BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > BIMMERPOST Universal Forums > Off-Topic Discussions Board > Politics/Religion
 
ESS Tuning
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      08-27-2007, 07:52 AM   #133
hks786
Major General
United Kingdom
827

 
Drives: *
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK


Posts: 5,351
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ets335
Jesus is the Son of God. So that means he is full man and full God at the same time. Some of you say how can that be? Well lets say Jesus is God, but came to earth and is now limited to what we are limited to which is time, space, death, etc. But when he thinks and talks it is about Heavenly things.
Well, firstly my problem with it goes back to the Gospels. We have to believe it because the Gospels say it and I have shown beyond doubt that a) they werent intended to be part of a Bible b) there are other writings which were kept out the Bible and burnt c) even the 4 Gospels we have disagree about events and sayings of Jesus (AS) d) the Gospels reduce Jesus (AS)'s original teachings and increase in Paul's

The second problem is that it is completely illogical as I have explained. I still feel that noone in this thread has fully explained how anyone can be man and God at the same time. God created these parameters, not me. I have even asked many questions that noone have yet answered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ets335
About Jesus dying...God is a fair God. Now he must punish wrong so that the truth wins out. In the days of old people would sacrifice pure lambs so that God would punish our sins through the lamb and not us. So the lambs take our place on the sacrificing table. Now Jesus is the ultimate sacrifice in that he has taken all ours upon himself on a humiliating platform so that we will never have to sacrifice anything again. So now all we have to do ask for forgiveness.
From the Bible and Quran, I learn that we dont need to make sacrifices to earn forgiveness. If we are paying a price, there is no forgiveness. Allah also says in the Quran that if we sin it only hurts us, not God. Moreover, the Bible through Jesus (AS)'s parables, teach us that forgiveness can be gained WITHOUT sacrifice!

Some people say that we need Jesus (AS) as a sacrifice to create a relationship with us and God. However, I dont think this is true. I think God of his own will can choose to forgive us when we turn to him. Is that not a beautiful relationship? I know I feel happy knowing that I can turn to God and that he listens to me repenting. That my friend, is love for your creation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ets335
Just read the last page and yes there are later additions to the New Testament. I read a doctoral theory on how the term "Son of Man" was added by the early church and that was very interesting. Your points are very valid and I a plod you for your research, because I know I have not taken the time to do that.
Thanks bro.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ets335
But I still so see some truth. Even looking at Paul's writings, he is trying to make it know to the people that Jesus was the Messiah and was the man that all the Jews were looking for. He makes and strong case for that in the book of Romans. Yes the Gospels were "intended" to be records of the what Jesus did but we all tell stories differently. If we both saw a car crash we would probably use different words to describe what we saw.
Well, I'm afraid I see it a little differently. The fact is that we might describe it in different languages or dialect to communicate to our own family/people, but the structure of events will be the same. Also, I feel that it is worrying that John has statements made by Jesus (AS) that claim divinity. We only find these in his Gospel. If anything, I should think that we find it in the Gospel closest to the "crucifixion" which would be Mark. Although, Mark was written 20 years after the event and some people think later. These statements are very striking and it puzzles me that we only find it in John...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ets335
For me, not saying that you have to believe it too, That concept that Paul and the Gospels bring make me to believe that yes God is the all powerful, but yes Jesus has something to do with it too. And from Paul Jesus is the Messiah we were looking for so if you connect the Old Testament expectations and what Paul is saying, you come up with the divine Jesus.
I'll try explain why I find it hard to trust Paul:

Paul claimed to have a "vision" of Jesus (AS). He then infiltrated the early Christian community and had major disagreements with Jesus (AS)'s followers. He claimed to know better than those who met Jesus (AS) and were his close companions. Here's just a few examples. If you make a simple google search, you will find much conflict between Jesus (AS) and Paul.

James, the half-brother and disciple of Jesus (AS) says:

"You will be doing the right thing if you obey the law of the Kingdom, which is found in scripture."
James (2:8)


Paul says:

"No longer do we serve in the old ways of a written law, but in the new way of a spirit."
Romans (7:5)


James says:

"It is by his actions that a person is put right with God and not by his faith alone"
James (2:24)


Paul says:

"For we conclude that person is put right with God only through faith and not by doing what the Law commands."
Romans (3:28)


James mentions nothing of Salvation through Jesus (AS)'s "ressurection" but only Salvation through belief in God (who sent) Jesus and doing right action to be judged righteous by God and forgiven our sins. But Paul says:

"Because of our sins he (Jesus) was given over to die, and he was raised to life in order to put us right with God."
Romans (4:25)


Paul then speaks with assumed authority because of this "vision" and changed Jesus (AS)'s nature, history and teachings to make it fit more with Roman pagan religions. He justifies it by saying: "I shall be all things to all men". He makes Jesus (AS) have similar attributes that Romans venerated and made Jesus (AS) a sacrifice for sin like the Roman God Mithras. He became the "Son of God" like the Roman Emperor and Hercules.

However, in the early manuscript "the Didache", Jesus is described as the "Servant of God". Romans didnt even have to stop eating pork or be circumcised. However, if we recall in the Bible, God says he has created circumcision as an "everlasting covenant" and whoever doesnt do it breaks the scriptures. You will notice that "everlasting" means forever, not just a covenant. He changed this so that non-Jewish pagans would be attracted to Christianity, and it worked. His false teachings are spread throughout 50% of the New Testament. This worries me indeed...
__________________

Last edited by hks786; 08-27-2007 at 11:20 AM.
Appreciate 0
      08-27-2007, 07:52 AM   #134
hks786
Major General
United Kingdom
827

 
Drives: *
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK


Posts: 5,351
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray33 View Post
?
__________________
Appreciate 0
      08-27-2007, 11:02 AM   #135
its ray den
Second Lieutenant
2

 
Drives: 2004 Mazda6s
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: NY


Posts: 207
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
The second problem is that it is completely illogical as I have explained. I still feel that noone in this thread has fully explained how anyone can be man and God at the same time. God created these parameters, not me. I have even asked many questions that noone have yet answered.
i'll give this one a shot with a scientific example.

take light. scientist have observed that light behaves as both a particle, and a wave. usually, things are either one or the other but not both. how can scientist reconcile this? they really can't but since they observe the behavior of both particle and wave in light photons, they just accept it as being both.

in the case of Jesus, He exhibited the behavior of being a man, in the He gets hungry, tired and even bleeds and dies. but at the same time, He exhibits characteristics of being God as well, walking on water, having authority over demons, healing the sick, resurrecting the dead and even being resurrected himself.

how can christians explain this in a way everyone can understand without presuppositions? they can't. but we believe He was both God and man because of who He is and what He's done.

i hope that helps.
Appreciate 0
      08-27-2007, 11:10 AM   #136
hks786
Major General
United Kingdom
827

 
Drives: *
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK


Posts: 5,351
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by its ray den View Post
i'll give this one a shot with a scientific example.

take light. scientist have observed that light behaves as both a particle, and a wave. usually, things are either one or the other but not both. how can scientist reconcile this? they really can't but since they observe the behavior of both particle and wave in light photons, they just accept it as being both.

in the case of Jesus, He exhibited the behavior of being a man, in the He gets hungry, tired and even bleeds and dies. but at the same time, He exhibits characteristics of being God as well, walking on water, having authority over demons, healing the sick, resurrecting the dead and even being resurrected himself.

how can christians explain this in a way everyone can understand without presuppositions? they can't. but we believe He was both God and man because of who He is and what He's done.

i hope that helps.
Aha, nice example. I know of it myself since I have studied physics. Anyway, I'm not so sure that it's a good example. Here's why...

Firstly, I have established the fact that the root of the problem goes all the way back to the question "Do we really have Jesus (AS)'s true teachings with us today?" I think the answer is yes and no. Perhaps some of it is still in the Bible today but looking at the history of the compilation (as I have done) we can see a weak case in believing what Paul tried to make us believe...

