BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > E90/E92 M3 Technical Topics > Engine, Transmission, Exhaust, Drivetrain, ECU Software Modifications
 
E92 Lighting
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      03-12-2013, 10:46 AM   #45
Andrew@ActiveAutowerke
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor
Andrew@ActiveAutowerke's Avatar
90
Rep
3,583
Posts


 
Drives: 2014 435I M-sport
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Miami Fl

iTrader: (5)

This should give you a very good idea of the power differences between an fbo car and a stage 1 kit.

Dyno was compiled from the same car same dyno within 2 days of upgrades.


Stock vs FBo vs Gen 1 level 1(Old kit)

__________________

Last edited by Andrew@ActiveAutowerke; 03-12-2013 at 10:52 AM.
Appreciate 0
      03-12-2013, 10:56 AM   #46
Dave07997S
Colonel
38
Rep
2,555
Posts

 
Drives: 2013 BMW M3 ZCP Coupe
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Playa del Rey, CA

iTrader: (1)

Another issue with the blower is if you live in a state that does smog testing. How do you get around this? EAS and VF engineering are both in the state of California it would be nice to see a CARB exempt blower kit.

Dave
__________________
2013 M3 Coupe-MR/BLK ZCP, ACM test pipes, BPM Stg2 dev. tune and Megan catback, AFE Stg2. with C/F elbow
Previous rides: 2011 M3 Coupe-MR/Blk
2007 Porsche 997C2S Speed Yellow/Blk sport seats
2004 BMW M3 Imola/Blk
Appreciate 0
      03-12-2013, 11:00 AM   #47
Nautik
Captain
12
Rep
632
Posts

 
Drives: 2009 AW M3 DCT
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NoVA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by LarThaL View Post
I agree that catless/tune will give 25-30 whp. That is not 55hp. However, how much will a 25-30hp gain on top of 414hp make in your actual performance?

Lets look at this.

Firstly, even a stock M3 is traction limited in its low speed performance. Even if your car has 1000hp, it won't get off the line any faster. The first place to spend your money for actual increased performance is to increase the traction of the car so you can get the existing power to the ground better. So, you already need to invest in bigger wheels and wider tires.

Okay...so you argue that you are not into the whole drag strip thing, and that this is a "track car". OK, so in that case, let's see actual track times of otherwise equal cars with the only difference being basic NA mods. ( I say basic, because you are already talking about $4-5k for a good full exhaust and tune...about half the cost of a supercharger) I am willing to bet that all other things being equal, a car with just 25 more hp won't get around a track any faster in a statistically consistent manner. Your extra 25hp may get you a car length or two for all those times you get to an abandoned airstrip and can run your straight up to 150mph.

I reassert my point. By all means, do the NA mods, but do them for the change in subjective feel. Don't look for any meaningful actual performance gain.

And I am not in the least discounting the whole subjective feel thing. In the end, the joy of driving comes from a variety of sensory inputs and speed capability is only one of those.

Just don't kid yourself about what you are actually accomplishing. Believe me, I have done it all in 30 years of playing with cars....carburators, intakes, headers, exhausts, superchargers, turbochargers, standard and custom flashes, bigger and better this and that, etc. etc, etc. If you want clear cut power that you can really feel and use, get a supercharger, do the proper associated mods and be done with it.
Spoken like a man with some experience. Reminds me of the 2011 Shelby GT500. 550 HP and wasn't any faster than the M3 in the quarter mile. Like mentioned above, there are quite a few other factors to consider in order to actually do anything with more power.

I would disagree with spending 4-5k on exhaust and tune however. BMW put a lot of research into the stock exhaust I have no doubt. Paying a several thousand dollar premium over a test pipe for what might net 5 more hp at most is probably not worth it for street and non-competitive track purposes. I would think 2k should get you test pipes installed tune and maybe pullies. Those 3 should be getting you more than 30whp at least from the dyno charts forum members have been posting.

*edit* That said if you are a baller, have several cars, and could care less about the cost then do whatever you want
__________________
2009 e92 M3 - AW DCT - Apex Arc8s - Corsa
Appreciate 0
      03-12-2013, 11:27 AM   #48
Chriskm3
Colonel
Chriskm3's Avatar
Canada
28
Rep
2,218
Posts

 
Drives: M3
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Toronto

iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave07997S View Post
Another issue with the blower is if you live in a state that does smog testing. How do you get around this? EAS and VF engineering are both in the state of California it would be nice to see a CARB exempt blower kit.

