BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > M3 (E90 / E92 / E93) > General M3 Forum (E90 + E92 + E93)
 
Evolve Automotive
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      03-12-2013, 10:43 PM   #1
Radiation Joe
Veni Vidi Vici
Radiation Joe's Avatar
United_States
37
Rep
2,749
Posts

 
Drives: '11 JB/BBe-6sp-e90
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Macungie PA

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2011 e90 M3-Sold  [4.25]
2003 RS6 - Sold  [0.00]
2009 e90 M3 - Gone  [0.00]
2003 M3 SOLD  [0.00]
old 2002  [5.00]
An Old DCT Lag Rant

This is an old Rant I wrote when I was justifiably really pissed off at BMWNA. My 2009 e90 M3 was a lemon that they couldn't fix. This was the old DCT lag issue that is no longer present. I'm reprinting this because I'm sure the same A-holes that screwed me back then are probably still employed by BMWNA.
I admit that my problems may be worse than the majority of folks out there, but I am sure I am not alone. I'm just more vocal.

My software has been reloaded at least three times, not a patch, most of the day on the machine and I even had the DME replaced. This problem existed long before adding Dinan software. I had the DME reprogrammed multiple times before and after adding the Dinan software. If I thought there was even a remote chance that the Dinan programming was inhibiting the ability to remedy this situation I'd chuck it in a second. I had all of the adaptations cleared on my own dime because I though there might be a chance I could improve the situation. I wanted to pay to change the fluid in the God-forsaken transmission, and BMW said No.

I'm not going to argue with you over which came first, the chicken or the egg. The majority of aftermarket software worked fine before BMW found a reason to change the way the DME calculates engine torque. But this is not the issue. It was merely another fly in the ointment.

BMW does not have the technical expertise to program these cars properly and that is why we are suffering through this disaster. If they do, then my car is obviously flawed and they should have repaired it or taken it back.

And don't for a second think I'm just some hard to please whiny customer. I've always had manuals, but spent some time driving DSG equipped Audis and VWs. I liked that transmission so much I didn't hesitate to order the DCT in the BMW.

BMW clearly f****d up the engineering for this transmission. Just look at how bad it performed for anyone who tried to take one to the track during the first year of production. There was absolutely no excuse for that. Oh, lets not forget the stalling issue that brought about a half-as**d CYA reprogramming that gave us this lag issue in the first place.

MY CAR STILL LAGS FOR MULTIPLE SECONDS. NOT 500msecs, TWO F*****G SECONDS. I COMPLETELY CHANGE MY DRIVING STYLE OUT OF FEAR TO CROSS TRAFFIC IN THIS PIECE OF S**T; AND STILL I GET CAUGHT OFF GUARD OCCASIONALLY, ENDANGERING MYSELF AND OTHER DRIVERS.

I KNOW YOU M***********S AT BMWNA READ THIS S**T. WHY DON'T YOU COME OUT FROM BEHIND YOUR DESKS AND EXPLAIN WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON HERE. OH YEAH. YOU'RE THE SAME P**S ANTS THAT TRIED TO CONVINCE US THAT THE LAG WAS, AND I QUOTE, "NORMAL VEHICLE OPERATION". GO F**K YOURSELVES.

Last edited by Radiation Joe
; 02-21-2010 at 09:19 AM. Reason: Tone down a few words from the rant

__________________

Dinan compliment of stuff plus PF rotors and RG63s. Enough for now.
Why, yes. I am an abrasive bastard.
Appreciate 0
      03-12-2013, 10:45 PM   #2
Uiop
Private First Class
2
Rep
156
Posts

 
Drives: BMW
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Boston

iTrader: (0)

Should've just gotten 6MT
Appreciate 0
      03-12-2013, 10:46 PM   #3
Vic311
Banned
United_States
17
Rep
1,469
Posts

 
Drives: 2011 e92 M3
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: NY

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uiop View Post
Should've just gotten 6MT
+1
Appreciate 0
      03-12-2013, 10:50 PM   #4
Radiation Joe
Veni Vidi Vici
Radiation Joe's Avatar
United_States
37
Rep
2,749
Posts

 
Drives: '11 JB/BBe-6sp-e90
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Macungie PA

