BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > M3 (E90 / E92 / E93) > M3 vs....
 
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      02-04-2013, 12:02 AM   #67
e92involved
Captain
 
e92involved's Avatar
 
Drives: 2012 BMW e92 M3
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: SF Bay Area

Posts: 646
iTrader: (1)

I am a car dealer. I have owned many cars and driven the new C63; along with the Black Series. I also track my cars; grew up in shifter carts. I love MBZ, I just prefer BMW

Quote:
Originally Posted by gthal View Post
OK... fair enough, I made that response to personal... I apologize. Let me re-state.

I have owned 2 E92 M3s and a 2012 C63 AMG coupe. Tracked all three cars fairly extensively and daily drove all 3 as well. Based on my specific experience with both cars, their driving experience is more similar than it is different. Therefore, your comments that "MB doesn't bring the same driving experience" and that "BMW is the master" do not reflect my personal experience with the two cars. The comment about the MB driving experience is similar to what people who haven't extensively driven a 2012+ MB might say based on what they have read on BMW forums rather than based on actual experience. It might have been true of MB of previous generations but not so much today. I can't comment on your experience specifically but if you had experienced a 2012 C63 coupe, I would be very surprised if you had this same view. You may still prefer the driving experience of the M3 but I would be surprised if your opinion of the MB driving experience wasn't very different.
__________________
e92involved is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      02-04-2013, 01:04 AM   #68
zamboni
I want to drive a Zamboni
 
zamboni's Avatar
 
Drives: 09 E82 128i 13 E93 M3
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Monte Sereno, CA

Posts: 3,114
iTrader: (5)

Garage List
2013 BMW E93 M3  [0.00]
2009 E82 128i  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by e92involved View Post
I am a car dealer. I have owned many cars and driven the new C63; along with the Black Series. I also track my cars; grew up in shifter carts. I love MBZ, I just prefer BMW
Well said in the end who came out on top MB or BMW?
__________________
13 E93 M3 Melbourne Red DCT/Premium/EDC/NAV/220M wheel
12 E93 Space Gray ( Retired BMW buy back )
09 E82 Space Gray/Black int/Steps/Sport/Nav/Premium/Xenon/Phone Int/Hifi/269 wheel
2006 E90 ( sold )
My next vehicle would be a Zamboni
zamboni is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      02-04-2013, 01:19 AM   #69
e92involved
Captain
 
e92involved's Avatar
 
Drives: 2012 BMW e92 M3
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: SF Bay Area

Posts: 646
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by zamboni View Post
Well said in the end who came out on top MB or BMW?
Lets just say at the track you see a lot more BMWs than MBZs.
__________________
e92involved is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      02-04-2013, 09:49 AM   #70
m3p40
Private
 
Drives: M3 E92
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: NY

Posts: 77
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by gthal View Post
245 front and 275 rear is very common. Beyond 275 is doable but tough. Potenza RE-11 in a 275 rear is tons of grip.
Sounds like enough grip. It's interesting because I run 295s on my M3 with no problem. I feel a car like the C63 should be setup for some nice wide tires. Although I will admit 295 on an M3 is overkill. 275 is probably perfect.
m3p40 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      02-04-2013, 11:24 AM   #71
KennyPowers
Brigadier General
 
Drives: .....
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Gulf Coast

Posts: 4,086
iTrader: (13)

Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by m3p40 View Post
Sounds like enough grip. It's interesting because I run 295s on my M3 with no problem. I feel a car like the C63 should be setup for some nice wide tires. Although I will admit 295 on an M3 is overkill. 275 is probably perfect.
I have RE-11 in stock sizes on my zcp wheels on my 1M, and there is a ton of grip, especially for cornering on the track.

