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      03-16-2013, 03:08 AM   #1
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WTF, GM Dealers? - A Rant

Sorry for ranting, but I just gotta write this out to get it off my chest. Feel free to hit me with the cool-story-bro's then ignore. I deserve it.

Back in the summer of 2011 I was coming out of an 2008 E90 M3 6MT. I was getting ready to jump into a 2011 E90 M3 M-DCT (MSRP $81k, purchase price $75k, all prices CDN) when I found a 2011 Cadillac CTS-V 6MT (MSRP $81k, Employee Pricing $73k). Didn't work out, partly because I was going into my 5th BMW (4th at the same dealer) while I would be a new GM customer. So, I went with the BMW.

Since then, it gnawed at me a bit, as a few of my posts showed. Once every few months, I'd hit AutoTrader and GM Canada's website to look for a stick CTS-V.

This week, found this one: http://wwwa.autotrader.ca/a/CADILLAC...howcpo=ShowCPO

Went to a local GM dealer to talk. Had them appraise my car (~24500km mileage, delivered August 2011). Here is a comparo: http://wwwa.autotrader.ca/a/BMW/M/NO...howcpo=ShowCPO

I figured that since they are not a BMW dealer, they can't CPO it, but should still be able to list it for $55k - $60k. I'd take $50k - $55k and then talk them down on the new car....

...nope. "We're gonna wholesale it, not gonna keep it, so we can only do $43k. Also, why is your car red instead of white or black or silver or grey?" Financed at 0.9% for 48mos, that came out to be $1800+ per month, or $86k+ over the term. My current BMW finance is ~$50k over the term.

"We have no more room because the company is only making $1500 out of this deal."

$36k difference, too far apart, not going to even TRY to negotiate, no thanks.

Called the selling dealer directly, figuring that they might be more willing to play ball, especially since they've had this car over the winter. Gave them some basic info and VIN of my car over the phone, then waited for them to call back.

"We can do $50k on the trade."

Well, that's a good start, and frankly I'm not too bothered on the trade-in value as long as the new car is discounted appropriatedly....

"Sorry, we can at most do another $1k off. The car already had a $2500 cash-back from GM so you can think of it as $3500 off from $82500."

Um, $1k off for an $80k car, 1.25% discount. I've never heard of such a "deal." Besides, that came out to be ~$28k more than what I would pay if I keep the BMW.

The reason why I keep going back to "how much extra do I have to pay instead" is because, frankly, disregarding performance, the CTS-V is NOT BETTER than a BMW M3. The rear-seat leg room is about the same, head room a bit less, trunk a bit bigger, whole thing is longer and wider and heavier, nav and entertainment system is worse. Looks are subjective.

Over my M3, it's got an intercooled supercharger, trick shocks, Brembos and Recaros. And you know what? For $27k, I can do all those things and still have something leftover for a rainy day fund. Combined with M-DCT, despite the torque deficit, my M3 with $27k thrown at it will be faster, smaller, lighter, more agile, stop better, while still maintaining the convenience parity between a CTS-V Sedan and an E90 M3.

And that, is what I will do. Normally I advocate just buying something from the factory with everything you need, but unfortunately, this time around, the sensible thing seems to be anything BUT that

Sorry again for the rant, but I feel better now. *goes looking for a pair of Recaro PPs*

PS I guess once a BMW owner, I will have to continue to be a BMW owner, because other than a BMW dealership, nobody else will give me a fair trade-in.

PSS Sure, I can go to BMW and talk about an F10 M5. However, even putting aside the possible performance parity between that and the CTS-V, and whether or not the S63 is an actual "Motorsport" engine vs. the Cadillac's full-on 6th-gen Corvette drivetrain, an F10 M5 stickers at $110k CDN here. Even with my usual don't-need-to-ask 8% discount combined with BMW Car Club of Canada's extra 2%, that's still $100k. Even with my car valued at $60k, that's $40k to make up, at a worse rate than what I'm paying. No can do.
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      03-16-2013, 08:08 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skullbussa View Post
Sell your car outright to a private buyer.
x2. Ask the GM dealer about an "in and out." If you don't know how this works, here is the basic run down.
1. You find a buyer for your car and agree on a price.
2. You arrange a purchase deal on your new car (CTS-V).
3. You then sell your current car to the dealership for the price you agreed to with your buyer minus some small amount (usually 200-500). This is profit to the dealership, but its worth it to you on tax savings and also makes it worth it to them to offer the in and out.
4. The dealership then sells your old car to the buyer you found at the sale price you agreed to and applies the amount towards your new car as a trade-in value. This can save you lots of taxes (at least in the states it does).
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      03-16-2013, 01:08 PM   #3
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All dealers are like that. They either offer you a great deal on the new car and try to screw you with your trade-in or they give you a great trade-in value and dont want to discount the new car. You can try other dealers or sell the car yourself.
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      03-16-2013, 01:26 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by swanson View Post
They either offer you a great deal on the new car and try to screw you with your trade-in or they give you a great trade-in value and dont want to discount the new car.
...and similar replies above. Ahh, but doesn't it look like I've gotten NEITHER? It's not like they're offering to take my M3 in at an obvious loss, so they have to play hardball with the new car price in order to keep their profits.

The selling dealer stands to make $5k (at that $55k CDN selling price, it will be THE CHEAPEST non-salvage 2011 M3 in the entire nation) - $10k profit from my trade, while the local dealer will be looking at $10k - $15k.

And what did they offer on the new car over such "hardship?" "We're only making $1500 so no room" for the local dealer, while the selling dealer offered a measly $1k.

I don't get the vibe that even if I were to sell privately and bring cash, I'd get anywhere. In fact, shouldn't I get even LESS?
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      03-16-2013, 08:57 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skullbussa View Post
Have you researched what prices people are paying for these CTS-Vs? Have you researched the trade-in value for your car? Finding the asking price of a similar BMW is not going to get you **anywhere** close to what a dealer is going to offer you for your car.
Well, there's no local or even regional "Cadillac" enthusiast forums that I know of, so I wouldn't know where to find average purchase prices like I can so easily here. Based on availability it looks like each dealer only goes through 2-3 CTS-Vs per year. As for ones with the manual gearbox, there hasn't been one ordered in and available for sale locally ever since the one I looked at almost 2 years ago.

As for researching the trade-in value of my car, sure.... Canadian Black Book says $56k - $59k, while VMR Canada has a wholesale price of $52k and expected retail price of $56k.

The selling dealer's trade-in offer was palatable, but only offering $1k off the car was not. As for the local dealer's trade-in offer of $43k... what a joke.
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      03-16-2013, 09:20 PM   #6
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You aren't alone. It seems here in Canada the dealers remind of the stereotypical 70s-80s dealers you see on TV. The cheesy salesmen who knows almost nothing about the cars they sell other than the few hot button options they feel they can charge you more for. They are not interested in customer retention, although they try hard to pretend they are to you face. When presented with knowledge about their products outside of their understanding you get the cold shoulder, especially when it comes down to comparing prices/deals/options, etc.

I recently had a similar experience with a Dodge dealer when I was considering upgrading my truck and went through someone who was a friend of a friend and a previous client of mine. He constantly promoted his trucks over our work trucks and said he would be very accommodating if I was looking to upgrade. Come to him for the best deal he would say, blah blah. Long story short, I showed up and he gave me a rushed test drive on a loaded 1500 ram, I sent him specs of my truck and told him I was interested and it took him 3 days later to hear back only to get a ridiculously low trade in on my truck (11k below the lowest retail truck of its kind in Ontario, didnt check Canada). So I, Like yourself, thought maybe he was going to meet me somewhere in the middle in terms of at least the purchase price of the new truck. He kept saying I was getting some great deal but it turns out the only deal he was offering was the factory incentive offered by Ram Canada on ALL trucks, all the while trying to pass it off as some great deal he conjured up for me only. Essentially I told him where to put it and decided to keep my truck.

GM is not any better, we redesign and revamp the exterior of the GM dealerships and they're all the same. I had a friend working there, of whom I bought my truck off of, and he quit because of how sleazy his "top notch" GM dealership did business and how they treated customers as well as fair salesmen trying to get people a fair deal.

My experience at Ford locally was much shorter but just as humorous. I went in to check pricing on the new 2013 gt500 in my work clothes and one of my employees and I could not for the life of me get a straight answer or get taken seriously. 3 fat salesmen picking their noses and playing solitaire couldn't get up and see if I needed any information. I had to actually go hunt one down, and when I did he did not know anything about the new model, changes between model years or even when they could get one. Needless to say I took my business elsewhere.

I'm sorry to hear you had an equally annoying experience. The only and best experience I've had was at Endras BMW. I'm sure there are a few other good dealers out there, but I have yet to find any. Especially domestics.

