C63 507 Edition

[dreamspeed]

Build it and they will come. If BMW makes a performance edition M3 with actual notable performance upgrades I'm positive it will sell out.

[Mookster]

Originally Posted by dreamspeed

Build it and they will come. If BMW makes a performance edition M3 with actual notable performance upgrades I'm positive it will sell out.

Thats what they will do with next gen M3/M4. They gonna give it baby HP first two years and ppl will still buy it since its new and all. Then when sales slow down up the power to reel in customers, brilliant marketing.

[e92involved]

I am a car dealer. I have owned many cars and driven the new C63; along with the Black Series. I also track my cars; grew up in shifter carts. I love MBZ, I just prefer BMW

Originally Posted by gthal

OK... fair enough, I made that response to personal... I apologize. Let me re-state.

I have owned 2 E92 M3s and a 2012 C63 AMG coupe. Tracked all three cars fairly extensively and daily drove all 3 as well. Based on my specific experience with both cars, their driving experience is more similar than it is different. Therefore, your comments that "MB doesn't bring the same driving experience" and that "BMW is the master" do not reflect my personal experience with the two cars. The comment about the MB driving experience is similar to what people who haven't extensively driven a 2012+ MB might say based on what they have read on BMW forums rather than based on actual experience. It might have been true of MB of previous generations but not so much today. I can't comment on your experience specifically but if you had experienced a 2012 C63 coupe, I would be very surprised if you had this same view. You may still prefer the driving experience of the M3 but I would be surprised if your opinion of the MB driving experience wasn't very different.

[zamboni]

Originally Posted by e92involved

I am a car dealer. I have owned many cars and driven the new C63; along with the Black Series. I also track my cars; grew up in shifter carts. I love MBZ, I just prefer BMW

Well said in the end who came out on top MB or BMW?

[e92involved]

Originally Posted by zamboni

Well said in the end who came out on top MB or BMW?

Lets just say at the track you see a lot more BMWs than MBZs.

[m3p40]

Originally Posted by gthal

245 front and 275 rear is very common. Beyond 275 is doable but tough. Potenza RE-11 in a 275 rear is tons of grip.

Sounds like enough grip. It's interesting because I run 295s on my M3 with no problem. I feel a car like the C63 should be setup for some nice wide tires. Although I will admit 295 on an M3 is overkill. 275 is probably perfect.

[KennyPowers]

Originally Posted by m3p40

Sounds like enough grip. It's interesting because I run 295s on my M3 with no problem. I feel a car like the C63 should be setup for some nice wide tires. Although I will admit 295 on an M3 is overkill. 275 is probably perfect.

I have RE-11 in stock sizes on my zcp wheels on my 1M, and there is a ton of grip, especially for cornering on the track.

My car makes over 400 ft/lbs to the wheels and the re-11's were up to the task almost the entire time on the track and on the street.

they are amazing tires, and probably can tame the c63 to a degree. superior to PSS in track style driving.

i look forward to what BMW and Mercedes both come up with on the next generation of the m3 / c63

[BlackJetE90]

BMW needs a normally aspirated track version of the next gen M3. While having the FI version for the street. Think... 911 GT3/Turbo, Boss 302/GT500, etc...

[KennyPowers]

Originally Posted by BlackJetE90

BMW needs a normally aspirated track version of the next gen M3. While having the FI version for the street. Think... 911 GT3/Turbo, Boss 302/GT500, etc...

that would be crazy expensive number one.

second of all, a track spec m3 (if built) imo would benefit a ton more from things like

-weight reduction
-improved braking performance
-improved handling / stiffness in chassis

than it would from an n/a vs turbo motor. the gtr owns the track and is turbocharged. it owns the track because it outhandles the pants off most other cars on the track.

[CptSlow]

Originally Posted by nbennettksu

are you driving the car that you love? If yes, then who cares if you can travel 0-60 .1 second faster?

I couldn't care less about 0-60. But BMW is becoming a follower, not a leader. They're the German Toyota.

[adc]

Originally Posted by CptSlow

I couldn't care less about 0-60. But BMW is becoming a follower, not a leader. They're the German Toyota.

How so?

They came up with a radical technology on which they will produce the first mass market CF automobile, most likely the first viable electric car too. They have the best turbocharged engines in the industry.

They seem to be going backwards in terms of feel and handling, but technologically they are very much relevant and at the front of the pack.

[BlackJetE90]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

that would be crazy expensive number one.

second of all, a track spec m3 (if built) imo would benefit a ton more from things like

-weight reduction
-improved braking performance
-improved handling / stiffness in chassis

than it would from an n/a vs turbo motor. the gtr owns the track and is turbocharged. it owns the track because it outhandles the pants off most other cars on the track.

Considering the next gen M3 is supposedly getting those three things. A normally aspirated track focused option would be perfect. Other brands offer it, even in less expensive cars. They have a 4.4L V8 from the GTS ready to go.

Many who track their car would very much benefit from a NA version. Especially those that track their car long sessions on hot track days. I have dealt with FI, it can be a headache at times. I rather spend my track days doing laps, than taking cool down time in the paddock.

[roastbeef]

bmw hasn't done anything because an M3 will still kill the c63 507 around a twisty track, and they are working on the next gen M car.

[hakaida442]

Originally Posted by adc

How so?

They came up with a radical technology on which they will produce the first mass market CF automobile, most likely the first viable electric car too. They have the best turbocharged engines in the industry.

They seem to be going backwards in terms of feel and handling, but technologically they are very much relevant and at the front of the pack.

Best turbocharged engines in the industry? Don't be a bmw homer.

What about the engine in the GTR or the 911 Turbo. And there's supercars that are turbocharged too like the McLaren MP4-12C, Bugatti Veyron, and Pagani Huayra.

[Mookster]

Originally Posted by hakaida442

Best turbocharged engines in the industry? Don't be a bmw homer.

What about the engine in the GTR or the 911 Turbo. And there's supercars that are turbocharged too like the McLaren MP4-12C, Bugatti Veyron, and Pagani Huayra.

Dont mind him, he does this nonsense talk in all threads.

[gthal]

Originally Posted by roastbeef

bmw hasn't done anything because an M3 will still kill the c63 507 around a twisty track, and they are working on the next gen M car.

Maybe... Maybe not. Check the "regular" 2012 C63 'Ring time compared to the e92 M3 and report back (hint, it is faster by 4 seconds). You aren't giving the revised C63 credit for its handling and braking. Both of which are very close to the M3 but the almost 100hp advantage of the 507 will more than make up the difference.

Having said that, times only mean so much as the M3 is still the better overall track car IMO but you are nuts to think the 507 won't be faster on most tracks. The only tracks where the M3 will be as fast IMO are very short, very tight tracks and, even then, maybe not.

[adc]

Originally Posted by Mookster

Dont mind him, he does this nonsense talk in all threads.

If you have some actual contributions other than one line wisdom pearls, please feel free to post them.

Originally Posted by hakaida442

Best turbocharged engines in the industry? Don't be a bmw homer.

What about the engine in the GTR or the 911 Turbo. And there's supercars that are turbocharged too like the McLaren MP4-12C, Bugatti Veyron, and Pagani Huayra.

I didnt think the engine in the GTR is technologically superior to the N54. Engine wise, the GTR i test drove felt like a more powerful 335, and sounded worse. Similar turbo lag and throttle response but of course more power. Is there some magic technology inside that makes you say that? or are you confusing technology with horsepower? because for the brief they were created on, BMW's engines are very very good. The N54/N55/N20 weren't created to compete with a Porsche turbo, but with other mid priced luxury and entry luxury cars, and there's nothing in that segment that can touch them IMO.

The engine in a 911 turbo probably costs more than the whole 335, and the only technical superiority that i am aware of is the variable geometry turbo. Then again BMW has Valvetronic which is very nifty technology. I mean granted, those other engines are heavily reinforced to support massive amounts of boost, but I don't think that counts as a technological advancement - that has been around since the 80s.


You may agree with my ideas or not, but how do your consider BMW to not be technologically advanced? As compared to whom?

You can criticize them for a lack of vision for not playing in certain segments, like the R8. I do. You can criticize them for reneging on some of their core brand values such as driving dynamics. I do. You can criticize their styling or whatnot. It's been done.

But I don't think you can criticize them on the technology front, they are simply some of the best.



To get things back on track with this thread, I don't at all admire AMG's approach to create a capable engine, then simply selling it in various states of tune and charging increasing amounts of money for the different tunes. I think they should have come out of the gate with the best engine they knew how to build in the C63. None of this piecemeal stuff, and if you have a 2 year old C63 then it's completely obsolete. Of course, that's just my opinion and since I'll probably never own an AMG its most likely irrelevant to the brand.

[roastbeef]

Originally Posted by gthal

Maybe... Maybe not. Check the "regular" 2012 C63 'Ring time compared to the e92 M3 and report back (hint, it is faster by 4 seconds). You aren't giving the revised C63 credit for its handling and braking. Both of which are very close to the M3 but the almost 100hp advantage of the 507 will more than make up the difference.

Having said that, times only mean so much as the M3 is still the better overall track car IMO but you are nuts to think the 507 won't be faster on most tracks. The only tracks where the M3 will be as fast IMO are very short, very tight tracks and, even then, maybe not.

i didn't even look at track times, i'm merely thinking of the tons of comparison tests in the e92's class where the m3 wins.
in the hands of a professional, i would imagine they are close in performance, but to the every day driver and occasional track visitor, the m3 will still be superior.
the c63 507 is almost getting into the "apples to oranges" category... as its price is significantly higher as well as the power. mercedes is so focused on beating an m3 that came out in 2007 they are packing a crazy powerful motor into their c63 platform and skipping over what makes an Mcar perform like it does- lower weight, better handling, and adequate power used efficiently.

[hakaida442]

Originally Posted by adc

If you have some actual contributions other than one line wisdom pearls, please feel free to post them.



I didnt think the engine in the GTR is technologically superior to the N54. Engine wise, the GTR i test drove felt like a more powerful 335, and sounded worse. Similar turbo lag and throttle response but of course more power. Is there some magic technology inside that makes you say that? or are you confusing technology with horsepower? because for the brief they were created on, BMW's engines are very very good. The N54/N55/N20 weren't created to compete with a Porsche turbo, but with other mid priced luxury and entry luxury cars, and there's nothing in that segment that can touch them IMO.

The engine in a 911 turbo probably costs more than the whole 335, and the only technical superiority that i am aware of is the variable geometry turbo. Then again BMW has Valvetronic which is very nifty technology. I mean granted, those other engines are heavily reinforced to support massive amounts of boost, but I don't think that counts as a technological advancement - that has been around since the 80s.


You may agree with my ideas or not, but how do your consider BMW to not be technologically advanced? As compared to whom?

You can criticize them for a lack of vision for not playing in certain segments, like the R8. I do. You can criticize them for reneging on some of their core brand values such as driving dynamics. I do. You can criticize their styling or whatnot. It's been done.

But I don't think you can criticize them on the technology front, they are simply some of the best.



To get things back on track with this thread, I don't at all admire AMG's approach to create a capable engine, then simply selling it in various states of tune and charging increasing amounts of money for the different tunes. I think they should have come out of the gate with the best engine they knew how to build in the C63. None of this piecemeal stuff, and if you have a 2 year old C63 then it's completely obsolete. Of course, that's just my opinion and since I'll probably never own an AMG its most likely irrelevant to the brand.

I never said that it wasn't technologically advanced. The inline 6 turbo from bmw is a fine engine, but when you call it the best then that's where I take issue as there are many turbocharged engines that are better. Now if you said that the bmw inline 6 turbocharged engine is the best for the price, then you could be right. You stated that it was the best turbocharged engine in the industry and thats where you are wrong. A 15 year old 2JZ-GTE engine with the same 3 liters displacement and inline six configuration can be tuned for a lot more reliable power.

[adc]

Originally Posted by hakaida442

You stated that it was the best turbocharged engine in the industry and thats where you are wrong. A 15 year old 2JZ-GTE engine with the same 3 liters displacement and inline six configuration can be tuned for a lot more reliable power.

That engine just makes more power, it's not better. With that big power comes massive turbo lag, big fuel consumption, and reduced long term reliability (just because it doesn't blow up on the dyno, it doesn't mean it will last 150 k miles).

And Audi had a turbo 5 cylinder that could be taken to 600 BHP in the 80s, and to 900BHP in the early 90s. Google Dahlback Audi and enjoy.


But they're just not better engines, simply because they can make more power.

[hakaida442]

Originally Posted by adc

That engine just makes more power, it's not better. With that big power comes massive turbo lag, big fuel consumption, and reduced long term reliability (just because it doesn't blow up on the dyno, it doesn't mean it will last 150 k miles).

And Audi had a turbo 5 cylinder that could be taken to 600 BHP in the 80s, and to 900BHP in the early 90s. Google Dahlback Audi and enjoy.


But they're just not better engines, simply because they can make more power.

So you're going to stick to the story that the bmw inline 6 turbocharged engine is the BEST turbocharged engine in the whole world?

I don't think there's anything wrong with the engine. It's proven itself in multiple bmw cars, but when you throw the word "best" around that's where I feel that you are wrong because there are a lot of cars out there with better turbocharged engines imho.

[adc]

Originally Posted by hakaida442

So you're going to stick to the story that the bmw inline 6 turbocharged engine is the BEST turbocharged engine in the whole world?

I don't think there's anything wrong with the engine. It's proven itself in multiple bmw cars, but when you throw the word "best" around that's where I feel that you are wrong because there are a lot of cars out there with better turbocharged engines imho.

So which one is the best?