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      02-08-2013, 11:57 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NELSON.MLGB View Post
I only use Moly oil for my M, Redline to me is a cheap brand. German oil for German which makes the most sense. In terms of oil type, 10w60 is the best and the only oil being used for S65. Sure you can run 4w50 or watever cheap oil, but the life of ur S65 will be shorter than those who use the right one. Moe, I suggest dat you use the Castrol one for now since you are still under warranty, cuz if anything happen to ur motor, Calgary BMW will blame on the Moly oil that you used for your engine.
I don't see Redline as a cheap brand. They have been building synthetic oils for racing and street use for a long time. The chemists that work there are car enthusiasts and have a drive to make the best products for their cars. Also, their oil costs more than most oil that you normally buy.

If you go to the motor oil forums, Redline is usually one of the top performers. They use a 100% Group V Ester formulation which is a higher grade base stock than that found in Castrol 10w60 and any commercial grade motor oil.
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      02-08-2013, 05:12 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gatorfast View Post
But why would you? For the small difference in price why not just run the factory recommended oil? Seems like there is absolutely no benefit to using some other brand and/or weight other than maybe saving a few bucks.
You obviously haven't priced Redline oils.
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      02-08-2013, 05:22 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Radiation Joe View Post
You obviously haven't priced Redline oils.
That wasnt my point. I don't know the price of redline but even at half the price of Castrol its still not a material amount. Even if it was free - what makes it better than oem Castrol?
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      02-08-2013, 05:43 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Radiation Joe View Post
You obviously haven't priced Redline oils.
So besides brand loyalty and cost..still waiting on the advantages of non-OEM..specifically running weights other than the recommended 10w-60
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      02-08-2013, 06:21 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Radiation Joe View Post
You obviously haven't priced Redline oils.
I saw your UOA and it looks good, but also curious what you're trying to gain with the mix.
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      02-08-2013, 06:25 PM   #28
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And an older article, but even though redline makes a 10W60, they don't necessary recommend it over their 5w30. (The s54 is used as the example here)

http://www.redlineoil.com/news_article.aspx?id=13
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      02-08-2013, 10:01 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sensi09 View Post
And an older article, but even though redline makes a 10W60, they don't necessary recommend it over their 5w30. (The s54 is used as the example here)

http://www.redlineoil.com/news_article.aspx?id=13
Good find, thanks for posting!
I use the 10W60 myself, will look further into this...
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      02-09-2013, 01:05 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sensi09 View Post
And an older article, but even though redline makes a 10W60, they don't necessary recommend it over their 5w30. (The s54 is used as the example here)

http://www.redlineoil.com/news_article.aspx?id=13
+1 Thanks for the link.

My logic for the lighter weight oil is consistent with the Redline article. Loss of economy and power due to too heavy an oil recommended compared to the intended use. Also, Redline oils are much more stable at temperatures approaching 300 degrees (that our motors see during track days) than the Castrol TWS.
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      02-09-2013, 06:02 PM   #31
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I'm sure other brands and weights will work, but the more I read about TWS on the oil forums, the more likely I'll stick with the TWS or whatever variation is available to the consumer.

The lubro moly is interesting though, with many on the M5 board claiming less oil consumption and a smoother, quieter running engine. I don't have a problem with either of these though....
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      02-18-2013, 02:50 PM   #32
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I went to an Indy shop that specializes in high end cars and heard another opinion on oil for the M3. They don't recommend the Castrol TWS because it doesn't meet German specs; only US specs. They say it lacks zinc because of the following reason. Iffff, the vehicle begins to eat oil, it would likely cause problems with the catalytic converters. They said the lack of the zinc results in more sludge and engine wear and that is what theyve witness with the Castrol TWS! So they use two oils they highly recommend and I only recall one for certain and it is Elf (I think the other was Moly or Mobil but I am uncertain). Elf is what they recommend for my M.

Interesting huh? I know, I certainly am not excited to experiment, but that was what they said.

Any thoughts fam?

Edit: Why recommend that zinc be removed from which wears more on the engine in favor of cats? Possibly to avoid the need to replace cats within 100K mile warranty for emissions components. Again, just sharing what I heard today :-)

Last edited by L4ces; 02-18-2013 at 03:17 PM. Reason: Additional info
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      02-18-2013, 03:12 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L4ces View Post
I went to an Indy shop that specializes in high end cars and heard another opinion on oil for the M3. They don't recommend the Castrol TWS because it doesn't meet German specs; only US specs. They say it lacks zinc because of the following reason. Iffff, the vehicle begins to eat oil, it would likely cause problems with the catalytic converters. They said the lack of the zinc results in more sludge and engine wear and that is what theyve witness with the Castrol TWS! So they use two oils they highly recommend and I only recall one for certain and it is Elf (I think the other was Moly or Mobil but I am uncertain). Elf is what they recommend for my M.

Interesting huh? I know, I certainly am not excited to experiment, but that was what they said.

Any thoughts fam?

ELF Total Quartz is great oil and LL-01 and LL-04 certified (approved for non-M engines) not the s65..its no longer available in the US anyways
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      02-23-2013, 12:40 PM   #34
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I use it, have had it in the M for 6k miles now. Will put another 1k on the car, then send the oil to Blackstone Lab. Will report back afterwards.
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      02-23-2013, 12:45 PM   #35
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For what it's worth, pulled from M5board thread.

Mobil 1 Extended Life 10w60

API SN/SM/SL & CF
ACEA A3/B3, A3/B4

Kinematic viscosity @ 40C_________________________152.7 cSt________(ASTM D445)
Kinematic viscosity @ 100C________________________22.7 cSt_________(ASTM D445)
Viscosity Index___________________________________178
Sulfated Ash wt%_________________________________1.4___________ __(ASTM D874)
Phosphorous, wt%________________________________0.13___________ _(ASTM D4951)
Flash Point_________________________________234C_______ ____(ASTM D92)
Density 15.6C g/ml_____________________________0.86____________(AS TM D4052)
Total Base Number TBN___________________________11.8_____________(AS TM D2896)
MRV @ -30C____________________________________25,762cP__ _______(ASTM D4684)
HTHS Viscosity, mPas @ 150C____________________5.7______________(ASTM D4683)


Quote:
Shell Helix Ultra Racing 10W-60 10W-60

API SM/CF
ACEA A3/B3/B4

Kinematic viscosity @ 40C_________________151 cSt_______________(IP 71)
Kinematic viscosity @ 100C____________________22.8 cSt______________(IP 71)
Density @ 15C_______________________________0.85 kg/l______________(IP 365)
Flash Point___________________________________215C_____ ___________(IP 34)
Pour Point____________________________________-39C________________(IP 15)
HTHS Viscosity @ 150C PaS____________________5.42

Quote:
Valvoline VR1 Racing 10w60

SAE 10W-60
API SL

Kinematic viscosity @ 40C____________________165 mm2/s____________ASTM D-445
Kinematic viscosity @ 100C___________________23.0 mm2/s___________ASTM D-445
Viscosity Index______________________________168____________ ______ASTM D-2270
Viscosity, mPa.s 25C. ______________________<7000 _______________ASTM D-5293
TBN, mg KOH/g_____________________________12.0________________ __ASTM D-2896
Pour Point__________________________________-39C_________________ASTM D-5950
Specific Gravity @ 15.6C.____________________0.864_________________A STM D-4052
Flash Point, COC_____________________________220C_____________ ___ASTM D-92


Quote:
Gulf Competition 10W60

(no formal specifications can be claimed, but these oils contain performance
additives designed to achieve ACEA A3/B4 and API SL/CF)

Kinematic viscosity @ 40C___________________________168.5cSt
Kinematic viscosity @ 100C__________________________24.1cSt
Viscosity Index_____________________________________175
Cold Crank cP______________________________________6450@ -25C
Flash Point_________________________________________>200 C
Pour Point_________________________________________-30C
TBN mg KOH/g_____________________________________9.2
Density @ 15C Kg/l_________________________________0.866


Quote:
Castrol Edge 10W60 & Castrol Edge Professional TWS 10W60
*pdf dated JULY/27/2011
&
*pdf dated JUNE/07/2011

ACEA A3/B4, A3/B3
API SM/CF or earlier specification 10W-60 lubricant.
BMW Exclusive approval for BMW M-Models

Kinematic viscosity @ 40C___________________________________________160 mm/s _____________ASTM D445
Kinematic viscosity @ 100C__________________________________________22. 7 mm/s_____________ASTM D445
Density @ 15C Relative g/ml_________________________________________0.853__ ________________ASTM D4052
Viscosity CCS -25C (10W) mPa.s (cP)_________________________________4879_________ __________ASTM D5293
Viscosity Index None______________________________________________ __173____________________ASTM D2270
Pour Point_____________________________________________ ____________-39C___________________ASTM D97
Flash Point, PMCC______________________________________________ _____203C__________________ASTM D93
Ash Sulphated % wt________________________________________________ _1.29___________________ASTM D874


Quote:
Castrol EDGE SPORT 10W60
*pdf dated MAY/20/2011

API SM/CF,
ACEA A3/B3, A3/B4 or earlier specification 10W-60 lubricant.

Viscosity, Kinematic 40 C__________________________________157 mm/s_____________ASTM D445
Viscosity, Kinematic 100C__________________________________22.9 mm/s____________ASTM D445
Density @ 15C Relative g/ml________________________________0.853___________ _______ASTM D4052
Viscosity CCS -25C mPa.s (cP)_______________________________4700___________ _______ASTM D5293
Viscosity Index None_______________________________________174____ _______________ASTM D2270
Ash, Sulphated % wt_______________________________________1.24_____ _____________ASTM D874
Pour Point_____________________________________________ ___-36C_________________ASTM D97
Flash Point, PMCC__________________________________________208 C________________ASTM D93

Quote:
Liqui Moly Synthoil GT1 10W60

API SL/CF

ASTM colour : _____________________3.5
Density at 15 C : __________________0.86 g/cm
Viscosity at 40 C : _________________163 mm/s
Viscosity at 100 C : ________________24 mm/s
Viscosity index : ___________________179
Flash point : _______________________238 C
Pour point : _______________________-35 C
Evaporation loss : __________________6.9 %
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      03-07-2013, 03:07 PM   #36
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I use liqui molly 10w-60 for top ups with no issues! Indy shop got me hooked on it since my dealer never put enough oil during a routine change
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      03-07-2013, 04:38 PM   #37
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i just did my oil change last night with the liqui moly 10w60, well see how it is...
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      03-07-2013, 05:23 PM   #38
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My UOAs on Castrol have been pretty bad. Showing high bearing related metals at just ~8K miles. I may try Liqui Moly on the next change to see if it slows down the bearing wear.
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      03-19-2013, 10:08 AM   #39
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Sent my sample to Blackstone yesterday. 6500 miles on Liqui Moly 10W60 (had to change oil slightly early due to long roadtrip coming up), no top up in between. Will keep you guys updated.
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      03-23-2013, 04:46 AM   #40
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Blackstone report came back:
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      07-27-2013, 12:26 PM   #41
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Instead of creating a new thread i will just revive this one. Any updates from the guys running Liqui Moly? My local euro shop is recommending me to run it as well. I will stick with TWS for my free maintenance schedule and thinking about running liqui moly in the in between oil changes.
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      07-27-2013, 02:01 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by track_warrior View Post
Instead of creating a new thread i will just revive this one. Any updates from the guys running Liqui Moly? My local euro shop is recommending me to run it as well. I will stick with TWS for my free maintenance schedule and thinking about running liqui moly in the in between oil changes.
I'm about to switch to Mobil1 0W40.

What did you want to know?

My comments:
- Oil takes a while to heat up, and it cools down much fast. IMHO, great for track. Done a few mountain runs this summer, and my car barely went past 220F. But I want an oil that heats up faster (thus switching to 0W40).
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      07-27-2013, 03:20 PM   #43
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First of all, the other brands of 10w60 mentioned would certainly work fine in the M3, but are they better than the TWS? Where's the data? A single pass uoa with a different oil means nothing. How about a voa (virgin oil analysis) of the "better" oils. In what respect exactly are they better? For comparison here is a recent voa of the currrent formulation of TWS http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=839626.

You can certainly run a lighter grade oil in the M3 (e.g. Mobil1 0w40). As a matter of fact a recent uoa of the factory fill drained at 1200 mi seems to show it is a xw30 wt oil, and a fairly unremarkable one at that (it may even be a conventional mineral oil, as many break-in oils are) -
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=848738.

FWIW, I think the reason BMW specs a 10w60 for the M3 is to counter the thinning effects of fuel dilution over the span of an extended drain. Fuel dilution is not that uncommon in high perf. motors like the s65. In fact if you look at the pds (product description sheets) of many "racing" oils (e.g. the Motul 300V series) you'll see they are intended to deal with fuel dilution. Many uoa's of TWS have shown that by the time the oil has run around 7k mi it is a heavy 40 wt. I don't recall ever seeing a uoa of an oil like Mobil 1 0w40 run to 7k or more; wonder what the viscosity would be at that point?

Franky, I think you could probably run Wolf's Head 5w30 in the M3 and get away with it as long as you kept to very short drain intervals.

As for the indie shops that say their brands of 10w60 are better - - ask them to show you the data. Tischer BMW (aka Get BMW Parts online) have said that the reason they don't offer TWS on sale at lower prices is because their profit margin on TWS oil is so low to begin with. I suspect that is the reason many indies don't offer it but sell other brands with a better profit margin. Still good oils, but better than TWS?

PS for W ///: if you want an oil to run at higher temps, you want a thicker oil like TWS. Thicker oil has more internal friction than a lighter oil and thus runs slightly hotter.
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Last edited by m6pwr; 07-27-2013 at 03:26 PM.
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      07-27-2013, 03:42 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W/// View Post
I'm about to switch to Mobil1 0W40.

What did you want to know?

My comments:
- Oil takes a while to heat up, and it cools down much fast. IMHO, great for track. Done a few mountain runs this summer, and my car barely went past 220F. But I want an oil that heats up faster (thus switching to 0W40).
See in Texas we get terrible summer temps and my car does see the track at least 5 times in the summer. If BMW is recommending running 10w-60 and they test in germany where temps are much cooler i think we are fine in the US where temps are generally a bit warmer.

I wanted to ask the guys that are running liqui moly if you felt any change in engine noise, power, wear on oil analysis etc. I think TWS is an excellent oil but it always has me wondering is there anything better out there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by m6pwr View Post
First of all, the other brands of 10w60 mentioned would certainly work fine in the M3, but are they better than the TWS? Where's the data? A single pass uoa with a different oil means nothing. How about a voa (virgin oil analysis) of the "better" oils. In what respect exactly are they better? For comparison here is a recent voa of the currrent formulation of TWS http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=839626.

You can certainly run a lighter grade oil in the M3 (e.g. Mobil1 0w40). As a matter of fact a recent uoa of the factory fill drained at 1200 mi seems to show it is a xw30 wt oil, and a fairly unremarkable one at that (it may even be a conventional mineral oil, as many break-in oils are) -
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=848738.

FWIW, I think the reason BMW specs a 10w60 for the M3 is to counter the thinning effects of fuel dilution over the span of an extended drain. Fuel dilution is not that uncommon in high perf. motors like the s65. In fact if you look at the pds (product description sheets) of many "racing" oils (e.g. the Motul 300V series) you'll see they are intended to deal with fuel dilution. Many uoa's of TWS have shown that by the time the oil has run around 7k mi it is a heavy 40 wt. I don't recall ever seeing a uoa of an oil like Mobil 1 0w40 run to 7k or more; wonder what the viscosity would be at that point?

Franky, I think you could probably run Wolf's Head 5w30 in the M3 and get away with it as long as you kept to very short drain intervals.

As for the indie shops that say their brands of 10w60 are better - - ask them to show you the data. Tischer BMW (aka Get BMW Parts online) have said that the reason they don't offer TWS on sale at lower prices is because their profit margin on TWS oil is so low to begin with. I suspect that is the reason many indies don't offer it but sell other brands with a better profit margin. Still good oils, but better than TWS?

PS for W ///: if you want an oil to run at higher temps, you want a thicker oil like TWS. Thicker oil has more internal friction than a lighter oil and thus runs slightly hotter.
The shop where i get my services done is more of a european performance shop they only carry motul but since its not available in the specified 10w-60 weight they told me to supply the oil so i dont think the profit margin is in question here. The bmw tech that works for the shop recommended i try out liqui moly, he said it has a higher zinc content and provides better wear and heat protection. I dont even know the cost difference between TWS and LiquiMoly so im not trying to cheap out, im trying to find the best solution since im planning on keeping the car for a while. Im thinking about doing a blackstone analysis on my current oil that is TWS and then do one when i switch over to liqui moly to see if there is any difference in oil breakdown and wear.

This is the main reason im trying to get some info from people that have already done this to see if its worth it to try 10w-60 liqui moly. My next oil change will not be covered by the service program since im doing oil changes every 5k miles as cheap insurance so i though i would try something else, motul is great stuff unfortunately its not available in the oem specified weight.
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