My car makes over 400 ft/lbs to the wheels and the re-11's were up to the task almost the entire time on the track and on the street.

they are amazing tires, and probably can tame the c63 to a degree. superior to PSS in track style driving.

i look forward to what BMW and Mercedes both come up with on the next generation of the m3 / c63
__________________
PCD 10/10 on 2015 M3 : MW / SB Full Leather / HK audio / Adaptive Suspension / Silver 19s / 6MT / CF Roof
KennyPowers is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      02-04-2013, 02:55 PM   #72
BlackJetE90
Colonel
 
Drives: E90
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: e90

Posts: 2,262
iTrader: (0)

BMW needs a normally aspirated track version of the next gen M3. While having the FI version for the street. Think... 911 GT3/Turbo, Boss 302/GT500, etc...
BlackJetE90 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      02-04-2013, 03:15 PM   #73
KennyPowers
Brigadier General
 
Drives: .....
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Gulf Coast

Posts: 4,086
iTrader: (13)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackJetE90 View Post
BMW needs a normally aspirated track version of the next gen M3. While having the FI version for the street. Think... 911 GT3/Turbo, Boss 302/GT500, etc...
that would be crazy expensive number one.

second of all, a track spec m3 (if built) imo would benefit a ton more from things like

-weight reduction
-improved braking performance
-improved handling / stiffness in chassis

than it would from an n/a vs turbo motor. the gtr owns the track and is turbocharged. it owns the track because it outhandles the pants off most other cars on the track.
__________________
PCD 10/10 on 2015 M3 : MW / SB Full Leather / HK audio / Adaptive Suspension / Silver 19s / 6MT / CF Roof
KennyPowers is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      02-04-2013, 06:33 PM   #74
CptSlow
First Lieutenant
 
Drives: 2014 Porsche Cayman S
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Atlanta

Posts: 326
iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by nbennettksu View Post
are you driving the car that you love? If yes, then who cares if you can travel 0-60 .1 second faster?

I couldn't care less about 0-60. But BMW is becoming a follower, not a leader. They're the German Toyota.
__________________
2014 Porsche Cayman S
2013 E82 135is DCT (SOLD)
2011 E92 M3 (SOLD) 6MT
2011 E82 128i STEP (wife's car)
2007 E92 335i (SOLD) 6MT
CptSlow is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      02-04-2013, 09:57 PM   #75
adc
Brigadier General
 
Drives: 2009 E90 M3 ED
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: MD/DC

Posts: 4,113
iTrader: (6)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CptSlow View Post
I couldn't care less about 0-60. But BMW is becoming a follower, not a leader. They're the German Toyota.
How so?

They came up with a radical technology on which they will produce the first mass market CF automobile, most likely the first viable electric car too. They have the best turbocharged engines in the industry.

They seem to be going backwards in terms of feel and handling, but technologically they are very much relevant and at the front of the pack.
__________________

2009 E90 M3 ED
2014 X1 28i ED
adc is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      02-05-2013, 01:32 AM   #76
BlackJetE90
Colonel
 
Drives: E90
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: e90

Posts: 2,262
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by KennyPowers View Post
that would be crazy expensive number one.

second of all, a track spec m3 (if built) imo would benefit a ton more from things like

-weight reduction
-improved braking performance
-improved handling / stiffness in chassis

than it would from an n/a vs turbo motor. the gtr owns the track and is turbocharged. it owns the track because it outhandles the pants off most other cars on the track.
Considering the next gen M3 is supposedly getting those three things. A normally aspirated track focused option would be perfect. Other brands offer it, even in less expensive cars. They have a 4.4L V8 from the GTS ready to go.

Many who track their car would very much benefit from a NA version. Especially those that track their car long sessions on hot track days. I have dealt with FI, it can be a headache at times. I rather spend my track days doing laps, than taking cool down time in the paddock.
BlackJetE90 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      02-05-2013, 06:39 AM   #77
roastbeef
Captain
 
roastbeef's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Orange County, CA

Posts: 790
iTrader: (0)

bmw hasn't done anything because an M3 will still kill the c63 507 around a twisty track, and they are working on the next gen M car.
__________________
roastbeef is online now   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      02-05-2013, 09:27 AM   #78
hakaida442
First Lieutenant
 
hakaida442's Avatar
 
Drives: 11 Porsche 911 Carrera GTS
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Las Vegas, NV

Posts: 371
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
How so?