Dave
This is a very good point Dave.
__________________
Vf supercharger + tune/H&R coils/ Akra evolution exhaust/Volk te37/ Rs-3 tires/ Brembos /TIal BOV/ OSS blacked out headlights/LUX v3/Led taillights/ Challenge Front lip/ P3 vent gauge/ F10 m5 shift mob/Matte black front grills/ And a funky air fresher
Appreciate 0
      03-12-2013, 12:36 PM   #49
M3NSCH
Private
0
Rep
73
Posts

 
Drives: Tuuuurbo
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: USA

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave07997S View Post
Another issue with the blower is if you live in a state that does smog testing. How do you get around this? EAS and VF engineering are both in the state of California it would be nice to see a CARB exempt blower kit.

Dave
Those same states don't allow aftermarket exhausts, x-pipes, etc - so it's a moot point. That's why everything is "for offroad use only".

You have to "find a way" to not get caught in either case. Albeit, swapping back to a stock exhaust is much easier than taking off a supercharger.
Appreciate 0
      03-12-2013, 02:02 PM   #50
Dave07997S
Colonel
38
Rep
2,555
Posts

 
Drives: 2013 BMW M3 ZCP Coupe
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Playa del Rey, CA

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by M3NSCH View Post
Those same states don't allow aftermarket exhausts, x-pipes, etc - so it's a moot point. That's why everything is "for offroad use only".

You have to "find a way" to not get caught in either case. Albeit, swapping back to a stock exhaust is much easier than taking off a supercharger.
Its not a moot point as your own post answered this very question..

Quote:
Albeit, swapping back to a stock exhaust is much easier than taking off a supercharger
Thats my whole point..

In fact in Cali we are going to just a OBDII port read. As long as all but one readiness codes are green you're a go. No more sniffer..what gets me worried is if they pop the hood. If you had to switch back to the OEM xpipe, no sweat.

Dave
__________________
2013 M3 Coupe-MR/BLK ZCP, ACM test pipes, BPM Stg2 dev. tune and Megan catback, AFE Stg2. with C/F elbow
Previous rides: 2011 M3 Coupe-MR/Blk
2007 Porsche 997C2S Speed Yellow/Blk sport seats
2004 BMW M3 Imola/Blk
Appreciate 0
      03-12-2013, 02:40 PM   #51
kerrit
Lieutenant
5
Rep
444
Posts

 
Drives: 2008 Melbourne Red E90 M3
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Bellevue, WA

iTrader: (3)

Garage List
If I lived in a state where it was mostly dry year round, I would have an SC.

I already have enough traction problems with FBO when it's wet half the year here, and SC would just make it worse.
Appreciate 0
      03-12-2013, 02:47 PM   #52
M3NSCH
Private
0
Rep
73
Posts

 
Drives: Tuuuurbo
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: USA

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave07997S View Post
Its not a moot point as your own post answered this very question..



Thats my whole point..

In fact in Cali we are going to just a OBDII port read. As long as all but one readiness codes are green you're a go. No more sniffer..what gets me worried is if they pop the hood. If you had to switch back to the OEM xpipe, no sweat.

Dave

Probably a good idea to talk to someone with a Supercharger in Cali then...

Now if only there was a device that could help you find other people in California with superchargers on their BMW M3s and ask them questions... This device would be like a combination of a TV and a typewriter, but with a connection like a phone. Maybe even a series of tubes...

I guess we'll never know.
Appreciate 0
      03-12-2013, 04:15 PM   #53
Jonjt
Lieutenant
5
Rep
497
Posts

 
Drives: 09 E92 335i M-sport
Join Date: May 2012
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by LarThaL View Post
I agree that catless/tune will give 25-30 whp. That is not 55hp. However, how much will a 25-30hp gain on top of 414hp make in your actual performance?

Lets look at this.

Firstly, even a stock M3 is traction limited in its low speed performance. Even if your car has 1000hp, it won't get off the line any faster. The first place to spend your money for actual increased performance is to increase the traction of the car so you can get the existing power to the ground better. So, you already need to invest in bigger wheels and wider tires.

Okay...so you argue that you are not into the whole drag strip thing, and that this is a "track car". OK, so in that case, let's see actual track times of otherwise equal cars with the only difference being basic NA mods. ( I say basic, because you are already talking about $4-5k for a good full exhaust and tune...about half the cost of a supercharger) I am willing to bet that all other things being equal, a car with just 25 more hp won't get around a track any faster in a statistically consistent manner. Your extra 25hp may get you a car length or two for all those times you get to an abandoned airstrip and can run your straight up to 150mph.

I reassert my point. By all means, do the NA mods, but do them for the change in subjective feel. Don't look for any meaningful actual performance gain.

And I am not in the least discounting the whole subjective feel thing. In the end, the joy of driving comes from a variety of sensory inputs and speed capability is only one of those.

Just don't kid yourself about what you are actually accomplishing. Believe me, I have done it all in 30 years of playing with cars....carburators, intakes, headers, exhausts, superchargers, turbochargers, standard and custom flashes, bigger and better this and that, etc. etc, etc. If you want clear cut power that you can really feel and use, get a supercharger, do the proper associated mods and be done with it.
Agree with everything you said.

However

40hp is a significant. BUT!, it will take a good driver and proper instruments to actually see the difference 40hp brings, at least, if you are road racing. But, a 40hp increase will definitely make the car faster for most of the driving M3 drivers do. Lane changes, merging and illegal road racing will see a benefit with a 40hp increase.
Appreciate 0
      03-12-2013, 07:02 PM   #54
LarThaL
Colonel
LarThaL's Avatar
65
Rep
2,634
Posts

 
Drives: 2011 M3
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: West Springfield, MA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonjt View Post
Agree with everything you said.

However

40hp is a significant. BUT!, it will take a good driver and proper instruments to actually see the difference 40hp brings, at least, if you are road racing. But, a 40hp increase will definitely make the car faster for most of the driving M3 drivers do. Lane changes, merging and illegal road racing will see a benefit with a 40hp increase.
Agreed. 40hp is signficant, but for every car that dynos a 40hp gain, there will be a car with the same mods that dynos only a 20hp gain and the owner will be scratching his head asking WTF?? My point is also in reference to the OP, who is considering a supercharger.
__________________
Precision tool: 2011 BMW ///M3
Sledgehammer: 2014 Audi S6

Appreciate 0
      03-12-2013, 11:18 PM   #55
Jonjt
Lieutenant
5
Rep
497
Posts

 
Drives: 09 E92 335i M-sport
Join Date: May 2012
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by LarThaL View Post
Agreed. 40hp is signficant, but for every car that dynos a 40hp gain, there will be a car with the same mods that dynos only a 20hp gain and the owner will be scratching his head asking WTF?? My point is also in reference to the OP, who is considering a supercharger.
No argument here.
Appreciate 0
      03-13-2013, 07:33 AM   #56
dmw16
Captain
18
Rep
931
Posts

 
Drives: 2005 ///M3
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Maryland

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by KROD View Post
...(there obviously is good reason for BMW moving to FI on their next generations)...
I don't think BMW is going to forced induction because they feel the current generation M3 lacks power. NA cars aren't going to throw you back in your seat like a FI car, but that's not what BMW has traditionally gone for in the M-cars. Instead it's been a wave of power that builds with the revs.

Quite to the contrary I think that the engineers at M would love to keep building special high-rev'ing NA engines. M is going FI because of business and political/environmental pressures.

Sorry, I don't want to derail this thread into an E9X vs F3X, NA vs FI, "They are ruining M" debate. But I thought it was worth mentioning that M is not going to FI so they can snap your head back when you hit the gas.
Appreciate 0
      03-13-2013, 08:35 AM   #57
KROD
Second Lieutenant
KROD's Avatar
United_States
7
Rep
219
Posts

 
Drives: IB E92 M3
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Texas

iTrader: (2)

Well I was referring to better power delivery/potential, and fuel efficiency. But yes I agree its not to solely build a more powerful car. BMW does need to step their game up though bc their competition (Mercedes for example) is putting out some real beasts straight from the factory in their new generations. I've always been a BMW and M fan and theres something about the M series that I just love.
__________________
Space Grey E92 M3
Appreciate 0
      03-13-2013, 09:00 AM   #58
dmw16
Captain
18
Rep
931
Posts

 
Drives: 2005 ///M3
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Maryland

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by KROD View Post
Well I was referring to better power delivery/potential, and fuel efficiency. But yes I agree its not to solely build a more powerful car. BMW does need to step their game up though bc their competition (Mercedes for example) is putting out some real beasts straight from the factory in their new generations. I've always been a BMW and M fan and theres something about the M series that I just love.
The AMG is just a different car I think. The AMG is sort of a sledgehammer approach.

I'd like to think if it weren't for fuel efficiency pressures that M could get more power from an NA power plant.

I love NA. FI is cheating
Appreciate 0
      03-13-2013, 09:54 AM   #59
M3NSCH
Private
0
Rep
73
Posts

 
Drives: Tuuuurbo
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: USA

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmw16 View Post
The AMG is just a different car I think. The AMG is sort of a sledgehammer approach.

I'd like to think if it weren't for fuel efficiency pressures that M could get more power from an NA power plant.

I love NA. FI is cheating
The AMGs are beasts... but let's be honest, the M's should at LEAST compete with them class vs class. Same goes for the RS Audi's.

Without a supercharger (and really, it's gotta be Stage 2+... the Stage 1 SCs don't cut it, thus so many for sale) the M3s frankly don't compete.

I'll also go so far to say that the reason for the turbos on the next gen is for power, with the added marketing line item of fuel efficiency. Remember the Toyota Supra (and others) were making massive power with an Inline 6/TwinTurbo setup 20 years ago! It's really about time BMW caught up and shows the world how to really do it right (look at the M5/M6).

And remember, at one time the other FI (Fuel Injection) was "cheating" to the carburated guys... Tomorrow electric motors (KERS anyone?) will be "cheating" to the turbo guys... Absolutely nothing wrong with using technology to win.
Appreciate 0
      03-13-2013, 10:55 AM   #60
dmw16
Captain
18
Rep
931
Posts

 
Drives: 2005 ///M3
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Maryland

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by M3NSCH View Post
The AMGs are beasts... but let's be honest, the M's should at LEAST compete with them class vs class. Same goes for the RS Audi's.

Without a supercharger (and really, it's gotta be Stage 2+... the Stage 1 SCs don't cut it, thus so many for sale) the M3s frankly don't compete.

I'll also go so far to say that the reason for the turbos on the next gen is for power, with the added marketing line item of fuel efficiency. Remember the Toyota Supra (and others) were making massive power with an Inline 6/TwinTurbo setup 20 years ago! It's really about time BMW caught up and shows the world how to really do it right (look at the M5/M6).

And remember, at one time the other FI (Fuel Injection) was "cheating" to the carburated guys... Tomorrow electric motors (KERS anyone?) will be "cheating" to the turbo guys... Absolutely nothing wrong with using technology to win.
I agree the power numbers should be similar, but even with additional power the C63 isn't going around the 'Ring any faster than the M3 (heck, it only beat the E46 CSL by 3sec). There's more to "fast" than horsepower and torque numbers. Having said that, I know people here know that but the buying public does want numbers. So BMW does need to be competitive.

There's no question that BMW is going FI to make more power, but I think it's largely to make more power in a less expensive way. They could get an NA engine up to competitive levels, but the costs would be too high.

FI is the way things are going and really I'm cool with that because I like fuel efficiency, but I will always love the great NA ///M engines.
Appreciate 0
      03-13-2013, 10:57 AM   #61
M3NSCH
Private
0
Rep
73
Posts

 
Drives: Tuuuurbo
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: USA

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmw16 View Post
I agree the power numbers should be similar, but even with additional power the C63 isn't going around the 'Ring any faster than the M3 (heck, it only beat the E46 CSL by 3sec). There's more to "fast" than horsepower and torque numbers. Having said that, I know people here know that but the buying public does want numbers. So BMW does need to be competitive.

There's no question that BMW is going FI to make more power, but I think it's largely to make more power in a less expensive way. They could get an NA engine up to competitive levels, but the costs would be too high.

FI is the way things are going and really I'm cool with that because I like fuel efficiency, but I will always love the great NA ///M engines.
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:34 AM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST