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      02-01-2013, 04:33 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
Do not forget that at the same time BMW offered the 1er M Coupe and M3 GTS to North America but rejected the M3 GTS due to its stripped personality against the more performance luxury orientated M3. M3 customers would not give up the M3's luxuries for that price.

Scott.. if the BMW *really* knew the US market... and trusted themselves to bring a few more radical cars this way.. they would find that this is NOT the case.

So many of BMWs decisions for the US market come from data points DECADES old..

We have no hatchbacks at all here because of the 318ti.
we have had no E46M3 CSL or E90 M3 GTS here because of the E36 M3 CSL
We had an E36 Sedan here which sold well.. but no E46 sedan was made and we got the 330i zhp.

(note that BMW changed the error of their ways with the E90 M3 which again has been popular)

this market devours everything " M " or M like.... so believe me whatever Black Series competitor they can make would sell. Actually...the fact that Mercedes *is* selling black series models here should already PATENTLY show there is a market for that sort of product here right? We need some better THINKING CAPS over at BMW AG ....


Oh... and BMW does sell tons of hatchbacks here in the US.... they just don't put their name on them.. If they didnt have a MINI badge and had a BMW badge on them they would have still sell just the same.
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      02-01-2013, 04:36 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soorena

That's the keyword. Would. Has BMW ever imported stripped out models to US to see if it sells there or not?

Porsche, Ford, Mercedes, Maserati (a lot more luxurious than M3), Jaguar, Ferrari, Audi, Lamborghini can sell their stripped out models but BMW, the company that brought the 3.0CSL in 70's, can't?
They did with the E36 M3 Lightweight. It was a massive failure from what I have read. But that was years ago. And I don't think BMW knew exactly how to market them. BMW's problem is that they think these types of cars, but they don't.
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      02-01-2013, 04:37 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
Do not forget that at the same time BMW offered the 1er M Coupe and M3 GTS to North America but rejected the M3 GTS due to its stripped personality against the more performance luxury orientated M3. M3 customers would not give up the M3's luxuries for that price.
The GTS was very underwhelming. Costing as much as a new GT3; double the price over a standard M3 for 30 more hp, no sound system, no air conditioning, no rear seats, plastic windows, crappy seats and roll bar, all of which add up to only 100lb weight savings but make the car useless on the road? $60,000 for a paltry 30hp, completely reduced utility, and only 100lbs lighter? The value is simply not there, in any way, at all.

On the other hand if BMW had offered a "CSL" type option with the GTS motor and for example a few genuine CF bits (not stick-ons a la BMW Performance) and some marginal weight loss, e.g. lighter wheels, less sound dampening, etc. for a 10-15K upcharge; myself and I'm sure quite a few others would have immediately jumped on that.

But to make a great all around daily driver completely unsuitable for the task and then only offer a tiny 30hp improvement and a few lbs off and then attempt to ask double the price.. what where they thinking?

Last edited by Goat Rodeo; 02-01-2013 at 04:45 PM.
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      02-01-2013, 04:38 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soorena View Post
That's the keyword. Would. Has BMW ever imported stripped out models to US to see if it sells there or not?

Porsche, Ford, Mercedes, Maserati (a lot more luxurious than M3), Jaguar, Ferrari, Audi, Lamborghini can sell their stripped out models but BMW, the company that brought the 3.0CSL in 70's, can't?
CHA CHING! so true!

And don't forget we now get the GTR from Nissan (not stripped out), and we also get models from Subaru and Mitsubishi (MR) ...

To answer your query,... the last example was the E36 M3 lightweight... which didnt even come here with the top motor.. so in truth.. the answer really is no.


I DARE BMW to bring some stripped out models here. especially ones under 3400 lbs.
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      02-01-2013, 04:40 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by tpipta View Post
If you want a car with surgical precision to race, you buy an M car
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      02-01-2013, 04:44 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by bimmerjph View Post
They did with the E36 M3 Lightweight. It was a massive failure from what I have read. But that was years ago. And I don't think BMW knew exactly how to market them. BMW's problem is that they think these types of cars, but they don't.

Correct. namely, by putting the correct MOTOR in it. Same as they did with the 318ti. No 325ti... no M3ti.. They were too afraid of " cannibalizing sales of the M3.

then with the E46 they didnt bring over a 4 door because they were afraid that it would take away M5 sales... somehow not realizing that a person looking at a $45,000 car and a $70,000 car really arent the same buyer.
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      02-01-2013, 04:57 PM   #29
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problem is, the S65 needs more displacement to get more power. The M154 just needs lighter internals from the SLS AMG GT and bam, 507 hp.
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      02-01-2013, 05:00 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
Do not forget that at the same time BMW offered the 1er M Coupe and M3 GTS to North America but rejected the M3 GTS due to its stripped personality against the more performance luxury orientated M3. M3 customers would not give up the M3's luxuries for that price.
Scott... The AMB Black still retains a lot of "luxury" features which is probably why the wealthy are attracted to it. Not so much for the performance side of the car but the "potential" combined with "luxury".

I agree that an M3 GTS would not be a steller seller in North America. Hardcore enthusiasts can strip an M3 for the track for the same $$$ as a GTS. If you want a luxury M3 with way more HP/TQ, just buy an M6... Speaking of... an M6 "Black" might sell well for those wanting to stand out from the regular M6 crowd!

The 1er M Coupe appeals to the "boy racer" as it is affordable and performance oriented. The M2 (should it come to N.America) would have the same appeal. The M4 is still tailored to those for whom performance outweighs luxury - but only slightly. The M6 is tailored to those that give the edge to luxury over performance - only slightly. An M6 Black would keep the luxury but up the performance and individuality (and price) to a new level!

BMW is becoming a more mainstream/affordable brand now with more emphasis on the 1er and Mini lines over the past 5-6 years. Also because they just build such great cars, more people are buying them thus diluting the exclusivity of the brand. It used to be very revered to own a BMW - now it's not quite as prestigious. Mercedes on the other hand is about 5-6 years behind and will eventually go in this direction as well - but for now, the prestige factor is higher in my opinion - only slightly. Audi still lacks character and driving dynamics but they have the VW design team producing enough of an appealing design to appeal to the sharp-suited crowd.

Audi = status > performance > luxury.
MB = luxury > status > performance.
BMW = performance > luxury > status.

I think a "Black" (or similar) edition of the M5/6 would fill the "status" void for some potential BMW customers with deep pockets.

My 2c
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      02-01-2013, 05:05 PM   #31
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Black series are truly a work of art. So much power and torque packed into the lighter car.

BMW can certainly come out with a strong response. The real question is will they? I personally don't think they will, not because they can't, but because its a sector of the market that they don't see much potential in terms of sales.

Just my opinion. I too could be wrong here.
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      02-01-2013, 05:37 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
Do not forget that at the same time BMW offered the 1er M Coupe and M3 GTS to North America but rejected the M3 GTS due to its stripped personality against the more performance luxury orientated M3. M3 customers would not give up the M3's luxuries for that price.
I'll give up Luxuries for M3 GTS or CRT! M car should be about performance not Luxury. JMO
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      02-01-2013, 05:39 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
Do not forget that at the same time BMW offered the 1er M Coupe and M3 GTS to North America but rejected the M3 GTS due to its stripped personality against the more performance luxury orientated M3. M3 customers would not give up the M3's luxuries for that price.
That's because the GTS was too expensive, it was priced into the 911 GT3 / GT3 RS territory and the lighter, lower (center of gravity) 911 was more appealing to people interested in track days. And you know what else? A GT3 is still a great street car. I was once instructed by a guy who daily drove his GT3, I got to ride in it for a few laps and its suspension and bucket seats are totally streetable. Also, taking out the back seats to fit a roll cage limited the car's appeal to those who actually spend a lot of time on the track.

People bought up all those stupid limited edition M3s we got in the US the second they were announced even though those cars had almost no meaningful hardware changes (Lime Rock Park Edition, I'm looking at you) so I think it's obvious that an F80-based M3 CSL which is significantly lighter, more powerful, with better brakes and more track-focused suspension would sell well if it was around $100,000 in the US. You don't have to throw out the interior, either, just give us a pair of bucket seats up front and offer the option to have the rear seats replaced by a roll cage for those customers who want it and don't bother limiting production, seats are critical and in the US we always get screwed because of our overprotective government regulations, but Porsche offers great buckets in the GT3 so I see no reason why we shouldn't be able to get them in an M3 CSL (or maybe even as options on the regular M3).

Last edited by Remonster; 02-01-2013 at 07:04 PM.
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      02-01-2013, 06:07 PM   #34
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BMW has no balls and no interest. The argument that US won't want to "lose luxury" is such BS, I wonder who at BMW does the NA market research. How can't M3 CSL/GTS/CRT sell in NA if it is one of the largest BMW M markets?

Anyway way, BMW has to bring a final M3 CSL/CRT/GTR what ever they call it, even if overpriced, because the first and last V8 powered M3 must be celebrated. Unfortunately they did not do that with the previous M5/M6 which is one of the best engines BMW ever built.
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      02-01-2013, 06:11 PM   #35
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The Mercedes with its flared wheel arches looks silly and flamboyant. It's a comedy car, a machine conceived, designed and built just to make you smile.

Like I said at the start of this piece, then, these cars are very different. The BMW is a bit like the McLaren MP4-12C. It's fantastically capable, but a bit clinical. It's pure engineering from a company that understands the need for balance. It even has a clutch of horsepower that can be used. Rather than an extra hundred or so which cannot. It is brilliant.

There's another reason, too. The standard BMW M3 is already so brilliant, it seems a bit silly to spend twice as much on a car that is not, by any stretch of the imagination, twice as good.

With Mercedes, things are different. The standard C63 is not especially noteworthy, which means it is worth paying extra for the Black. Which is."


Above are Jeremy Clarkson's words on Top Gear's head to head in the C63 AMG Black and M3 GTS. I think the standard ///3 in whatever shape or form has every single ///3 DNA and a very successful road and track care recipe. Is there room for improvement ... may be. Are these improvements useable on a daily basis ... it's subjective.

People with deep pockets and collectors will buy one ... because they must have one.

I don't think there would be a real business case for the black series competitor. The only business case I can think of is, BMW wants to bump the numbers up as the E9x series comes to a hallow end of a very successful run. The E9x ///3 has been the most successful in terms of sales in the history of /// given the series V8 engine. We might not see a NA engine from BMW may be at least for a decade an a half as BMW may look to recover R&D cost through the installation on various upcoming /// series.

I am better off with money in my pocket than in the BMW Bank. I think BMW will really struggle to get the proposed car out of the showroom doors unless it can produce a really unique and standout car over the standard one at a very competitive price.

I think my money is on a standard ///3 with all the creature comfort but with uprated engine from GTS/CRT from Europe. This will be the so called "special edition". I don't think BMW will waste time and money on getting compliance in the US with a stripped down version. That will make the car more expensive.

BMW will test the market with the E9x /// before considering a similar line up with ///5 and ///6.
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      02-01-2013, 06:18 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Remonster View Post
That's because the GTS was too expensive, it was priced into the 911 GT3 / GT3 RS territory and the lighter, lower, 911 was more appealing to people interested in track days. Also, taking out the back seats to fit a roll cage limited the car's appeal to those who actually spend a lot of time on the track.

People bought up all those stupid limited edition M3s we got in the US the second they were announced even though those cars had almost no meaningful hardware changes (Lime Rock Park Edition, I'm looking at you) so I think it's obvious that an F80-based M3 CSL which is significantly lighter, more powerful, with better brakes and more track-focused suspension would sell well if it was around $100,000 in the US. You don't have to throw out the interior, either, just give us a pair of bucket seats up front and offer the option to have the rear seats replaced by a roll cage for those customers who want it and don't bother limiting production, seats are critical and in the US we always get screwed because of our overprotective government regulations, but Porsche offers great buckets in the GT3 so I see no reason why we shouldn't be able to get them in an M3 CSL (or maybe even as options on the regular M3).
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      02-01-2013, 06:54 PM   #37
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I bought a stripped down 1M and paid a premium price for a back to basics car. BMW brings more options like that over and they'll sell. It's not like it's their halo car anyway so even if they're not cleaning house on profit margins, at least it will keep BMW on the map in terms of offering something for everyone.

It would be interesting to see who tracks their cars the most in different world markets. I'd say we do a lot of that here in The States which would make sense to offer more track oriented options IMO.
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      02-01-2013, 07:23 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b33g33 View Post
If you want a car with surgical precision to race, you buy a GT3 RS 4.0

I think the M's fit somewhere in between the loud and gnarly AMGs and the scalpel precise P-cars.

Agree 100%
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      02-01-2013, 07:56 PM   #39
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Curve Ball? ...1M CLS?
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      02-01-2013, 08:10 PM   #40
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M officials may want a Black series competitor, but the BMW Board has final decision, right? And they've overruled M Division's wishes before, right? There has to be a business case...
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      02-01-2013, 09:02 PM   #41
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Curve Ball? ...1M CLS?
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      02-01-2013, 10:18 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tpipta
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3s-a-charm View Post
Would take a lot of M3 tweaking to compete with the AMG Black, no?
There so different cars. Black series cars are crazy powerful and torquey, but lack the finesse of an M car. If you want to do crazy burnouts, go get any AMG or Black series MB. If you want a car with surgical precision to race, you buy an M car.

Frankly, I hope BMW stays away from that market space.

Cheers,
Tony
But wouldn't it depend on the driver i always hear bmw drivers with this nonsense bmw m3 will beat it on the track yes a professional but idk half of the people on the forum can beat an c63 on the track both are amazing cars but the driver have to put in work
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      02-02-2013, 04:02 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi View Post
Anyway way, BMW has to bring a final M3 CSL/CRT/GTR what ever they call it, even if overpriced, because the first and last V8 powered M3 must be celebrated. Unfortunately they did not do that with the previous M5/M6 which is one of the best engines BMW ever built.
Okay, if they has balls, not is easier than this ... simple something like the 1M in the M3 range ... bring the "lightweight" F80M3 carbody, which developement should be finished ... put the complete E90M3 drivetrain - S65+M-DKG+LSD in (plus CRT seats?) and sell it with an very limited option list at 100cars per month until the M4 arives with the new engine and the M3 also get this new engine ... so you get an limited M3 Concept - Sport -Lightweight !!!

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      02-02-2013, 04:03 AM   #44
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BMW should focus on the M4 so that they could deliver a competitive platform vs AMG Black series.
I'd do a limited edition (cause that's the BMW politic today) M4 with a tuned up Twin turbo V8 from the M5/M6, shave some weight, rollcage, 2 seats and suspension/brake package. This is how I see the AMG competitor. Opinions?!
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