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      03-14-2013, 09:59 AM   #23
bruce.augenstein@comcast.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3takesNYC View Post
Not sure this is really relevent. How many people go from a stop light these days? Even setup races are done from a roll and practically speaking when driving we measure the power from already driving. So yes the AWD launches much better than a RWD m3. No shocker but from 20-30mph roll it would be lights out...
In my opinion, more people go from stoplights than from a highway roll, but is this in any way relevant?

From my point of view, here's how it tends to stack up, performance wise:

Drag Strip - Minor advantage to the RS5, given its AWD banzai launch. Best M3 magazine time I've seen is the C & D 12.4 @ 114 in an auto. Best RS5 time is a 12.2 @ 113.6 from Road & Track.

Out on the highway, side by side, it seems as if the M3 has a minor advantage, given its slightly better power to weight ratio, and the Audi's AWD paraphernalia. I'd guess that from, say 120 and up, the Audi's horsepower advantage would tend to assert itself, resulting in a slight advantage at that point. On the other hand, there aren't many races in the U.S. from 120 up. In point of fact there were seven such races in 2012, and two so far in 2013.

Race track: Advantage Audi, by a fairly small but measureable margin.

Back road: Perhaps a slightly larger advantage to Audi, based on the fact that everybody's a bit more timorous in this environment, and the Audi is easier to just punch it out of corners.

Back road, continued: On the other hand, unless you're in a battle to the death with your buddy in the "other" car (in which case you're both idiots), the bimmer is the back-road bandit of choice, with more nuanced steering, and that ability to go from understeer to neutral to oversteer that only rear wheel drive cars can achieve, given some expertise behind the wheel.

Yeah, the Audi is very good for an awd car, but the bimmer is the better "sport" driver by a clear margin.

So, what does this come down to?

Nothing. These cars are remarkably competitive, so pick your poison.

Bruce

PS - Both cars sing the 8000-rpm song so beloved of M devotees on this forum, so nothing to pick from there, although I think the Audi sounds more delicious in everyday driving.

Last edited by bruce.augenstein@comcast.; 03-14-2013 at 11:05 AM. Reason: Spelling
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      03-14-2013, 10:24 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex07M3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uiop View Post
The APR tune for C7 S6/7 brings it to 560hp. Same as RS7. The baseline dyno showed 480hp stock, not 420.
Yep and 600ft/lbs of torque!!

Probably low 11s 1/4mile since already 12.0 with 480hp! No doupt Audi has the edge on BMW when it comes to turbo engines!! The last RS6 came with 580hp and can be tuned to more then 700hp.

Bye bye M5 for 20k less!
I remember some at Unlim with over 800. Too bad it wasn't sold in the US. Also 3/4 of the 6000 were avants, and an 800 HP avant is pretty sick.
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      03-14-2013, 11:15 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
In my opinion, more people go from stoplights than from a highway roll, but is this in any way relevant?

From my point of view, here's how it tends to stack up, performance wise:

Drag Strip - Minor advantage to the RS5, given its AWD banzai launch. Best M3 magazine time I've seen is the C & D 12.4 @ 114 in an auto. Best RS5 time is a 12.2 @ 113.6 from Road & Track.

Out on the highway, side by side, it seems as if the M3 has a minor advantage, given its slightly better power to weight ratio, and the Audi's AWD paraphernalia. I'd guess that from, say 120 and up, the Audi's horsepower advantage would tend to assert itself, resulting in a slight advantage at that point. On the other hand, there aren't many races in the U.S. from 120 up. In point of fact there were seven such races in 2012, and two so far in 2013.

Race track: Advantage Audi, by a fairly small but measureable margin.

Back road: Perhaps a slightly larger advantage to Audi, based on the fact that everybody's a bit more timorous in this environment, and the Audi is easier to just punch it out of corners.

Back road, continued: On the other hand, unless you're in a battle to the death with your buddy in the "other" car (in which case you're both idiots), the bimmer is the back-road bandit of choice, with more nuanced steering, and that ability to go from understeer to neutral to oversteer that only rear wheel drive cars can achieve, given some expertise behind the wheel.