Adam
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      03-16-2013, 09:52 PM   #7
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Try here
http://www.cadillacforums.com/
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      03-16-2013, 09:56 PM   #8
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haha wtf is that... thats the worst forum I've ever laid eyes on.
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      03-16-2013, 11:29 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swanson View Post
Yeah, it's the only Cadillac V-series forum I've actually found. The layout is nasty but I actually have gotten some good information there... probably because it's the only one out there, people have to gather SOMEWHERE

For example, I don't think anywhere else talks about clicking wheel bearings and rocking Recaros....

However, I've not read about a local Vancouver owner posting there. Someone from Calgary (where the car I was looking at is currently located, actually) once, but no closer.

R3DL1N3, I just found it very strange that when you're in a BMW dealership buying an $80k CDN car, you are treated as if you are about to spend $80k and thus they accept that you will bargain a bit. They also know that you bought the very car you are about to trade in with them, and so are willing to take it in at $5k less than market, CPO it for $2k, then make a reasonable $3k profit from it; they realize that you know the market and will check on them anyways.

Whereas, now I've dealt with 5 GM dealers now, and ALL OF THEM give me the vibe that they're already making nothing even when selling an $80k car at MSRP. Personally I think that stems from the same dealership, the same salesperson, sells everything from the $10k Chevy Spark to the $100k Corvette ZR1. I won't even get into product knowledge, because the lack thereof is to be expected, but the attitude is just... dunno, weird, I can't seem to work with them like I do with BMW dealerships
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      03-16-2013, 11:46 PM   #10
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http://www.ctsvowners.com/forum/forum.php
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      03-16-2013, 11:46 PM   #11
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It seems to me that dealerships just cant help trying for either a takedown on the new car sale or the trade when you do both. Not scoring on one or the other just seems to be too much of a bitter pill for them to swallow. The in/out is the best deal going particularly in states like mine that have sales tax approaching or exceeding 9%. Failing that a private sale followed by a separate new car buy I think is the likely to net you the best total deal.

You are looking for a car that will soon be unavailable and the sticks are a rare find on the ground. The dealer likely figures he will find someone to buy it at or near invoice and my guess is he may very well be right. I was looking at CTS-Vs when I got the M3 but couldn't find a stick anywhere in my area to test drive. I did like the car but wouldn't buy the auto. Eventually I gave up on getting a test drive when it turned out there wasn't even a single stick on the ground in the entire western US at the time.
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      03-17-2013, 07:21 AM   #12
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Wait what's the problem with selling the car yourself? I never do trade ins because that's just giving the salesperson another avenue to work an unfavorable deal towards you.
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      03-17-2013, 01:38 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by dreamspeed View Post
Wait what's the problem with selling the car yourself?
#1 is how the sales tax work up here in Canada (and also certain US states, it seems). When we trade in a used car to buy a new car, we only pay the sales tax on the price difference between the 2 values, if the new car price is higher obviously.

I can also list my car privately then have the dealer take over the transaction, which is the "in-and-out" a few of you have suggested, so I get private sale price and also the tax savings. Unfortunately I am not local to the selling dealer, so I think it will be somewhat difficult for me to list my car then close the sale 500mi away.

#2 Our provincial luxury tax for purchases over $55k comes back next month. That will be another 5% hit to me, so I was hoping to have the deal done before then. Hard to predict when a private sale will go through.

Of course that doesn't affect the selling dealer because they are in the next province over, so I didn't mention that.

Still, if they gave me a screaming deal on the new car but then lowball me on the trade, then it makes sense for me to explore private sale and in-and-out. However, they are lowballing me on the trade and then standing firm on the new car. I don't even see what I can work woth :-(
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      03-18-2013, 11:20 PM   #14
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Just for reference my roommates 2011 E90 M3 6 speed, comp package, technology (no cold weather, DCT) was 53k out the door CPO'd with 13900mi on it.

What's getting me is why they won't move on the CTS-V. Might want to try a dealer that has a bigger supply. It seems like only moving 1k down here in the Southeast on one would put them out of business.
A 27k hit is big, but with a new body style out now and production on all M3's coming to an end I would expect at least a 15k hit.

If I were in your position i'd just supercharged the M3 and throw some brakes on it. You can make 500rwhp 5.5-6psi, you won't have to deal with Garmin like CTS-V technology and like you mentioned, it's much lighter.

A CTS-V with intake/pulley/tune etc. is a 11.5@121-125mph car, an ESS stage 1 M3 is a 11.2-11.7@121-124 mph car as people have proven
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