They came up with a radical technology on which they will produce the first mass market CF automobile, most likely the first viable electric car too. They have the best turbocharged engines in the industry.

They seem to be going backwards in terms of feel and handling, but technologically they are very much relevant and at the front of the pack.
Best turbocharged engines in the industry? Don't be a bmw homer.

What about the engine in the GTR or the 911 Turbo. And there's supercars that are turbocharged too like the McLaren MP4-12C, Bugatti Veyron, and Pagani Huayra.
hakaida442 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      02-05-2013, 11:16 AM   #79
Mookster
Lieutenant
 
Mookster's Avatar
 
Drives: 2009 Z06
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Seattle

Posts: 570
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by hakaida442 View Post
Best turbocharged engines in the industry? Don't be a bmw homer.

What about the engine in the GTR or the 911 Turbo. And there's supercars that are turbocharged too like the McLaren MP4-12C, Bugatti Veyron, and Pagani Huayra.
Dont mind him, he does this nonsense talk in all threads.
__________________
Mookster is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      02-05-2013, 02:34 PM   #80
gthal
Brigadier General
 
gthal's Avatar
 
Drives: 2015 M4
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Canada

Posts: 3,044
iTrader: (2)

Garage List
2011 M3  [3.37]
Quote:
Originally Posted by roastbeef View Post
bmw hasn't done anything because an M3 will still kill the c63 507 around a twisty track, and they are working on the next gen M car.
Maybe... Maybe not. Check the "regular" 2012 C63 'Ring time compared to the e92 M3 and report back (hint, it is faster by 4 seconds). You aren't giving the revised C63 credit for its handling and braking. Both of which are very close to the M3 but the almost 100hp advantage of the 507 will more than make up the difference.

Having said that, times only mean so much as the M3 is still the better overall track car IMO but you are nuts to think the 507 won't be faster on most tracks. The only tracks where the M3 will be as fast IMO are very short, very tight tracks and, even then, maybe not.
__________________
2015 Austin Yellow M4 | Black Full Merino Leather | DCT
2014 Corvette Stingray | Z51 | Torch Red | 7MT - Sold
2012 C63 Coupe | Performance package | Obsidian Black - Sold
2011 E92 M3 | Jerez Black | Fox Red | DCT | Competition Package - Sold

Last edited by gthal; 02-05-2013 at 04:37 PM.
gthal is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      02-06-2013, 12:50 AM   #81
adc
Brigadier General
 
Drives: 2009 E90 M3 ED
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: MD/DC

Posts: 4,113
iTrader: (6)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mookster View Post
Dont mind him, he does this nonsense talk in all threads.
If you have some actual contributions other than one line wisdom pearls, please feel free to post them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hakaida442 View Post
Best turbocharged engines in the industry? Don't be a bmw homer.

What about the engine in the GTR or the 911 Turbo. And there's supercars that are turbocharged too like the McLaren MP4-12C, Bugatti Veyron, and Pagani Huayra.
I didnt think the engine in the GTR is technologically superior to the N54. Engine wise, the GTR i test drove felt like a more powerful 335, and sounded worse. Similar turbo lag and throttle response but of course more power. Is there some magic technology inside that makes you say that? or are you confusing technology with horsepower? because for the brief they were created on, BMW's engines are very very good. The N54/N55/N20 weren't created to compete with a Porsche turbo, but with other mid priced luxury and entry luxury cars, and there's nothing in that segment that can touch them IMO.

The engine in a 911 turbo probably costs more than the whole 335, and the only technical superiority that i am aware of is the variable geometry turbo. Then again BMW has Valvetronic which is very nifty technology. I mean granted, those other engines are heavily reinforced to support massive amounts of boost, but I don't think that counts as a technological advancement - that has been around since the 80s.


You may agree with my ideas or not, but how do your consider BMW to not be technologically advanced? As compared to whom?

You can criticize them for a lack of vision for not playing in certain segments, like the R8. I do. You can criticize them for reneging on some of their core brand values such as driving dynamics. I do. You can criticize their styling or whatnot. It's been done.

But I don't think you can criticize them on the technology front, they are simply some of the best.



To get things back on track with this thread, I don't at all admire AMG's approach to create a capable engine, then simply selling it in various states of tune and charging increasing amounts of money for the different tunes. I think they should have come out of the gate with the best engine they knew how to build in the C63. None of this piecemeal stuff, and if you have a 2 year old C63 then it's completely obsolete. Of course, that's just my opinion and since I'll probably never own an AMG its most likely irrelevant to the brand.
__________________

2009 E90 M3 ED
2014 X1 28i ED

Last edited by adc; 02-06-2013 at 01:08 AM.
adc is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      02-06-2013, 04:35 AM   #82
roastbeef
Captain
 
roastbeef's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Orange County, CA

Posts: 790
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by gthal View Post
Maybe... Maybe not. Check the "regular" 2012 C63 'Ring time compared to the e92 M3 and report back (hint, it is faster by 4 seconds). You aren't giving the revised C63 credit for its handling and braking. Both of which are very close to the M3 but the almost 100hp advantage of the 507 will more than make up the difference.

Having said that, times only mean so much as the M3 is still the better overall track car IMO but you are nuts to think the 507 won't be faster on most tracks. The only tracks where the M3 will be as fast IMO are very short, very tight tracks and, even then, maybe not.
i didn't even look at track times, i'm merely thinking of the tons of comparison tests in the e92's class where the m3 wins.
in the hands of a professional, i would imagine they are close in performance, but to the every day driver and occasional track visitor, the m3 will still be superior.
the c63 507 is almost getting into the "apples to oranges" category... as its price is significantly higher as well as the power. mercedes is so focused on beating an m3 that came out in 2007 they are packing a crazy powerful motor into their c63 platform and skipping over what makes an Mcar perform like it does- lower weight, better handling, and adequate power used efficiently.
__________________
roastbeef is online now   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      02-06-2013, 06:25 AM   #83
hakaida442
First Lieutenant
 
hakaida442's Avatar
 
Drives: 11 Porsche 911 Carrera GTS
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Las Vegas, NV

Posts: 371
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
If you have some actual contributions other than one line wisdom pearls, please feel free to post them.



I didnt think the engine in the GTR is technologically superior to the N54. Engine wise, the GTR i test drove felt like a more powerful 335, and sounded worse. Similar turbo lag and throttle response but of course more power. Is there some magic technology inside that makes you say that? or are you confusing technology with horsepower? because for the brief they were created on, BMW's engines are very very good. The N54/N55/N20 weren't created to compete with a Porsche turbo, but with other mid priced luxury and entry luxury cars, and there's nothing in that segment that can touch them IMO.

The engine in a 911 turbo probably costs more than the whole 335, and the only technical superiority that i am aware of is the variable geometry turbo. Then again BMW has Valvetronic which is very nifty technology. I mean granted, those other engines are heavily reinforced to support massive amounts of boost, but I don't think that counts as a technological advancement - that has been around since the 80s.


You may agree with my ideas or not, but how do your consider BMW to not be technologically advanced? As compared to whom?

You can criticize them for a lack of vision for not playing in certain segments, like the R8. I do. You can criticize them for reneging on some of their core brand values such as driving dynamics. I do. You can criticize their styling or whatnot. It's been done.

But I don't think you can criticize them on the technology front, they are simply some of the best.



To get things back on track with this thread, I don't at all admire AMG's approach to create a capable engine, then simply selling it in various states of tune and charging increasing amounts of money for the different tunes. I think they should have come out of the gate with the best engine they knew how to build in the C63. None of this piecemeal stuff, and if you have a 2 year old C63 then it's completely obsolete. Of course, that's just my opinion and since I'll probably never own an AMG its most likely irrelevant to the brand.
I never said that it wasn't technologically advanced. The inline 6 turbo from bmw is a fine engine, but when you call it the best then that's where I take issue as there are many turbocharged engines that are better. Now if you said that the bmw inline 6 turbocharged engine is the best for the price, then you could be right. You stated that it was the best turbocharged engine in the industry and thats where you are wrong. A 15 year old 2JZ-GTE engine with the same 3 liters displacement and inline six configuration can be tuned for a lot more reliable power.
hakaida442 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      02-06-2013, 07:32 AM   #84
adc
Brigadier General
 