Yeah, the Audi is very good for an awd car, but the bimmer is the better "sport" driver by a clear margin.

So, what does this come down to?

Nothing. These cars are remarkably competitive, so pick your poison.

Bruce

PS - Both cars sing the 8000-rpm song so beloved of M devotees on this forum, so nothing to pick from there, although I think the Audi sounds more delicious in everyday driving.
Bruce where do you gett his stuff? Have you even driven one? The m3 consistently pulls on the Rs5 from absolutely any rolling start from 30mph and up. Seen it many times.

And at the track there has been many tests showing the m3 is faster around a lot of tracks. Moreso than any audi was faster.

I like the audi but to say all these specific scenarios which just are not true is what im pointing out
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      03-14-2013, 12:03 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brava09 View Post
Below 120mph? I would say maybe only up to 60mph, once rolling the M3 is faster
One thing I can say is that I raced a stock RS5 on the highway and I also raced a stock manual M3 and only the RS5 gave me a bit of show!
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      03-14-2013, 12:07 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Onurleft View Post
What I meant to say is, from a stop, in a real world red light situation, the M3 is going to need at least 100+ mph to surpass the RS5.
Happily real world situation is a lot more rolling race then red light race! I had modified AWD cars for the pas 10 years and I can count on my hand how much time I raced from a light and believe me I do a lot of street race!(always in a secure environement)
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Last edited by Alex07M3; 03-15-2013 at 11:01 AM.
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      03-14-2013, 12:13 PM   #28
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OP I am debating this as well. I can from an RS4 and I swore I would never get another Audi. If you have rad my previous responses on other topics similar I had the engine replaced 2 times in a 50k period and I was the only owner.
I moved to an e90 m and I love it back in 2010 and still own it. Ended up buying a TTRS for a daily driver bc I did not want to put any more miles on my M as I drive alot for work. Car has about 38k on it now and my TTRS has 16k in 1 year.

Went this week to think about trading the TRRS In for the RS5 as I want a bigger coupe and the TT is not as practical as I thought. The TT does get incredible gas mileage and as a STAGE2 it goes like hell. Very fast car.

I am considering the RS5, but I am concerned about the tranny as I love the 6spd as all my cars in the last 8 years have been stick.

I hear it good and the steering isn't as numb as some write ups suggest.

Definitely need to drive it though to get a feel of the car. I was told by the dealer I could get 60k for my TTRS. Not bad considering I spent 59k with a 65k sticker price!

Go drive it and see. The DCT is an incredible tranny all though I have only driven it a few times. I almost regret at times going with the 6spd in the M bc it feels so sloppy and not well built considering the rest of the car.
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      03-14-2013, 12:19 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3takesNYC View Post
Bruce where do you gett his stuff? Have you even driven one? The m3 consistently pulls on the Rs5 from absolutely any rolling start from 30mph and up. Seen it many times.

And at the track there has been many tests showing the m3 is faster around a lot of tracks. Moreso than any audi was faster.I like the audi but to say all these specific scenarios which just are not true is what im pointing out
true but also a lot of test showed the RS5 to be faster, like this one!

Also it's important to note that 99% of drivers are gonna be faster around a track in the RS5, only really experimented drivers are gonna perform the way it could with the M3!

In every case, IMO the most important thing is how much FUN you have with a car and that is no doupt a categorie that the M3 wins!

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      03-14-2013, 02:01 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3takesNYC View Post
Bruce where do you gett his stuff?
Mostly from road tests, and Internet sources.

Quote:
Originally Posted by M3takesNYC View Post
Have you even driven one?
Have several hours in M3s, and one short test drive in an RS5. Not enough to make my comments a result of personal experience. Plus I've never driven either on track.

Quote:
Originally Posted by M3takesNYC View Post
The m3 consistently pulls on the Rs5 from absolutely any rolling start from 30mph and up. Seen it many times.
So, what part of my "Out on the highway, side by side, it seems as if the M3 has a minor advantage, given its slightly better power to weight ratio, and the Audi's AWD paraphernalia." didn't you get. It seems we've seen more or less the same Internet races. So what's your beef, exactly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by M3takesNYC View Post
And at the track there has been many tests showing the m3 is faster around a lot of tracks. Moreso than any audi was faster.
OK, I'll bite. I'm using THIS reference, wherein the Audi was quicker on 12 out of 15 tracks.

Now show me yours.

Quote:
Originally Posted by M3takesNYC View Post
I like the audi but to say all these specific scenarios which just are not true is what im pointing out
Now, point out what isn't true, please, and be specific.
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      03-14-2013, 02:55 PM   #31
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I really like the RS5 and it makes a lot of sense in climates with plenty of days of rain and snow but they're a bit overpriced and I would constantly be thinking about "when am I gonna need a carbon clean?"
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      03-14-2013, 03:23 PM   #32
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They are both cars with different characters. RWD v quattro, 4.0 v 4.2, 414 v 444, 295 v 317. Just pick the car that you are attracted to. This is why I picked the RS4, sure it has maintenance issues, but if you want to maintain a sports sedan/coupe, a carbon clean for a few hundred won't kill you.
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      03-14-2013, 04:01 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uiop View Post
They are both cars with different characters. RWD v quattro, 4.0 v 4.2, 414 v 444, 295 v 317. Just pick the car that you are attracted to. This is why I picked the RS4, sure it has maintenance issues, but if you want to maintain a sports sedan/coupe, a carbon clean for a few hundred wont kill you.
The weight difference taken in consideration, this shows more the similarity in their character then the difference, you also forgot that they both have 7speed dual clutch gear box!

A C63(big displacement, lots of torque) would have a different character but RS5 and M3, prety similar(small displacement, low torque, high reving)!
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      03-14-2013, 06:39 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uiop View Post
They are both cars with different characters. RWD v quattro, 4.0 v 4.2, 414 v 444, 295 v 317. Just pick the car that you are attracted to. This is why I picked the RS4, sure it has maintenance issues, but if you want to maintain a sports sedan/coupe, a carbon clean for a few hundred won't kill you.
$1000 almost yearly for a design flaw isn't my cup of tea.
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      03-14-2013, 07:15 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by signes View Post
Drove one and honestly wasn't that impressed, would almost prefer an RS4. Looks great, sounds great, but felt underwhelming to me on the road (and it was a demo car that they really let me push.) Even though it is, it just didn't feel very fast and lacked feel.
How can you be impressed. You Drive an m3.
I've tested few local "fast"cars and did not find anything exciting about them. Until salesperson mentioned that I'm driving. 600 hp car on Daily basis.
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      03-14-2013, 07:58 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
Mostly from road tests, and Internet sources.



Have several hours in M3s, and one short test drive in an RS5. Not enough to make my comments a result of personal experience. Plus I've never driven either on track.



So, what part of my "Out on the highway, side by side, it seems as if the M3 has a minor advantage, given its slightly better power to weight ratio, and the Audi's AWD paraphernalia." didn't you get. It seems we've seen more or less the same Internet races. So what's your beef, exactly.



OK, I'll bite. I'm using THIS reference, wherein the Audi was quicker on 12 out of 15 tracks.

Now show me yours.



Now, point out what isn't true, please, and be specific.
Exactly-all this data but no real seat time or experience. I see my friends RS5 a couple times a week and have had countless runs of anything you can imagine. So its taking the same weather, same drivers as we are both DCt and really has no room for much difference and have seen the clear consistent differences I pointed out.

If you have 12/15 track events being taken by the rs5 than ok. I asked for a source of data given you were giving such specifics such as "slight edge" etc. But makes sense, you really have no personal experience with RS5
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      03-14-2013, 11:35 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3takesNYC View Post
Exactly-all this data but no real seat time or experience. I see my friends RS5 a couple times a week and have had countless runs of anything you can imagine. So its taking the same weather, same drivers as we are both DCt and really has no room for much difference and have seen the clear consistent differences I pointed out.

If you have 12/15 track events being taken by the rs5 than ok. I asked for a source of data given you were giving such specifics such as "slight edge" etc. But makes sense, you really have no personal experience with RS5
OK, I gave you a clickable reference to a highly credible source, and I assume you didn't bother with it. I suggest that you DO bother with it, as you'll discover that it realy is a very credible source, and the evidence is incontrovertible.

Furthermore, you said "And at the track there has been many tests showing the m3 is faster around a lot of tracks. Moreso than any audi was faster."

...and I asked you to name the tracks and show the times, as I have done.

And you duck, as usual. Do everybody a favor, and admit you lied, or post the tracks, etc.

Now, we agree that from a roll, the bimmer should be quicker. I said this based on magazine tests, power to weight, and awd vs rwd.

You figure this by street racing in your buddy's car. Frankly, I trust my findings vs a single anecdote from a very questionable source. Meaning you.

Put up or shut up. Point me to the data showing how the M3 is quicker around "many" tracks. I've had it with your unsupported BS.
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      03-15-2013, 10:49 AM   #38
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^^^

Agree Bruce, good references.

But you have been around long enough to know the rule of the m3post fanboy like this guy.

M3>ALL

The one good thing I can say for the m3 fanboy is that at least they have passion for their car, that's a good thing.
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      03-15-2013, 10:57 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post

Put up or shut up. Point me to the data showing how the M3 is quicker around "many" tracks. I've had it with your unsupported BS.
Way to call him out. I for one am fed up with his lack of fact/substance behind his claims!
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      03-15-2013, 11:02 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by BMRLVR View Post
Way to call him out. I for one am fed up with his lack of fact/substance behind his claims!
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      03-15-2013, 12:03 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3takesNYC View Post
Not sure this is really relevent. How many people go from a stop light these days? Even setup races are done from a roll and practically speaking when driving we measure the power from already driving.
Why is that? I was thinking about it the other day (when some knucklehead in a Mazdaspeed was trying to race). I didn't bother, but if I had he would no doubt have wanted to go from a roll.

Why is that okay? A good launch is part of racing. The two reasons I can think of, for those who street race, are a) there are a lot of kids with FWD that don't launch well, (in which case, man up...), and b) it can be loud and attract official attention - in which case, either man up or don't race.

What am I missing?

Cheers
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      03-15-2013, 12:26 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chriskm3 View Post
How can you be impressed. You Drive an m3.
I've tested few local "fast"cars and did not find anything exciting about them. Until salesperson mentioned that I'm driving. 600 hp car on Daily basis.
I am actual a fan of Audis, esp the RS cars. Love my car but it was a close call for me between the E90 and RS4. When I first drove the E90 I was also expecting more, mostly the sensation of speed/torque but don't need to rehash that. The RS5, even after a long/hard drive, still left me looking for more. Didn't seem to have that same RS feel that I got from the RS4, but also lacked in many other areas. Also felt pretty large. Great car for sure, but honestly not that "special" to entice me to switch (even after 5 years in my car.)
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      03-15-2013, 12:43 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3Now! View Post
Why is that? I was thinking about it the other day (when some knucklehead in a Mazdaspeed was trying to race). I didn't bother, but if I had he would no doubt have wanted to go from a roll.

Why is that okay? A good launch is part of racing. The two reasons I can think of, for those who street race, are a) there are a lot of kids with FWD that don't launch well, (in which case, man up...), and b) it can be loud and attract official attention - in which case, either man up or don't race.

What am I missing?

Cheers
You're missing the point that most people race to see wich is the faster car, not who's the best driver! So by eliminating the launch(which is most subject to drivers error) from the equation, you have a better chance to have a reliable result!
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      03-15-2013, 04:38 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex07M3 View Post
You're missing the point that most people race to see wich is the faster car, not who's the best driver! So by eliminating the launch(which is most subject to drivers error) from the equation, you have a better chance to have a reliable result!
I guess - but kinda thought the reason behind racing is to see who can go fastest, period. If a good driver in an M3 can beat a C6 Vette, kudos to the M3 - you beat the driver.

Clearly I just don't race enough
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