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      02-15-2013, 12:44 AM   #45
aus
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Yeah, you know that going into it, but you REALLY don't know until you're there. At that time, if you wanted to be a surgeon, almost all the good programs were like that. It was so ridiculous though. In order to have a weekend off, you would switch weekends with your fellow intern. So when it was your weekend, you would start work on Friday and not leave the hospital until Monday night. Absolutely insane. Plus most of the attendings were Nazis in their former lives.

I told my wife I should write a book about residency and her reply was, "The general public is not ready for something like that."

In terms of going into medicine again? Sure why not. There's still nothing like taking the knife to the skin. I love being able to help people with a skill that took years and thousands of hours to hone Currently, my hours are pretty good and my pay is still very good. Not to sound too materialistic, but it's nice having a Ferrari (you car guys understand). Kind of like a pat on the back.
You seem to be about the same age as me and back then, the only G-surg programs that were every other that I knew about was at Duke and Hopkins, but that was hear-say from the folks going into it at the time.
You're also the few who have a Ferrari, at least in Cali. There's a neurosurg where I work who has a few nice cars, but otherwise not many are driving Ferraris in Cali unless they have no kids or a small house.

.
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      02-15-2013, 12:44 AM   #46
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      02-15-2013, 01:03 AM   #47
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I drove little putt-putt-mobiles (used, cheap boring-mobiles). It hurt to cut my first check for a $3,500 used car, that represented a lot for me at the time.

Didn't buy a nice car until a few years into practice (and didn't buy an M until I was done with the mortgage). I loved cars, so waiting was hard. But for me, I didn't want to "play now" and end up having to "keep paying for it" later.

EDIT: The memory of driving cars that struggled to merge onto the highway with no air con in the summer... makes me smile even more when I press the gas to accelerate my M....
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      02-15-2013, 01:37 AM   #48
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You seem to be about the same age as me and back then, the only G-surg programs that were every other that I knew about was at Duke and Hopkins, but that was hear-say from the folks going into it at the time.
You're also the few who have a Ferrari, at least in Cali. There's a neurosurg where I work who has a few nice cars, but otherwise not many are driving Ferraris in Cali unless they have no kids or a small house.

.
I'm ortho. Trained at Jackson Memorial in Miami. A lot of gen surg internship programs were every other back then- UVA, UCLA, Charity, etc I was so happy to hear when they changed the work conditions. There was one rotation that wasn't every other- ER. That was fun. 3 night shifts. Have 24 hrs off and then 2 day shifts. 24 hrs off and then back to nights.

I'm not in Cali- Seattle. We all pick our poisons. I do live in a small house and not on the water. Bought it right after fellowship, so my mortgage is small. Gives me the freedom for a lot more things
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      02-15-2013, 02:30 AM   #49
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Most docs in a decent private practice can afford 2-3 k month on a car if they wish. It Just depends on the size of the house and if you are supporting a family or not.

Tax deductions help and in California it can lower tax brackets

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      02-15-2013, 07:01 AM   #50
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Most docs in a decent private practice can afford 2-3 k month on a car if they wish. It Just depends on the size of the house and if you are supporting a family or not.

Tax deductions help and in California it can lower tax brackets

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2 to 3K a month? I took a 50k loan over 4 years and it is 1200 a month over 4 years.
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      02-15-2013, 07:09 AM   #51
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To me it sounds like you think you might like to be an anesthesiologist. At this point, you probably don't understand the field well enough to say you "know". You are not being honest with yourself, if you end up in medical school, you will probably figure out what you want to do about year 3, maybe 4.

As a medical student you may be able to enjoy your car, if you are one of those lucky few who don't need to study all the time. As a resident, your car will spend more time in the hospital ramp than anywhere else.

IMO, if you need to ask....
PS, I think you could find 100 better jobs than EMS if you are serious about getting experience for medical school. In fact I would encourage you to do something else, not to bash EMS, but the experience you would get would be better suited for nursing. Do an online search, working in a lab, a medical office, a hospital floor, as an anesthesia tech....and a million more would better serve you. You want experience medicine and rub elbows with physicians.
Just my .02.

So in summary.... M3-no
EMS- you could do much better for experience.
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      02-15-2013, 07:30 AM   #52
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A lot of the advice given is relatively consistent with what I would suggest. But if you'd like to PM me, I'd be more than happy to chat.
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      02-15-2013, 09:18 AM   #53
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I said that anesthesiology has gained my interest as of now. I read that medical students change their minds on the profession they wanted to be after going through the different rotations. I accept the fact that I may not be an anesthesiologist, maybe another kind of physician. I need something to work towards. Again, I'll see what I like in medical school.
I changed my mind a few times during med school. Started out thinking I wanted to do Ortho. Then thought about Medicine. Got a whiff of urology during my 2nd year, and thought it was unique and interesting....and thankfully matched into a good urology program.

Residency itself is hit and miss. I was very "motivated" early on, but am already losing that due to the inefficiencies all around me which are part of the medical "system", and also part of the specific place I work. Our attendings are much more interested in seeing "x" amount of patients instead of teaching, so we're left teaching ourselves "textbook" urology. We get the real-world stuff through osmosis, but the boards matter, ya know

I think everyone's experiences are different, and it also depends on the specialty you choose.

The anesthesia residents where I'm at are some of the nicest, happiest people in the hospital. It makes me wonder sometimes about my choice, to be honest....

The plastics residents are the grumpiest, and the general surgery residents are a close second. Just the nature of their work....this is a generalization, by the way...obviously not all are like this.

You will figure out what you want to do. It will "click" in med school once you get exposure.
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      02-15-2013, 09:45 AM   #54
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I wouldn't go in to a program like medicine "knowing" what I wanted to do for the rest of my life. My brother did that. He's in his second year of a radiology residency and absolutely hates it. Wishes he never went to med school and did something else instead.

Myself, I'm in my second year of dental school in Minnesota. I bought a new 328xi because I needed a new car and that's what I had my heart set on. At the end of the day it was roughly the same money as a nice Honda accord, ford fusion, Toyota Camry. Traded in my old car that was becoming too unreliable and I came out pretty good. With family help I'm not in any debt (paid for the car myself though).

I could've gotten a new M3, but it would've been a very stupid decision IMO. I want one really badly, but I've decided that I won't be buying an M car until my 30th birthday in 2019. When I graduate in 2015 I'm expecting to get a good paying associateship in a practice that I intend on buying out.

My advice, buy a new car only if you need it. Even then, pay cash so you don't have a car payment while you're in school. If it has to be a bimmer, consider something other than an M3. Something that everybody overlooks is happiness. If having a nice car will make you happy, then get it. There are days when getting into a nice car after spending 12 hours at school with my heated seats, heated steering wheel, etc. is really nice and makes the day not quite as bad.
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      02-15-2013, 10:00 AM   #55
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I'm aware that ems is not the same environment I will be working in therefore some of you might say its not the best preparation. Although I have already spent a bit over 300 volunteer hours back in high school on the surgical floor of a local hospital. So I have been exposed to working with physicians, nurses, patients, and everything in between. These 300 hours are not a lot at all relative to everyone else here who have it as their job. However I felt it was a good first step In knowing this is what I want to do. If anything that experience made me want it even more. I also figured that despite ems environment, the classes and skills such as thinking on your feet to save a life were similar to that of a doctor. Seeing as how I want to be either a surgeon or an ER physician
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      02-15-2013, 10:52 AM   #56
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[quote=Thebigbus;13484810]The anesthesia residents where I'm at are some of the nicest, happiest people in the hospital. It makes me wonder sometimes about my choice, to be honest....

The plastics residents are the grumpiest, and the general surgery residents are a close second. Just the nature of their work....this is a generalization, by the way...obviously not all are like this.
[quote]

One of my good friends is a gas man. Likes his job, but hates his schedule. Never really know when you're going to end and still taking lots of night stuff. He told me, "You know in residency, anesthesia always had good hours. We would be in a case for 8 hrs and I would get relieved to go home. I always looked at the surgeons and thought, 'poor saps'. Now the tables are turned, the surgeons are going home and I'm still giving gas."

Out in the real world, I think the happiest practitioners are ortho, ENT, derm, and plastics. My wife was OB-GYN and quit due to the malpractice costs and the cuts in pay.
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      02-15-2013, 11:03 AM   #57
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One of my good friends is a gas man. Likes his job, but hates his schedule. Never really know when you're going to end and still taking lots of night stuff. He told me, "You know in residency, anesthesia always had good hours. We would be in a case for 8 hrs and I would get relieved to go home. I always looked at the surgeons and thought, 'poor saps'. Now the tables are turned, the surgeons are going home and I'm still giving gas."

Out in the real world, I think the happiest practitioners are ortho, ENT, derm, and plastics. My wife was OB-GYN and quit due to the malpractice costs and the cuts in pay.
Haha, you just never know. I think for me, things will be much better in the "real" world. I can't stand not being able to direct my schedule now...and I'm constantly at the mercy of our attendings, who never seem to want to go home and see their families. It's bizarre. I'm all for hard work, but there is a line in the sand for me. I have way too many other things I want to accomplish in life in addition to being a good urologist

I've heard that song and dance before about OB! Can't imagine being in that field. I'm currently on a Uro-Gyn rotation, and that is the only way I could see being in that field...they have pretty chill lives, and easy patients. Of course, you do the same exact surgeries day in and day out, and I would get bored way too quickly with prolapse repairs and anti-incontinence surgeries...LoL

I think the ER guys have it pretty good as far as hours, but I cannot IMAGINE doing what they actually do. The frustration levels have to be immense with the crap they deal with.
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      02-15-2013, 11:33 AM   #58
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OP, despite what the majority of responders have said, I respectfully disagree.

Life comes once, ANYTHING could happen to you. Enjoy driving an amazing car asap.

Don't err on the side of caution, planning to win the long game, (ie- comfortably payoff the mortgage, have $$ for a huge wedding, 2.5 kids to make it to affluent schools, furnish home comfortably, etc) and never seize the chance to have a sweet ride while young enough to really enjoy it.

Coming out of pharmacy school (which is now 6 years+ @ 35-45k a year at an average university) I saved a year or two and got a mortgage and a m3. You can't take money with you when its over.

I know before anyone says it, yes pharmacy pays better out of the gate, but MD,DDS, surgeons and other specialties completely DESTROY our 150ishk/year after a few years of practice.

GO FOR IT OP!
850-900ish a month for an m3 lease!
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      02-15-2013, 11:49 AM   #59
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With the rapid corporatization of medicine we are becoming employees and the salaries will just go down and down. I would not go in to this field expecting to EVER be able to drive an M3. In most parts of the world docs are MIDDLE class and make the equivalent of $60-100,000 per year- America will be there when you are done with your training IMO. I am a psychiatrist. When I started practice in 1989, Medicare allowed up to $129 for a 45 minute office visit. Now it is ~$103 and there is a 23% cut being held over our heads. And this is just the start of the aging of the baby boom- it is clear that they expect us to care for twice as many people for the same total $. Since I am self employed I pay double payroll taxes and $4,500 dollars per MONTH for my family's health insurance. Do the math.
THIS is the truth. I was involved with a patient-physician alliance to try to fight the illegal corporate takeover, but it died due to lack of interest by patients. No one seems to care that their hospital is "hiring" doctors merely to force self-referrals so that they can continue to charge 10-20 times what other providers charge for the same services.

The government is not only allowing, but is encouraging these takeovers because large corporations have more complex information systems. The government is interested in having unrestricted access to patient information and big groups with big electronic health records fit the bill the best. Unfortunately, allowing corporations to take over medicine will just lead to lower pay for the "providers" and higher costs for the "consumers".

I graduated in '93 and am still paying off loans. I have received cuts to reimbursement EVERY year since, with most insurers asking for at least 20% cuts this year. Somehow my rent ALWAYS increases as do staff costs-and this will be driven up even more with the current push to increase "minimum wage to get people out of poverty". If the guy flipping burgers at McDonald's who didn't finish middle school gets $9 and hour, imagine what the receptionist/medical assistants will want (already paying over $15 and hour starting for the least skilled jobs in the office).

Don't worry about those who say that your judgement is questionable. ANYONE who goes into medical school at this time has very questionable judgement. You'll be fine-as long as you go in assuming that you'll work harder every year and make less for doing so.

To those who state that any MD makes far more than their "$150k", that only applies for certain specialties these days. Primary care/psychiatry will be lucky to hit the "average" salary around $120k. This is inflated by those who overcharge for the 5 minutes they spend, billing as if they spent 30 minutes on a "complex" case. Don't assume that medical school will translate to hundreds of thousands of dollars unless you go into spine surgery or something similar.
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      02-15-2013, 11:52 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by heartcolorgrey View Post
OP, despite what the majority of responders have said, I respectfully disagree.

Life comes once, ANYTHING could happen to you. Enjoy driving an amazing car asap.

Don't err on the side of caution, planning to win the long game, (ie- comfortably payoff the mortgage, have $$ for a huge wedding, 2.5 kids to make it to affluent schools, furnish home comfortably, etc) and never seize the chance to have a sweet ride while young enough to really enjoy it.

Coming out of pharmacy school (which is now 6 years+ @ 35-45k a year at an average university) I saved a year or two and got a mortgage and a m3. You can't take money with you when its over.

I know before anyone says it, yes pharmacy pays better out of the gate, but MD,DDS, surgeons and other specialties completely DESTROY our 150ishk/year after a few years of practice.

GO FOR IT OP!
850-900ish a month for an m3 lease!
While I agree with your sentiment that life is too short to drive a Civic, you are misled as to the earning capacity of physicians. General surgeons, at least here in CA, are lucky to make $150k, primary care is challenged to bring in even $100k. Even the busy orthopedists I know are making only about $250k unless they own their own MRI and surgery center.

ALL of the money in healthcare is going to CEOs and their executives, whether it be the insurance companies or the hospitals themselves.
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      02-15-2013, 01:29 PM   #61
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While I agree with your sentiment that life is too short to drive a Civic, you are misled as to the earning capacity of physicians. General surgeons, at least here in CA, are lucky to make $150k, primary care is challenged to bring in even $100k. Even the busy orthopedists I know are making only about $250k unless they own their own MRI and surgery center.

ALL of the money in healthcare is going to CEOs and their executives, whether it be the insurance companies or the hospitals themselves.
Time for some collective bargaining. Those numbers are terrible and much worse than what we see in the south.
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      02-15-2013, 01:31 PM   #62
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I would not advise it unless you can fully pay it off prior to start of school and save up for maintenance and insurance (face it everyone one pays for gas whether you drive a bmw or toyota). So make your decision, but remember not to regret it down the road, because I def don't.
This was the point I was trying to make earlier. If I buy a used one with all cash up front and only need to spend money on gas, maintenance, and insurance like a regular car, how much more am i really looking at? Im obligated to spend that money with a shitty toyota anyways. I know it will add up but so will any other car. How much maintenance does something like a used 55,000 mile M3 need for a daily driver?
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      02-15-2013, 05:39 PM   #63
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OP, despite what the majority of responders have said, I respectfully disagree.

Life comes once, ANYTHING could happen to you. Enjoy driving an amazing car asap.

Don't err on the side of caution, planning to win the long game, (ie- comfortably payoff the mortgage, have $$ for a huge wedding, 2.5 kids to make it to affluent schools, furnish home comfortably, etc) and never seize the chance to have a sweet ride while young enough to really enjoy it.

Coming out of pharmacy school (which is now 6 years+ @ 35-45k a year at an average university) I saved a year or two and got a mortgage and a m3. You can't take money with you when its over.

I know before anyone says it, yes pharmacy pays better out of the gate, but MD,DDS, surgeons and other specialties completely DESTROY our 150ishk/year after a few years of practice.

GO FOR IT OP!
850-900ish a month for an m3 lease!
Easy for you to say when its not your money.
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      02-15-2013, 05:40 PM   #64
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[quote=HighandDry;13485279][quote=Thebigbus;13484810]The anesthesia residents where I'm at are some of the nicest, happiest people in the hospital. It makes me wonder sometimes about my choice, to be honest....

The plastics residents are the grumpiest, and the general surgery residents are a close second. Just the nature of their work....this is a generalization, by the way...obviously not all are like this.
Quote:

One of my good friends is a gas man. Likes his job, but hates his schedule. Never really know when you're going to end and still taking lots of night stuff. He told me, "You know in residency, anesthesia always had good hours. We would be in a case for 8 hrs and I would get relieved to go home. I always looked at the surgeons and thought, 'poor saps'. Now the tables are turned, the surgeons are going home and I'm still giving gas."

Out in the real world, I think the happiest practitioners are ortho, ENT, derm, and plastics. My wife was OB-GYN and quit due to the malpractice costs and the cuts in pay.
I think most folks in radiology are quite happy. I am.
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      02-15-2013, 06:54 PM   #65
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While I agree with your sentiment that life is too short to drive a Civic, you are misled as to the earning capacity of physicians. General surgeons, at least here in CA, are lucky to make $150k, primary care is challenged to bring in even $100k. Even the busy orthopedists I know are making only about $250k unless they own their own MRI and surgery center.

ALL of the money in healthcare is going to CEOs and their executives, whether it be the insurance companies or the hospitals themselves.
Those numbers are a little low for SoCal, but you have to work HARD to make more than that. That includes seen patients in the hospitals, which means working weekends and getting called at night.
People have to wonder who's better off. The Primary doc who makes $150k a year working 60 hours a week and getting calls from the ER in the middle of the night. He/she has had to study their ass off to get into Medschool- college wasn't nearly as fun as it could have been. Then pay $60,000/yr for medschool. Or the Pharmacist who makes $150k/yr working 40-50 hours a week and never gets called when they're off. Or the nurse who makes $100k/year who only has to do 2 years of JC, then 4 yrs of nursing school and works 3.5 to 4 twelve hour shifts a week and starts making money at age 24?

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Time for some collective bargaining. Those numbers are terrible and much worse than what we see in the south.
It's not allowed. We'll get sued for anti-trust!!! That's how screwed we are.

.
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Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."
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      02-15-2013, 07:13 PM   #66
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Those numbers are a little low for SoCal, but you have to work HARD to make more than that. That includes seen patients in the hospitals, which means working weekends and getting called at night.
People have to wonder who's better off. The Primary doc who makes $150k a year working 60 hours a week and getting calls from the ER in the middle of the night. He/she has had to study their ass off to get into Medschool- college wasn't nearly as fun as it could have been. Then pay $60,000/yr for medschool. Or the Pharmacist who makes $150k/yr working 40-50 hours a week and never gets called when they're off. Or the nurse who makes $100k/year who only has to do 2 years of JC, then 4 yrs of nursing school and works 3.5 to 4 twelve hour shifts a week and starts making money at age 24?



It's not allowed. We'll get sued for anti-trust!!! That's how screwed we are.

.
The collective bargaining bit was tongue in cheek, but I wonder how long it can keep up before something has to change.

Alot of this depends on where you live, not to mention volume and efficiency. I know PCPs who have high volume; work 60ish hours weeks and do VERY well. These are practices that have passive revenue streams, ancillaries, physician extenders, etc. Without a business mind, it's impossible to do well nowadays.
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