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2011 e90 M3-Sold  [4.25]
2003 RS6 - Sold  [0.00]
2009 e90 M3 - Gone  [0.00]
2003 M3 SOLD  [0.00]
old 2002  [5.00]
I did.
__________________

Dinan compliment of stuff plus PF rotors and RG63s. Enough for now.
Why, yes. I am an abrasive bastard.
Appreciate 0
      03-13-2013, 12:25 AM   #5
swamp2
Lieutenant General
swamp2's Avatar
United_States
215
Rep
10,201
Posts

 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

iTrader: (1)

RJ: Thanks for reigniting my passion for this topic. I am also suffering as I beg to disagree - this lag is still present!

Although I have vehemently argued in the past that some sort of purposeful adaptation routine, that attempts to intelligently modify the DCT software to the user driving style, absolutely does not exist, my lag has grown from truly imperceptible to clearly present, annoying and bad enough to be borderline unsafe at times. It can be particularly bad under circumstances which also under prior software versions could cause lag. Medium, even speed, perhaps in the 40-60 mph range, gentle to medium (street level) braking, then followed by a medium throttle applied rapidly and immediately after letting off the brake. I've experienced lag which can be about 1 full second. The car simply feels as if it is completely ignoring the throttle application (and it really is).

What can we do to get some resolution to the issue? I'm long off or my factory warranty and also had a terrible go around with BMW NA not taking care of an issue that occurred just under 50k miles but ended up at the dealer at around 50,030.

Can we revisit the issue with the NHTSA? Look for a lawyer to take a class action? Letter writing campaign?

The DCT continues to amaze me with its performance, character and adjustability but as I have said prior this lag issue is like the giant pimple on the nose of the supermodel. Well of course also not covered by this analogy is that this situation is borderline or perhaps even definitely dangerous.

Are others continuing to suffer from this lag?

Cheers.
Appreciate 0
      03-13-2013, 12:37 AM   #6
///Montreal3
Second Lieutenant
///Montreal3's Avatar
Canada
2
Rep
236
Posts

 
Drives: 2011 AW E92 M3
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: ///Montreal

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uiop View Post
Should've just gotten 6MT
You should've just gotten an M3.

Enjoy your carbon buildup.
__________________
BMW: 2011 AW/Black E92 M3 DCT - 2010 BSM/Tan E90 335i AT
Other: 2004 AW GDB STi 6spd - 1991 Nero/Nero 348tb 5spd
Appreciate 0
      03-13-2013, 12:51 AM   #7
Sandye90m3
Captain
Sandye90m3's Avatar
Canada
13
Rep
817
Posts

 
Drives: M3
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: SoCal

iTrader: (0)

What do you expect with the big turbo, it needs time to spool
__________________
M3.e90 JZB blacked out.coded.TurnerTestPipes
Appreciate 0
      03-13-2013, 03:23 AM   #8
SenorFunkyPants
Colonel
SenorFunkyPants's Avatar
United Kingdom
38
Rep
2,624
Posts

 
Drives: E92 DCT M3
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: UK

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post

Are others continuing to suffer from this lag?
Not at all...the DCT in my car still performs as brilliantly as ever (well since the last big software update).
I sympathise that yours doesn't perform as well as it should..it must be really annoying.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      03-13-2013, 08:08 AM   #9
Uiop
Private First Class
2
Rep
156
Posts

 
Drives: BMW
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Boston

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ///Montreal3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uiop View Post
Should've just gotten 6MT
You should've just gotten an M3.

Enjoy your carbon buildup.
It only came with 6MT, and thank you, I will.
Appreciate 0
      03-13-2013, 09:18 AM   #10
jeff4598
Lieutenant
7
Rep
454
Posts

 
Drives: 2009 e90 AW/BB lotsa Dinan
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: new jersey

iTrader: (0)

Reset on DCT

- I was advised on the forum that several runs over5,000 rpm followed by taking foot off throttle resets software and it seems to work for me.

-Are you in D5? If so the car is less likely to ignore slower speed attained during braking and downshift when throttle is applied.

- My car ABSOLUTLEY "learns" based on recent driving intensity.I think-lol-if not crazy ass placebo effect.

Sorry in advance if this is not helpful. My car HAS had terrible software issues and still on occasion exhibits loud, rougher sound along with VERY firm ride. Before the first update I had it was surging every time I came to a stop and applied brakes- still does that a little now and then- going to gett latest software and reinstall of Dinan software from private shop next week.
Appreciate 0
      03-13-2013, 10:25 AM   #11
leemik
Major
United_States
48
Rep
1,345
Posts

 
Drives: 2013 LRP M3 Coupe
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Quincy, MA

iTrader: (2)

Garage List
2013 BMW M3  [4.75]
my 2009 had dct lag issues for almost it's first whole year .. but by the 3rd software update/recall it was mostly resolved.. However, every now and then i did feel the shifts were are still not 100% as fast as it should occur...certainly not in the two second range though..

...and right after the third update my idrive started shutting off completely while driving.. but it only happened intermittantly.. I'm not sure if the update screwed me over or if there was just some fault with the idrive electronics as they could never reproduce the issue and no one else online seems to be having the same problem.

anyways good riddence to that car.. I'm in a 2013 with 6MT and latest idrive now...

--mike
__________________
Appreciate 0
      03-13-2013, 11:00 AM   #12
///M3THOD
Lieutenant Colonel
///M3THOD's Avatar
United_States
26
Rep
1,571
Posts

 
Drives: '14 F10 M5 CP
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: ATL/Buckhead

iTrader: (29)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radiation Joe View Post
I did.
Me too!
Appreciate 0
      03-13-2013, 11:31 AM   #13
jpuzas
New Member
0
Rep
11
Posts

 
Drives: 2011 Interlagos Blue/Black
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: United States

iTrader: (0)

Is this issue primarily related to the early 2008 and 2009 cars?
Appreciate 0
      03-13-2013, 11:46 AM   #14
swamp2
Lieutenant General
swamp2's Avatar
United_States
215
Rep
10,201
Posts

 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeff4598 View Post
- I was advised on the forum that several runs over5,000 rpm followed by taking foot off throttle resets software and it seems to work for me.
That sure seems like an odd reset behavior. I run the car to over 5000 rpm often but perhaps multiple times in sequence less often.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeff4598 View Post
-Are you in D5? If so the car is less likely to ignore slower speed attained during braking and downshift when throttle is applied.
Lag is typically observed in D4 for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeff4598 View Post
Sorry in advance if this is not helpful. My car HAS had terrible software issues and still on occasion exhibits loud, rougher sound along with VERY firm ride. Before the first update I had it was surging every time I came to a stop and applied brakes- still does that a little now and then- going to gett latest software and reinstall of Dinan software from private shop next week.
You car has intermittent stiffness adjustments made to the EDC system without you changing anything? I've never heard of anything even remotely similar to that.
Appreciate 0
      03-13-2013, 11:48 AM   #15
mdosu
Banned
No_Country
119
Rep
8,517
Posts

 
Drives: Double Vanos'd Civic-M3
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: San Francisco

iTrader: (6)

i thought these issues were resolved with the 3rd update?
Appreciate 0
      03-13-2013, 12:49 PM   #16
swartzentruber
Captain
United_States
9
Rep
608
Posts

 
Drives: 2011 E90 M3
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Chicago NW suburbs, IL

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Lag is typically observed in D4 for me.
I was going to ask what you considered lag, but reread your post, and found your pretty good description. I've noticed that somewhat too, though I've always attributed that to DCT wanting to not downshift aggressively to save gas, not lag. If you don't brake hard, it seems like it will stay in 7 very long, so once you hit the gas, it has to downshift a lot of gears. I've noticed if I brake more aggressively, it downshifts quicker, and I don't see the issue (but that's a workaround). I'm not a DCT expert, but would 7 and 3 share the same clutch, and if it has to do that shift, it's somewhat slow? I don't think I've ever had my software updated, so I have no experience to compare to.
__________________
2011 Jerez Black/Fox Red E90 M3 DCT, ZCP, ZCV, ZCW, ZP2, BMW Apps
2004 VW R32 (track car)
Appreciate 0
      03-13-2013, 02:19 PM   #17
M3takesNYC
Banned
8
Rep
426
Posts

 
Drives: m3
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: NYC

iTrader: (0)

Its too bad people are still having an issue as my DCt works so flawlessly and fast that I can't imagine faster performance from a transmission. WIth that said I drive mostly in manual mode which if you are experiencing the lag with D mode than the obvious fix is to drive in manual mode.

