form or another.

FWIW, the early Evo 8's also at one point had a water sprayer on the intercooler (debatable performance gain however).
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      03-19-2013, 01:27 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdosu View Post
turbo cars gets very complex when you have to build a high performance car. It's not as easy as just dropping a larger air-air intercooler b/c there's pressure drop with that system. You'll likely need to run shorter pipes and higher boost, which then creates even more heat...and the cycle continues.

BWM could have just a failure of the eqiupment instead of the actualy setup? I would think designing a turbo system is pretty easy, I mean, turbo engines has been around for about 90 years in one form or another.

FWIW, the early Evo 8's also at one point had a water sprayer on the intercooler (debatable performance gain however).
The pressure drop in having a larger intercooler is only in the beginning of throttle input as the boost builds. It increases turbo lag. Once boost is built up, it maintains the same pressure.

Quote:
Yes but there's another thread of users having the same problem with normal street driving.

http://www.f30post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=786475
Most of the people on there are just complaining about the electric fans staying on when shutting off the car. Pretty common situation as the motor still needs to cool while shut off - because it is running too hot.

The limp mode where they can't rev past 2500 rpm is something else - doesn't look to be overheating related. Something with the fan control not being able to let the car heat up.

It just sums up to BMW having inadequate cooling for the turbo motors.
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      03-19-2013, 01:33 PM   #16
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Benz can do it....BMW should be able to do it.
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      03-19-2013, 01:52 PM   #17
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Benz can do it....BMW should be able to do it.
superchargers vs turbochargers, same concepts but different plumbings and equipment and engine software.
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      03-19-2013, 02:32 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdosu View Post
superchargers vs turbochargers, same concepts but different plumbings and equipment and engine software.
All the Benz now are turbocharged.
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      03-19-2013, 08:45 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdosu View Post
superchargers vs turbochargers, same concepts but different plumbings and equipment and engine software.
Not really the same at all other than condensing air into the cylinder. Mechanisms are completely different. One is belt driven that builds boost dependent as RPMS climb and turn the pulley faster making low-end boost much more difficult vs. Turbo cars using the exhaust flow to spin the turbo and condense air which can be making boost extremely low.

So mechanism and delivery of power is drastically different and concepts nowhere near the same
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      03-19-2013, 08:57 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3takesNYC View Post
Not really the same at all other than condensing air into the cylinder. Mechanisms are completely different. One is belt driven that builds boost dependent as RPMS climb and turn the pulley faster making low-end boost much more difficult vs. Turbo cars using the exhaust flow to spin the turbo and condense air which can be making boost extremely low.
Yeah, compressed air... same concept, but different equipment, plumbing, software, as earlier stated
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      03-19-2013, 09:01 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3takesNYC View Post
Not really the same at all other than condensing air into the cylinder. Mechanisms are completely different. One is belt driven that builds boost dependent as RPMS climb and turn the pulley faster making low-end boost much more difficult vs. Turbo cars using the exhaust flow to spin the turbo and condense air which can be making boost extremely low.

So mechanism and delivery of power is drastically different and concepts nowhere near the same
yeah, I'm aware of what the differences between supercharger and turbochargers are, but the concept is exactly the same: compressing air....
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      03-19-2013, 09:14 PM   #22
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Such early heat issues from the newest BMW lineup. One has to wonder what outside of warranty repairs will the owners deal with.
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