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      08-31-2007, 10:15 AM   #23
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Yes and no. Clearly, it will be a very different type of car. But, if it is available at the same time, it will catch the attention of potential M3 buyers like myself who are willing to spend up to $70k, and make them think twice.
I've been thinking about the GTR for 2 years now. Stayed up late at night to see the Tokyo Motor Show release to catch pics of it.
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      08-31-2007, 10:17 AM   #24
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I've been thinking about the GTR for 2 years now. Stayed up late at night to see the Tokyo Motor Show release to catch pics of it.
What do you think about the looks?
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      08-31-2007, 02:26 PM   #25
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I thought this article was quite positive about the E92 M3. The writers were just complaining about the fact that everytime they test drive the newest iteration of the M3, the car is progressively farther away from what the M3 was intended to be (their benchmark is the E30 M3 street racer).

BTW, this issue of Automobile also has an article about the upcoming C63. They are really high on this car - looks, handling, suspension, SPEED. They claim that the C63 will be the closest direct competitor to the M3 and may very well be the new king of the hill.
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      08-31-2007, 03:23 PM   #26
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I thought this article was quite positive about the E92 M3. The writers were just complaining about the fact that everytime they test drive the newest iteration of the M3, the car is progressively farther away from what the M3 was intended to be (their benchmark is the E30 M3 street racer).

BTW, this issue of Automobile also has an article about the upcoming C63. They are really high on this car - looks, handling, suspension, SPEED. They claim that the C63 will be the closest direct competitor to the M3 and may very well be the new king of the hill.
Automobile IMHO has always been pro-MB, much like some say C&D has always been pro-BMW. There was a comparison test last year between the S6, M5 and E63. The E63 won, and the M5 came in last. The very next article in the magazine was a multi-page spread on AMG.
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      08-31-2007, 07:42 PM   #27
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What do you think about the looks?
Hideous.
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      08-31-2007, 07:58 PM   #28
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I should have added new to rule out some possbilities. The C63 is the closest IMO but there again I should have added with MT or automated manual only to rule that one out. I guess the 335i vs. M3 debate will never end ... and 99% of folks will not place a new 335i in the same performance camp as the E92 M3. The GT-R isn't out (launch date?) and likely won't touch the E92 M3 on comfort/luxury/fit/finish. That leaves domestics which I've never been too keen on. Hmm, I guess I have backed myself into a small purchasing space. Do you have some other suggestions.
Good posts Swamp. I was just suprised about you opinion of fit and finish with Nissan. My experience has been different. I have found the Japanese makes to have better fit and finish, comfort, and luxury than the Germans. Lexus anyone? You should look at the 3 series paint jobs. I have never seen worse orange peel than on the 3 series, particularly in jet black. BMW use to set the standard with spot on steering and feel, now they set themselves apart with electronic gizmos that detract from the driving experience. Anyway, I am not enamored with the GT-R looks wise but I think it will kill the M3 in every performance category. Nissan has really taken it's time developing and testing this car on the Ring and across the world. It always seems to be accompanied by a the 997 TT, in testing photos, which tells you they have much high performance expectations of the car than the M3. Even the Lexus ISF has Brembo brakes and to think a base 3 series has better steering than our M is well....Just a suggestion, drive the Cayman S just one spirited drive is all it takes. May not be practical but when a car drives like that, practical loses some of it's flair. Needs DFI though. I wish I could make myself like the Vette, what a performance bargain. Just can't see myself in a Mercedes, maybe I can learn to get over it.
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      08-31-2007, 09:32 PM   #29
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I've been thinking about the GTR for 2 years now. Stayed up late at night to see the Tokyo Motor Show release to catch pics of it.
have they released any engine info yet? all ive heard so far is 400+ hp.....no actual details or anything yet tho...
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      08-31-2007, 09:37 PM   #30
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I have found the Japanese makes to have better fit and finish, comfort, and luxury than the Germans. Lexus anyone?
There is nothing that any japanese manufacturer makes that is even remotely close to an S65 Benz, let alone the Maybachs.

I'll give the japanese reliability and value, but that's it.
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      08-31-2007, 10:15 PM   #31
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What do you think about the looks?
Mixed. The taillights and exhaust tips are to-die-for. Obviously, the performance aspect is superb. The side profile is kinda iffy. I do like the front and the way it is laid out. Would like to see them change how the bumper interacts with the line that comes down from the headlights.
I have heard the rumor of 3 different variants. All with the same engine though. V-6 TT, 3.7 liter, 450+ hp, seriously enhanced version of their ATTESA all-wheel drive that was used on previous versions of the Skyline GT-R. Biggest difference between the models being extensive CF and a rumored dual-clutch tranny. Plus added luxury on them mid-tier level.
Was hoping it would be branded as an Infiniti, actually was at one point. Would have been nice to forgo the hit and miss Nissan dealership experience.
The car would obviously be much more focused than an M3. So, I have to way that. Further enhanced performance or more luxury/all-rounder. Still leaning with the M3.
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      08-31-2007, 10:30 PM   #32
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Mixed. The taillights and exhaust tips are to-die-for. Obviously, the performance aspect is superb. The side profile is kinda iffy. I do like the front and the way it is laid out. Would like to see them change how the bumper interacts with the line that comes down from the headlights.
I have heard the rumor of 3 different variants. All with the same engine though. V-6 TT, 3.7 liter, 450+ hp, seriously enhanced version of their ATTESA all-wheel drive that was used on previous versions of the Skyline GT-R. Biggest difference between the models being extensive CF and a rumored dual-clutch tranny. Plus added luxury on them mid-tier level.
Was hoping it would be branded as an Infiniti, actually was at one point. Would have been nice to forgo the hit and miss Nissan dealership experience.
The car would obviously be much more focused than an M3. So, I have to way that. Further enhanced performance or more luxury/all-rounder. Still leaning with the M3.
Agreed that the rear view looks pretty good. The front I can live with. The side is slightly over the top. It most likely will not have much of a back seat--but should be better than a 911 in that respect. I am surprised that they managed to keep the detailed specs mute until now if they are releasing in Japan in a few months.
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      08-31-2007, 10:41 PM   #33
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I think the GT-R looks awesome from the back. But, am I the only one who thinks it looks like an 80's kit car from all other angles. Half the cars around town look like that...a Pontiac Fiero with plastic bolt ons or a Mitsu with aftermarket stuff glued to it....maybe it's just me. That was my first impression and second etc...

but admittedly the rear view is cool.
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      08-31-2007, 10:53 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epacy View Post
Mixed. The taillights and exhaust tips are to-die-for. Obviously, the performance aspect is superb. The side profile is kinda iffy. I do like the front and the way it is laid out. Would like to see them change how the bumper interacts with the line that comes down from the headlights.
I have heard the rumor of 3 different variants. All with the same engine though. V-6 TT, 3.7 liter, 450+ hp, seriously enhanced version of their ATTESA all-wheel drive that was used on previous versions of the Skyline GT-R. Biggest difference between the models being extensive CF and a rumored dual-clutch tranny. Plus added luxury on them mid-tier level.
Was hoping it would be branded as an Infiniti, actually was at one point. Would have been nice to forgo the hit and miss Nissan dealership experience.
The car would obviously be much more focused than an M3. So, I have to way that. Further enhanced performance or more luxury/all-rounder. Still leaning with the M3.
Nice post. The latest rumor I heard was an Infiniti version is being considered.
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      08-31-2007, 11:20 PM   #35
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I am surprised that they managed to keep the detailed specs mute until now if they are releasing in Japan in a few months.
+1. I have read stories about the level of secrecy Ghosen, Nissan VP, has gone to to keep the wraps on this thing.
Also, heard awhile back they had Lotus help on tuning the chassis. This was pretty much fact.
From what I have seen, Nissan has put the full-court-press on making sure the new GT-R is the biz.
Initial concept unveiling was Oct 01. They have definately taken their time. 80-90% production version was shown in Oct 05.
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      08-31-2007, 11:30 PM   #36
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Good posts Swamp. I was just suprised about you opinion of fit and finish with Nissan. My experience has been different. I have found the Japanese makes to have better fit and finish, comfort, and luxury than the Germans. Lexus anyone? You should look at the 3 series paint jobs. I have never seen worse orange peel than on the 3 series, particularly in jet black. BMW use to set the standard with spot on steering and feel, now they set themselves apart with electronic gizmos that detract from the driving experience. Anyway, I am not enamored with the GT-R looks wise but I think it will kill the M3 in every performance category. Nissan has really taken it's time developing and testing this car on the Ring and across the world. It always seems to be accompanied by a the 997 TT, in testing photos, which tells you they have much high performance expectations of the car than the M3. Even the Lexus ISF has Brembo brakes and to think a base 3 series has better steering than our M is well....Just a suggestion, drive the Cayman S just one spirited drive is all it takes. May not be practical but when a car drives like that, practical loses some of it's flair. Needs DFI though. I wish I could make myself like the Vette, what a performance bargain. Just can't see myself in a Mercedes, maybe I can learn to get over it.
I will agree that some Japanese makes have very good quality maybe even matching quality to BMW.

I will disagree with you that BMW has had "spot on steering" in the past as both the E46 M3 and E36 M3 have suffered from what journalists call numb or light steering. Although must that drive them, love them.

The GTR in my opinion is a step above the M3 in both performance and price. I would suspect the GTR will come in about the same price as a standard 997 C2. Which is great because you get 997TT performance at C2 prices. It will no doubt be a winner if people are willing to shell out 70-80K for a Nissan.

I also dont see myself in a vette or MB. And the Cayman, although great, is too small.

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      09-01-2007, 07:06 AM   #37
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My understanding is that GTR will be produced in relatively low volumes. This car has a pretty strong fan base around the world. I wouldn't be surprised if this edition ends up having some kind of a cult following, with prices increasing after production is stopped and all that (look at the Supra). I realize that's not a reason to buy the car or anything, but it does seem to have a strange aura. My point is such Japanese cars most likely do not appeal to the crowd who like German cars in general, but they do have their appeal, and I wouldn't be quick to write it off as not having top notch build quality and finish (it may, but the car will probably make up for it in other respects).
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      09-01-2007, 03:30 PM   #38
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Automobile IMHO has always been pro-MB, much like some say C&D has always been pro-BMW. There was a comparison test last year between the S6, M5 and E63. The E63 won, and the M5 came in last. The very next article in the magazine was a multi-page spread on AMG.
Not surprised. Each mag has its biases I guess. The only way to determine what's best is to test drive the cars yourself.
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      09-02-2007, 12:34 AM   #39
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I will disagree with you that BMW has had "spot on steering" in the past as both the E46 M3 and E36 M3 have suffered from what journalists call numb or light steering. Although must that drive them, love them.



Jason

Jason, I have to disagree with your disagreement about the E36 M3's steering. There have been articles about it having the best steering of any car on the road (Road and Track 1998 technical article called "WHy does the BMW M3 steer so well?"). It has perfect road feel and weighting.

WHen I drove my buddies new E46 M3 in 2001 it was much lighter and had a lot less feel than the E36. Not sure if they ever changed this during its production run.

Just defending my old girl! (98 M3 sedan).
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      09-02-2007, 12:48 PM   #40
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and these being production cars, and not test vehicles, means that bmw decided against "fixing" the steering. it's their final product. hmm.

- esquire
I believe all the cars tested in Spain were pre production cars, at least I hope so. Steved said there was some improvement with the 6mt in the production car he tested in England, but still had concerns about steering feel. I Want to buy the M3 but if it doesn't steer at least as good as a 3 series, forget it. Can't fix numb steering with mods. The M3 is starting to look more like an amercian muscle car, great motor and numb steering. To spend 70k on a sports car that doesn't steer as well as an Accord family hauler is not good. I still have hope that BMW is not so arrogant as to discount these reviews, if they do it will be at their own peril. They responded to the criticism of the light steering in the 3 series about 6 years ago, now they need to step it up and tweak the steering and brakes on the U.S. speced car before their release next Spring. If BMW wants to make a fix bad einough they can still do it. I would be more than willing to wait even if it took a delay to get it right.
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      09-02-2007, 06:58 PM   #41
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I think you're going a bit overboard with your criticism of the M3 steering. Especially considering you haven't driven one. Accord? American muscle car? It's been said that it is numb near center, but when you put load onto the front end, the steering stiffens up as it should. I haven't heard complaints about the suspension or it's actual performance/grip.

This isn't Cadillac steering we're talking about.
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      09-03-2007, 09:54 AM   #42
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I think you're going a bit overboard with your criticism of the M3 steering. Especially considering you haven't driven one. Accord? American muscle car? It's been said that it is numb near center, but when you put load onto the front end, the steering stiffens up as it should. I haven't heard complaints about the suspension or it's actual performance/grip.

This isn't Cadillac steering we're talking about.
Nice to see post you something of substance. I don't know, the new Cadilac CTS is getting some good reviews and there are rumors out there that the V version may get anywhere from 500-600hp of Corvette muscle dropped under the hood. They are doing extensive testing of this car on the Ring. The C63 also appears from reports to have vastly improved it's steering and handling prowess. It just doesn't make sense why M appears to have dropped the ball in the all important area of steering feel. Just reading the reveiws of those who have tested the car including Steved who is a hardcore M fan. Doesn't concern ya bit, huh? Steering feel only of minor importance to you? Ever driven a Cayman?
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      09-03-2007, 02:01 PM   #43
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Hmmm. Maybe I'd like to drive it myself instead of calling for a recall before it's even hit the streets.

As for the Cadillac, weren't you just complaining about BMW going the way of American Muscle, yet you're willing to praise the CTS-V because they're dropping a big ol' pushrod engine in it? Neat.

We'll see how the C63, RS4, and CTS-V hold up when there are some official competitions.

No, I've never driven a Cayman, but I've driven an E46 M3. There were these same complaints by auto journalists about the steering on the E46, but I never had any complaints. If you expected Cayman steering feel from the M3, I think your expectations were a little bit high when even Porsche's higher-end models can't match that.

Have you ever driven an E92 M3?

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      09-03-2007, 02:12 PM   #44
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What is wrong with you guys!

This is a positive article that I think really gets to the heart of the issue in the first couple paragraphs. They admit that with every new generation we all hope we will get closer to what the E30 M was. Yet, it appears we get further away everytime. Its hard for a car to live up to that hype but they admit that each new generation is the best in the class. They even go onto to say that the new M3 has stolen the crown from the RS4!

The steering and brakes is an ongoing issue. You cant be on this site and love the E36 M3 or E46 M3 and not understand that this is always a point of dispute with the M3. Get over it... I can post links to articles that talk about what was said about the steering of the E46 M3.

Bottom line, this is a good and positive review with some good insight into the emotions of the M3 cult following.

Jason
I agree that this is a somewhat positive article about the new M3, even though it talks up its obvious weaknesses - brakes and steering. The writers prefer the new M3 over the RS4 - but they also warn of the pending intro of the C63 being something that BMW should worry about - big time!!!!
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