When I drive in D mode its always in D5 and to be realistic, its still an automatic mode and just like an auto tranny I expect there to be some delay between when I romp the pedal and when the thing engages. For me sometimes it will not downshift at all when I step on the pedal unless I go beyond the click-down point but that is uncommon.

I guess I adapt how I drive to a degree in D as when I want to accelerate, I step on the pedal a second before I know I want to go to kick down the gears, let off slightly and than go throttle when lower gear is engaged but this is different than lag.

Basically seems like some perform flawlessly and I can't image anything bettero ut there than this DCT.
Appreciate 0
      03-13-2013, 04:56 PM   #18
swamp2
Lieutenant General
swamp2's Avatar
United_States
215
Rep
10,201
Posts

 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by swartzentruber View Post
I've noticed that somewhat too, though I've always attributed that to DCT wanting to not downshift aggressively to save gas, not lag. If you don't brake hard, it seems like it will stay in 7 very long, so once you hit the gas, it has to downshift a lot of gears. I've noticed if I brake more aggressively, it downshifts quicker, and I don't see the issue (but that's a workaround). I'm not a DCT expert, but would 7 and 3 share the same clutch, and if it has to do that shift, it's somewhat slow? I don't think I've ever had my software updated, so I have no experience to compare to.
I think this is an interaction between the throttle and transmission control. Because the car feels like the throttle application is entirely ignored I can only conclude that it is and that it what we feel and call lag. If this can be attributed to soft braking and/or wanting to save fuel I don't know. One huge issue from my perspective is that the issues seems to be intermittent. I've certainly noticed that harder brakes causes much more aggressive downshifts as well and I agree 100% that that is a big (crappy) workaround. Odd gears do indeed share a single clutch. Although such shifts may have to be a bit slower there is not intrinsic reason a single clutch shift must be slow enough to be the cause of this duration of lag. Perhaps you go from a 30-50 ms shift to a 50-100 ms shift time. That isn't in itself long enough to be the sole cause of the lag.
Appreciate 0
      03-13-2013, 04:58 PM   #19
swamp2
Lieutenant General
swamp2's Avatar
United_States
215
Rep
10,201
Posts

 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by M3takesNYC View Post
When I drive in D mode its always in D5 and to be realistic, its still an automatic mode and just like an auto tranny I expect there to be some delay between when I romp the pedal and when the thing engages. For me sometimes it will not downshift at all when I step on the pedal unless I go beyond the click-down point but that is uncommon.

I guess I adapt how I drive to a degree in D as when I want to accelerate, I step on the pedal a second before I know I want to go to kick down the gears, let off slightly and than go throttle when lower gear is engaged but this is different than lag.
I hear what you are saying on all of the above and mostly agree. However, the problem is that this lag is not the default/regular behavior, it is somewhat random and then really catches you by surprise. It is also the length of the lag that is some troublesome. Right when you want to be accelerating.
Appreciate 0
      03-13-2013, 06:27 PM   #20
sensi09
Lieutenant Colonel
18
Rep
1,771
Posts

 
Drives: .
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: socal

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeff4598 View Post
Before the first update I had it was surging every time I came to a stop and applied brakes- still does that a little now and then- going to gett latest software and reinstall of Dinan software from private shop next week.
I get light surging from time to time coming to a stop. Always thought it was normal though
Appreciate 0
      03-13-2013, 08:02 PM   #21
M3AG
Second Lieutenant
Canada
3
Rep
254
Posts

 
Drives: 2013 E92 M3 ZCP, 6MT
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Gatineau

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uiop View Post
Should've just gotten 6MT
+1
Appreciate 0
      03-13-2013, 08:58 PM   #22
swamp2
Lieutenant General
swamp2's Avatar
United_States
215
Rep
10,201
Posts

 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sensi09 View Post
I get light surging from time to time coming to a stop. Always thought it was normal though
I am certain this is a distinct issue separate from the DCT lag issue.
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:49 PM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST