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      02-12-2013, 04:01 AM   #45
scorcherjf
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The problem with looking at a statistic like homicides per firearm is the issue of people with multiple firearms. Most people I know with guns own more than one so this biases the figure downwards lessening the severity. For example if you compared two hypothetical countries each with only 2 people. Country 1 has 2 guns owned by one person and murders the other person in the country that would equate to 1 homicide per 2 guns or 0.5 homicides per gun. Country 2 has 1 gun owned by one person and murders the other person in their country which equates to 1 murder per firearm. Both countries experienced the same murder rate per capita but one has half the rate of homicides per firearm because of multiple firearm ownership. You can't just look at the firearm because someone has to use one to murder someone else but only one - you can't murder someone with more than one gun... at least statistically lol.

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Originally Posted by MP0WER View Post
i believe you may be missing his point. Of the UK, Australia, Switzerland and Mexico; the only one close to having the same social economic deficiencies as the US, resulting in poverty and violence is mexico.

Also, it should be noted, since most who are for gun control believe less guns will result in less gun deaths. When you compare gun homicides to the number of guns in countries, the US has about 38 other countries ahead of it.

If guns are the problem and more guns equal more of a problem then looking at the data in this fashion is applicable. For the most part Homicides per gun coincides with homicides per 100,000 residents. There are some anomalies though. Take Columbia with 51.77 firearm homicides per 100k. They only have 5900 guns per 100k which totals .008775 firearm homicides per gun. Drop to Mexico with 9.88 firearm homicides per 100k. They only have 15,000 guns per 100k which totals .000659 firearm homicides per gun. Australia has the same number of guns per 100k as Mexico, but only have .44 firearm homicides per 100k which gives them only .000029 firearm homicides per gun. The US has 4.14 firearm homicides per 100k but with 88000 guns per 100k that puts us at .000047 firearm homicides per gun. As a side note, the place largely regarded to be the safest place to live in regards to gun violence, Japan only has .02 firearm homicides per 100k. Yet with only 600 guns per 100k that gives them .000033 firearm homicides per gun. Only 5 spots lower than the US.

This bit of data seems to be excluded in all gun homicide comparisons. But when you include it, and you must if your argument is more guns equal more deaths, it paints a pretty different story. Of the 38 countries that rank above the US in Homicides per gun, 23 of them have a lower homicide per 100k figure than the US.

Another interesting fact about homicides per gun is that the 22 countries ranked lower than the US on average represent 20,000 guns per 100k while the 38 countries ranked higher than the US on average only have 10,000 guns per 100k.


I'm not saying that some logical, meaningful changes won't help us get our numbers down. However, the facts seem to contradict the per capita myth that more guns = more gun homicides. And no one seems to care about the facts.
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      02-12-2013, 01:51 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scorcherjf View Post
The problem with looking at a statistic like homicides per firearm is the issue of people with multiple firearms. Most people I know with guns own more than one so this biases the figure downwards lessening the severity. For example if you compared two hypothetical countries each with only 2 people. Country 1 has 2 guns owned by one person and murders the other person in the country that would equate to 1 homicide per 2 guns or 0.5 homicides per gun. Country 2 has 1 gun owned by one person and murders the other person in their country which equates to 1 murder per firearm. Both countries experienced the same murder rate per capita but one has half the rate of homicides per firearm because of multiple firearm ownership. You can't just look at the firearm because someone has to use one to murder someone else but only one - you can't murder someone with more than one gun... at least statistically lol.
You are correct. But the point is that there is a wide spread myth that more guns = more deaths. This statistical format proves that isn't always true.

Don't forget that your example goes both ways. A country has 10 people, 1 person owns 1 gun and they murder all 9 people. Now you have 9 homicides per 1 gun. B country has 10 people, 1 person owns 5 guns. He murders 5 people. Now you have a 1 to 1 ratio again. C country has 10 people, 5 of them have 1 gun each. 1 of them intends on murdering 5 people but only murders 1 because the other 4 with guns stopped his murderous spree.
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      02-12-2013, 04:16 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Echo M3 View Post
I don't agree with that interpretation. I think what it shows is that there are more violent crimes in the UK, but they result in far fewer deaths (per event and overall). The question is, which do you prefer?
It's not so simple. Sadly for us, for a variety of reasons, the UK has ALWAYS had a lower homicide rate, even before they had ANY gun control. Their rate of gun crime INCREASED after their latest round of gun controls. Ours has decreased with the lapse of the AWB and with more liberal concealed carry laws.

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Having said all this, you raise a great point. Poverty and oppression beget crime and violence. Vermont has some of the least restrictive gun laws in the country, and has a murder rate of 1.3 per 100,000, which is on par with countries like the UK. Which is about 1/4th of the rate in a state like California, which has far more restrictive laws.

What this means is that gun reform alone is not the solution.
Great point. Not a lot of gang violence in Vermont, and tons of it in CA. That said, if you're not a criminal your level of safety is probably fairly similar in either state.
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      02-12-2013, 04:17 PM   #48
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Yep, Mexico is worse. But is that really the level that you want to measure yourself against as a nation?
So, what you're saying is that gun control really isn't that important compared to all the other factors.
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      02-12-2013, 04:25 PM   #49
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i'd rather get shot to death than hacked to death.

takes a while for you to bleed out and die from chunks of your body being sliced....
Yeah - with being shot at I can at least shoot back. I am not in the habit of carrying a sword around, nor do I think I will start anytime soon.
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      02-22-2013, 11:31 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by kingofthedemo View Post
Wow, it sounds like the gun ban really does prevent violence in the UK!


link: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...al-London.html
"He was rushed to hospital where he died from his wounds, becoming the first teenager to be killed in London this year."lol...it seams the gun ban does prevent violence...only one teenage killed so far.....
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      02-23-2013, 04:50 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by GabeS View Post
...it seams the gun ban does prevent violence...only one teenage killed so far.....
Stronger seams on the victim's coat may have prevented this tragedy.
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      02-23-2013, 10:07 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by GabeS View Post
...it seams the gun ban does prevent violence...only one teenage killed so far.....
*seems

There were two more last weekend (one of which was shot). Not US #'s by any means, but your point is false. Of the 26 murders so far in London this year, the method of choice was stabbing followed by beating.
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      02-23-2013, 12:50 PM   #53
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lol at everyone completely missing the point.
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