Drives: 2009 E90 M3 ED
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: MD/DC

Posts: 4,113
iTrader: (6)

Quote:
Originally Posted by hakaida442 View Post
You stated that it was the best turbocharged engine in the industry and thats where you are wrong. A 15 year old 2JZ-GTE engine with the same 3 liters displacement and inline six configuration can be tuned for a lot more reliable power.
That engine just makes more power, it's not better. With that big power comes massive turbo lag, big fuel consumption, and reduced long term reliability (just because it doesn't blow up on the dyno, it doesn't mean it will last 150 k miles).

And Audi had a turbo 5 cylinder that could be taken to 600 BHP in the 80s, and to 900BHP in the early 90s. Google Dahlback Audi and enjoy.


But they're just not better engines, simply because they can make more power.
__________________

2009 E90 M3 ED
2014 X1 28i ED
adc is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      02-06-2013, 02:26 PM   #85
hakaida442
First Lieutenant
 
hakaida442's Avatar
 
Drives: 11 Porsche 911 Carrera GTS
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Las Vegas, NV

Posts: 371
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
That engine just makes more power, it's not better. With that big power comes massive turbo lag, big fuel consumption, and reduced long term reliability (just because it doesn't blow up on the dyno, it doesn't mean it will last 150 k miles).

And Audi had a turbo 5 cylinder that could be taken to 600 BHP in the 80s, and to 900BHP in the early 90s. Google Dahlback Audi and enjoy.


But they're just not better engines, simply because they can make more power.
So you're going to stick to the story that the bmw inline 6 turbocharged engine is the BEST turbocharged engine in the whole world?

I don't think there's anything wrong with the engine. It's proven itself in multiple bmw cars, but when you throw the word "best" around that's where I feel that you are wrong because there are a lot of cars out there with better turbocharged engines imho.
hakaida442 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      02-06-2013, 08:30 PM   #86
adc
Brigadier General
 
Drives: 2009 E90 M3 ED
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: MD/DC

Posts: 4,113
iTrader: (6)

Quote:
Originally Posted by hakaida442 View Post
So you're going to stick to the story that the bmw inline 6 turbocharged engine is the BEST turbocharged engine in the whole world?

I don't think there's anything wrong with the engine. It's proven itself in multiple bmw cars, but when you throw the word "best" around that's where I feel that you are wrong because there are a lot of cars out there with better turbocharged engines imho.
So which one is the best?
__________________

2009 E90 M3 ED
2014 X1 28i ED
adc is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      02-09-2013, 05:13 PM   #87
DiavelM3
4 Star General -Twilight Zone
 
DiavelM3's Avatar
 
Drives: '11 E92 M3 ZCP
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: 5280

Posts: 1,025
iTrader: (1)

Why haven't Mercedes (or Audi for that matter), gone with a Carbon Fiber roof like BMW has? Patent?
__________________
'12 Ducati Diavel
'06 E46 M3 (sold) | '97 325is - Dinan (sold)
'02 Z3 3.0 coupe (sold)
Past - '84 Ferrari 308 GTSI | '88 Ferrari 328 GTS | '05 Dodge Viper Copperhead Edition #180/300 | Audi S4

Last edited by DiavelM3; 02-09-2013 at 05:19 PM.
DiavelM3 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      02-09-2013, 06:16 PM   #88
gblansten
Beandoc
 
gblansten's Avatar
 
Drives: 2014 BMW M5 SG/SS
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Thick ascending limb

Posts: 2,142
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DiavelM3 View Post
Why haven't Mercedes (or Audi for that matter), gone with a Carbon Fiber roof like BMW has? Patent?
Car weighs 4000 pounds. They are probably thinking 'f**K it'.
gblansten is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:42 AM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST