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      03-14-2013, 09:32 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chriskm3 View Post
Do you guys this that the brace puts too much stress on the differential ?
It's actually quite the opposite. Unwanted movement results in breakage, people having bolts shear off is case and point. Although they utilize a much weaker arrangement of components, the N54 crowd breaks propeller shafts,half shafts and other related pieces because the execute the same odd 3-point mounting strategy and the adverse affects that creates.The kit I devised for the N54 version of this chassis does exactly the same thing with plenty of success, It's the difference in the M subframe that resulted in the solution being executed in a different manner.
I'm aware that this is a much more discerning crowd.. All the testing to date has yielded very positive results in solving the issues in this situation, and then some. It really hasn't presented any negative drawbacks whatsoever. Several more cars are being fitted locally before they'll be available for shipping/purchase anywhere. When the tracks open, data will be collected and when I'm happy with it, I'll consider replicating in higher volumes,although I've always been distasteful of the idea of things not being completely in my hands. I'm sure that those receiving the next run will post their impressions on the product, and things will progress from there if my own and everyone else's standards are met/exceeded. I refuse to release anything sub-par, which a little time,data and feedback will certainly prove.
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      03-14-2013, 10:42 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1SICKM View Post
Sounds like a great mod for those with wheel hop. I've NEVER experienced wheel hop and I've put my car through its paces. 600whp and a couple hundred launches at the quarter mile. Personally, I wouldn't waste 1k on this....

Last edited by VCP; 04-14-2014 at 04:17 PM.
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      03-14-2013, 10:51 PM   #47
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      03-15-2013, 05:58 PM   #48
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This thread got quiet realllllll quick
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      03-15-2013, 06:42 PM   #49
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I am 'quietly' waiting for pricing and weight difference between the 3 different braces.
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      03-15-2013, 06:52 PM   #50
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Looks very interesting. More feedback and testing im sure will follow.
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      03-15-2013, 10:03 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NikB316 View Post
This thread got quiet realllllll quick
Solid information from the horses mouth can help that. As opposed to touchy-feely reviews with some pretty questionable claims.

To defivfab:

What would be a wonderful test is to actually try to break a differential or other non clutch drive train parts through some abuse on two cars, one with and one without this product. I certainly realize this is an expensive and difficult to conduct test. Nothing beats some data though...
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      03-15-2013, 10:37 PM   #52
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e92zero,
True story! Hopefully Rick will get his vendor stuff sorted soon. I'm not really sure on the other pricing besides what I paid. Pretty reasonable IMO granted how expensive mods are for this car.


Roman,
Would be nice to see this tested by the FI vendors granted the market it's designed for. With you guys having such a large market share the amount of data would be awesome. Lalit@ACM mentioned he'll be testing it soon so I'm sure that'll be a nice start. They do a silly amount of kits. Excellent place but everyone knows that by now.

Swamp,
I hope you get to experience this product and share your personal views as I have.


Quote:
Originally Posted by e92zero View Post
I am 'quietly' waiting for pricing and weight difference between the 3 different braces.
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      03-18-2013, 11:02 PM   #53
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Here's the 1st of 10 apparently in titanium :O
2lb 10oz...
These have to be welded in an oxygen free tank.
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      03-18-2013, 11:33 PM   #54
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This is very cool...

I get wheel hop all the time and would absolutely jump at a solution to solve it.

OP: Can you please send me contact info so I can inquire about getting one of these myself?
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      03-18-2013, 11:53 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Benvo View Post
This is very cool...

I get wheel hop all the time and would absolutely jump at a solution to solve it.

OP: Can you please send me contact info so I can inquire about getting one of these myself?
im keen to
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      03-19-2013, 12:43 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uniter View Post
Here's the 1st of 10 apparently in titanium :O
2lb 10oz...
These have to be welded in an oxygen free tank.
This is cool, any info on pricing? Can pm perhaps?
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      03-19-2013, 01:03 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VCMperformance View Post
The differential and its torque twist witch is cause by the rubber mounts it hangs on is a big cause of wheel hop the differential will twist more then you think. Most times wheel hop happens is launching the car and the tires are grabbing for traction. Each little slip of traction the torque twisted differential will unload and the rubber bushing will spring the differential back to a neutral position. The regain of traction will load the differential twisting it down again starting a pendulum affect that will make the suspension load and unload wheel hop happens. There is many other causes for wheel hop but on IRS rear ends this is the main one. The differential brace he is reviewing will help keep the diff from loading and unloading helping with wheel hop.

I do believe it happens on the m3 in varying degrees many times the driver will not feel it. Other times BAM BAM BAM BAM. HP levels, tires, age and state of rubber bushings all play into wheel hop. Take a stock hp m3 with some big sticky rear tires and do some good launches probably get some mean hop like being on a sticky drag strip starting line. I say stock hp m3 for the reason of not having the compete power of over whelming the tires. The feeling of the car becoming more planted and stable could be from lsd differential being able to work more efficient in a turn due to it not waiting for the bushing to react to on and off throttle inputs. Just my two cents....
Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
A few comments.
  • If the product can/does eliminate wheel hop it could be a great product. I have had wheel hop on multiple occasions and it does feel like the rear end of the car is falling apart.
  • Pics are terrible and the link to the non M system doesn't help as the systems appear very different.
  • I do not at all buy these overly optimistic (imaginary) reports of all sort of benefits and improvements in feel, more solid, less bounce (sure less wheel hop, maybe).
  • There shouldn't really be any more benefits for a DCT over the 6MT.
  • It simply can not improve any flaws/shortcommings you have found with the DCT. This is in your head OP, sorry.
  • Quotes from the designer of the system need some serious improvement. It sounds like bable/techno babble without really getting to any sort of engineering/technical explanation of the product and what it is actually doing. Too bad VCMperformance had to fill in for the vendor with a reasonable good/simple explanation of what this product actually does.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malek View Post
The design philosophy behind this product is pretty simple. They are adding a 4th mounting point to the differential it seems instead of the 2 front and 1 rear bushing mounting design the car already has.

As far as NVH, this kit is replacing the 3 factory bushings and it's adding another mounting point that might be solidly mounted to the sub frame. If that is the case, NVH will definitely increase.

Will this help a DCT more than a manual? No. In fact it should help a manual a lot more. Ever seen how harsh a 6MT power shift is?

Sadly, there is no technical specifications on this product and going by how something "feels" is not the best method of testing the efficacy of this bracing kit. No pictures, no drawings... these things would help.

I am with swamp2 on this.

VCM, Swamp, Malek - can either of you elaborate on how this product differs from a solid rear subframe (such as that discussed in THIS thread)? Is one a more thorough solution? Does one offer benefits that the other doesn't? Does one create negative effects that the other doesn't? Difficulty of install? It's a newb question, I know. But I'm contemplating a solution along these lines and am trying to understand the fundamental difference, to see which solution is (1) more thorough and (2) applies best to me)


Quote:
Originally Posted by defivfab View Post
Ok, I'm here to answer a multitude of questions in regards to what this is, why it works and whatever else you'd like to throw my way. We'll start with the factory differential mounting strategy-for whatever reasons, bmw opted to utilize a 3 point mounting system on this car.Any understanding of torsional loading will quickly unveil the faults of the design, perhaps it isn't as apparent on factory or lightly modified cars,but when a supercharger or added displacement,etc falls into the mix, the weakness of this design becomes apparent-especially with the dsc off. I was approached by a local s/c M3 owner preceding the OP's install do devise an M variant after the success of the N54 version. Balancing between effectiveness and low nvh was not immediate, I ended up having to utilize the solid forward diff mounts (same as an N54 car) which are billet aluminum. Originally,the brace was solid mount to the subframe, but excessive nvh became apparent, so the design was altered. Two brands of polyurethane were used before deciding to have a softer formulation made via Energy suspension, which is now in use. The way it works is rather simple, it essentially mounts to the differential via 4 of the cover screws and then affixes to the subframe via a custom insert nut and sleeve system in the drain holes located just inside of the rear subframe to body mounts. It does it's job by restricting the differential from rotational movement under load. Wheel hop is created by a reactive effect of a multitude of areas. the first being the tires as the fight for grip-all this rotational loading is applied back to the differential-which is receiving steady power in via the propeller shaft. The resulted reaction is a push-pull effect which is where the 3-point system shows it's weakness. The passenger side will then bounce up and down creating a tramping effect, which transfers back to the wheels and the suspension will amplify this motion via the springs. that's how wheel hop works, and why it's prevalent to some with higher output and more aggresive driving styles. It's interesting to note that these effects can be tamed slightly via stiffer suspensions/ coil-overs on some cars, alignment plays a role-but none of those solutions solve the core of the issue, they're simply band-aid approaches. If you drive your car in a way that hop doesn't present itself then obviously this product isn't for you, I'm not here to argue why every M3 needs one, because they don't. Those of you who do experience these issues are whom the product was intended for,plain and simple. Results so far have been very positive, I understand we live in a suspicious and proof thirsty world(I'm probably worse in regards to skepticism than most of you, so I can understand)
As far as shift feel goes, the same benefits apply to DCT or MT6 cars. Restriction of unwanted movement results in tighter upshifts and stability regardless of transmission type. As far as track testing is concerned, It's winter here in PA so that's currently impossible although proper before/after documentation will come in the spring.If there's any specific data anyone would like to see, feel free to ask.
The brace shown in the OP's pic is one of 3 variants, it is the "plate" style. Next in line is the 4130 chromoly tubular version, which is lighter obviously. I'm currently working on a limited run of Titanium braces which will be a numbered production run. These are all currently made to order, I will post pictures of the other versions as they are made, which will be within the next week or so. Any other questions you may have, feel free to ask me via post/PM. I will inquire into vendor fees before discussing sales here.
Thanks Rick@Defiv Fabrication.
Rick,

Maybe you can also comment on my above questions in regards to the difference between this solution and a Solid rear subframe. Would appreciate your input.

In addition to those questions, I noticed you discussed suspension as one of the contributing factors to creating the wheel hop. You mentioned that the suspension "amplifi[es] this motion via the springs." Do you find that that stiffer suspension (such as KW clubsports) minimize this motion/effect? If so, does this product still offer a worthwhile/noticeable improvement in wheel hop for a car that is equipped with a stiffer suspension.

I'm also curious to know (1) the weights of each of these units using each of the differing materials you mentioned (including Titanium) and (2) the prices for each of the differing materials (again including Titainum). If you're not comfortable mentioning price here in the open forums, feel free to PM me with pricing information.

Thanks to all. And sorry for the inexperienced question.


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      03-19-2013, 06:39 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajcxnejx View Post
I've NEVER experienced wheel hop and I've put my car through its paces
follow my instructions and you will.
Yes, follow those instructions. Take a 70k 414 HP sports car, turn off the traction control, then drag race it from a standstill and complain about failures of the car.

What was BMW thinking? Making a car that couldn't launch on a wet road with the nannies off?

I can see why many of us have zero issues with hop or DCT issues. BMW must go crazy with warranty claims they KNOW in their gut is from abuse.

Guys, nothing wrong with picking at a car's flaws, but asking it to do what it wasn't and shouldn't be designed to do seems a bit odd.

Not saying you don't get wheel hop in other circumstances, and not saying this isn't a great product. I'm saying this is a bad example of what one has to do to get wheel hop.

Cheers,
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      03-19-2013, 07:32 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uniter View Post
Here's the 1st of 10 apparently in titanium :O
2lb 10oz...
These have to be welded in an oxygen free tank.
oxygen free tank?? do you know how to TIG weld? not much different than welding stainless besides the rod you use. same argon.
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      03-19-2013, 08:53 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e46e92love View Post
Yes, follow those instructions. Take a 70k 414 HP sports car, turn off the traction control, then drag race it from a standstill and complain about failures of the car.

What was BMW thinking? Making a car that couldn't launch on a wet road with the nannies off?

I can see why many of us have zero issues with hop or DCT issues. BMW must go crazy with warranty claims they KNOW in their gut is from abuse.

Guys, nothing wrong with picking at a car's flaws, but asking it to do what it wasn't and shouldn't be designed to do seems a bit odd.

Not saying you don't get wheel hope in other circumstances, and not saying this isn't a great product. I'm saying this is a bad example of one has to do to get wheel hop.

Cheers,
e46e92
i agree not trying to say i beat my car. just suprised when people say it doenst happen. it has never happened without me trying to induce it. i dont go to the track and get wheel hop so this fix serves no purpose for me. i manage the traction circle with my feet and hands.
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      03-19-2013, 10:07 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by surlynkid View Post
oxygen free tank?? do you know how to TIG weld? not much different than welding stainless besides the rod you use. same argon.
Surlynkid:
I have no idea how to weld.
Ti doesn't like Oxygen. If you'd like to read about the what Ti does at high-temperatures when it reacts with oxygen please ask a scientist or consult Google.
From what I've read and what I've heard from fabricators for high strength welds (which you might want on suspension components) you need to weld your Titanium in an oxygen free environment.
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      03-19-2013, 10:18 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by esquire View Post
VCM, Swamp, Malek - can either of you elaborate on how this product differs from a solid rear subframe (such as that discussed in THIS thread)? [/b]
This product adds to the benefits of the subframe mounts, NVH in either setup is controlled largely by your subframe bushings and sound deadening (which are not to be coughed at.) Are they 'racecar' noises? No, you can't hear them. Sometimes people hear a very faint high pitched whine when decelerating from the differential only with the music off and the windows up. When your exhaust isn't doing anything...

Where this differs from the solid subframe bushings is that it adds on top of them and bolts onto your rear differential, the stock differential is mounted in 3 points,
two smaller bushings and one large rear offset bushing. This doesn't spread forces across the subframe of the car, what the brace does is positively locks the differential to the subframe with two polyurethane bushings on either end of the differential, providing more surface area for the forces exerted on the differential to spread out and keeping it from twisting.
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      03-19-2013, 11:01 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by surlynkid View Post
oxygen free tank?? do you know how to TIG weld? not much different than welding stainless besides the rod you use. same argon.
Yeah It's called a "glovebox",purged with argon. I weld everything to FAA standards, and I'm aerospace tig certified...I'm pretty sure you have to "know how to tig weld" to get that one lol. Sure, you "could" free-air Ti if you want some pretty and brittle pile of weak trash, this a stressed unit. As uniter mentioned, look it up.
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      03-19-2013, 11:17 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by defivfab View Post
Yeah It's called a "glovebox",purged with argon. I weld everything to FAA standards, and I'm aerospace tig certified...I'm pretty sure you have to "know how to tig weld" to get that one lol. Sure, you "could" free-air Ti if you want some pretty and brittle pile of weak trash, this a stressed unit. As uniter mentioned, look it up.
i have a syncrowave 180 in the garage. i know how to tig weld. maybe it is the picture, but the welds on the brace in picture don't look so hot. FAA or no FAA, there are plenty of industries that require extremely good welds. we do 100% radiography. when chemical plants go boom, it is a problem. some items are too big to just stick the whole thing in a box. purge from inside on separate feed and at cup.
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      03-19-2013, 11:20 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uniter View Post
Surlynkid:
I have no idea how to weld.
Ti doesn't like Oxygen. If you'd like to read about the what Ti does at high-temperatures when it reacts with oxygen please ask a scientist or consult Google.
From what I've read and what I've heard from fabricators for high strength welds (which you might want on suspension components) you need to weld your Titanium in an oxygen free environment.
all tig welding is in an oxygen free environment (CS, SS, Inconel, Hastelloy, Duplex 2205, Ti or anything). it just is not in a box. i am an engineer. i have the science covered.
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      03-19-2013, 12:22 PM   #66
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This Esquire.


Quote:
Originally Posted by uniter View Post
This product adds to the benefits of the subframe mounts, NVH in either setup is controlled largely by your subframe bushings and sound deadening (which are not to be coughed at.) Are they 'racecar' noises? No, you can't hear them. Sometimes people hear a very faint high pitched whine when decelerating from the differential only with the music off and the windows up. When your exhaust isn't doing anything...

Where this differs from the solid subframe bushings is that it adds on top of them and bolts onto your rear differential, the stock differential is mounted in 3 points,
two smaller bushings and one large rear offset bushing. This doesn't spread forces across the subframe of the car, what the brace does is positively locks the differential to the subframe with two polyurethane bushings on either end of the differential, providing more surface area for the forces exerted on the differential to spread out and keeping it from twisting.
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