Also, to back this up, I have shown how it is illogical to be man and God at the same time. The differences are there because of the parameters God created. Infinite and finite beings are very much seperate entities. Here's just ONE of the problems that arises:

If Jesus (AS) gave up his power on the cross, it means that 1/3 of the trinity doesnt have power. How can we then say that God is all-powerful? it suggests that God is only 2/3 powerfull.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      08-27-2007, 11:31 AM   #137
its ray den
Second Lieutenant
2

 
Drives: 2004 Mazda6s
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: NY


Posts: 207
iTrader: (0)

like i said hks, without presuppositions, it's difficult to understand.

presuppositions is the backbone to our belief system, regardless of what it is in. religion, science, society. if we don't have the same presuppositions, we can't say what is illogical and what is logical. we just have different rules. if you don't believe that the bible is truth, then there's no point in going further into theology. just the same, i do not believe the Quran is the truth, therefore i find it difficult to see your logic as logical.

here's my puny attempt at explaining the trinity. this one's a doozy. all i know is what the trinity is and what it isn't. i'm not sure if i could make it make any sense whatsoever, especially with our different presuppositions, but here we go.

it is wrong to believe that the 3 parts or the trinity, God the Father, God the Son (Jesus) and God the Holy Spirit are 3 distinct personas grouped together to form 1 God. so, hks, your idea of Jesus being 1/3 of God and dying, making the living God only 2/3 complete doesn't make sense to us christians.

yes it's true, all 3 parts seem to have different personas and roles, but there is never any real distinction made in the bible. unfortunately the bible doesn't go into detail about the trinity, neither is the word trinity even used. but there are several verses out there that can be used to deduce that the 3 parts are still 1 person. the english statement, "The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit is God." would be grammatically incorrect, but theologically correct, since the 3 is still singular.

anyway, this site can explain it better, with scriptural references to boot.

http://www.carm.org/dictionary/dic_t.htm#_1_190
Appreciate 0
      08-27-2007, 01:08 PM   #138
ets335
Private First Class
9

 
ets335's Avatar
 
Drives: e90 335i
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: San Francisco


Posts: 154
iTrader: (2)

I know the trinity is actually very confusing. I am also confused at this and I think Ray Den does make a great statement in saying you can't really understand it with coming with assumptions or a bias. But I will say this, nowhere in the bible is the actual word "trinity" anywhere. I have heard that that was also a later addition to the Bible.

In defense of the Bible, you have to understand that many people wanted to not see "Christianity" succeed. So we have people who burnt books and letters when they were found. On the flip side we have people who were so radical about their belief that they added things in.

So anyways, your comments about Romans and James.

Quote:
"You will be doing the right thing if you obey the law of the Kingdom, which is found in scripture."
James (2:8)

Paul says:

"No longer do we serve in the old ways of a written law, but in the new way of a spirit."
Romans (7:5)

James says:

"It is by his actions that a person is put right with God and not by his faith alone"
James (2:24)

Paul says:

"For we conclude that person is put right with God only through faith and not by doing what the Law commands."
Romans (3:28)
All of this refers to this story:
Matthew 22:36-40 36 "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37 Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

Here Jesus was being trapped by the Pharisees and they thought they had him. But actually if you look at the Ten Commandments, you don't need to do them if you have these two commandments which is love. So in both James and Romans, they are referring to this passage and telling people to stop being so stuck on the rules. Just do this.

Also people back then starting forgetting why they even got the Ten Commandments in the first place. They followed these laws without even loving God and understanding the significance of the law. They were built as guidelines so that we should we would love each other. People believed in God without really changing their attitude and behavior. It's like Christians you meet today and they are the rudist people in the world. Your like what the Hell got into you! I was just eating! That's the type of people they were talking about. Having God in your heart is not about just a belief, but an attitude and way of life.

I think we should note the audience these guys were righting to and to what they were actually talking about. Romans was written to Rome and the scholars there trying to get them to believe that Jesus was the atonement for sins. They had people stuck on the commandments and stuck in old law. So he wrote these things about Jesus' Messianic Being and Divinity.

Romans 6:23b "...But the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Romans 5:8, "God demonstrates His own love for us, in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us!"

Romans 10:9,10 "...If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead, you shall be saved; for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."

Oh and I don't know much about the Quran, but is there a Heaven and Hell in there? I ask because God punishes sin and rewards those that love him. But if everyone is going to heaven (according to the Quran) then why do we even need to believe in Allah? I feel like its not fair for someone like you who has all this knowledge, but the reward seems so little. I would think that God would be fair and have justice.

Also
Quote:
However, if we recall in the Bible, God says he has created circumcision as an "everlasting covenant" and whoever doesnt do it breaks the scriptures. You will notice that "everlasting" means forever, not just a covenant.
God has gone back on his word before. If you look at the story of Noah...
Genesis 6:5-8 5 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. 6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. 7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth-- men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air-- for I am grieved that I have made them." 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.

God said that his creation sucked and he wanted to start all over. But Noah found favor in God's eyes. So has God gone back on what he says? Yes. So I know God's love is not limited and wanted everyone to go to him. But will not push away anyone just because they are not Jewish or circumsied. So traditionally Gentiles could not receive God's love, but after Jesus died we are now able to.
Appreciate 0
      08-27-2007, 03:10 PM   #139
Noize
Under the radar
United_States
31

 
Noize's Avatar
 
Drives: FWD in reverse
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In traffic at idle


Posts: 841
iTrader: (1)

hks-

Why do you write "(AS)" after Jesus? I don't understand that?
Appreciate 0
      08-27-2007, 03:49 PM   #140
Noize
Under the radar
United_States
31

 
Noize's Avatar
 
Drives: FWD in reverse
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In traffic at idle


Posts: 841
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by hks786 View Post

If Jesus (AS) gave up his power on the cross, it means that 1/3 of the trinity doesnt have power. How can we then say that God is all-powerful? it suggests that God is only 2/3 powerfull.

Dude, this is really reaching. I feel you are iron clad in your defense, but the examples you're offering to attempt to disprove Christianity are wafer thin.

If you have even a basic understanding of physics, you should understand kinetic and potential energy. To "give up" is also to "submit".

Also this physical thing where you are demanding explanation over and over and over about how God could be man and God. Can you explain how God created the heavens and the Earth? Can you explain how God created man? Can you explain how God PHYSICALLY was able to breathe life into man from the dust of the ground? How God made Eve from a rib of Adam?

How hks? You can't because you cannot understand the extent of what God can do. When you say Jesus cannot be man and God at the same time, you're doing what you have done this entire thread: You are limiting God.

We will have differences and questions on both sides, but you seem to apply only science against Christianity and only faith toward Islam.
Appreciate 0
      08-27-2007, 03:50 PM   #141
hks786
Major General
United Kingdom
827

 
Drives: *
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK


Posts: 5,351
iTrader: (0)

wow, a lot to reply to. I might need to reply to both of you tomorrow...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noize View Post
hks-

Why do you write "(AS)" after Jesus? I don't understand that?
Sorry, when we muslims say a Prophets name we say "aleyhi salaam" after it. It means: "May God bless him and grant him peace."
__________________
Appreciate 0
      08-27-2007, 05:00 PM   #142
its ray den
Second Lieutenant
2

 
Drives: 2004 Mazda6s
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: NY


Posts: 207
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by hks786 View Post
wow, a lot to reply to. I might need to reply to both of you tomorrow...



Sorry, when we muslims say a Prophets name we say "aleyhi salaam" after it. It means: "May God bless him and grant him peace."
i see. so what to the others mean? i've seen SAW, ISA.. etc.
Appreciate 0
      08-27-2007, 05:17 PM   #143
hks786
Major General
United Kingdom
827

 
Drives: *
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK


Posts: 5,351
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by its ray den View Post
i see. so what to the others mean? i've seen SAW, ISA.. etc.
(SAW) is what we say after our Holy Prophet (SAW)'s name. It's basically just the same thing.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      08-28-2007, 05:37 PM   #144
UncleWede
Long Time Admirer, First Time Owner
United_States
82

 
UncleWede's Avatar
 
Drives: E90 325i Arctic
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Oxnard, CA


Posts: 2,364
iTrader: (0)

HK, I'm still unclear regarding the significance of Quran vs. Hadith, but I beleive along the way in our discussions you mentioned that many of the original hadiths were removed because they clashed with the Quran, and that just isn't allowable, so those distracting hadiths were removed. Did I get that correct?

Also, if it took Allah 20+ years to communicate to Muhamed, and then LATER his oral version was committed to written form, why is it so unheard of that the Gospels could be written 20, 30, or even 50 years after the crucifixion? Could we not have an oral tradition that become so important someone decided to write it down?

Maybe you might provide (to those of us who are under-read) some of the details of Isa's teachings from an Islamic POV vs. what you understand to be Jesus' teachings as revealed via the bible? show some discrepencies between the two teachings that we might discuss?

I think that example of light being a particle and a wave, with VERY distinct properties and actions within the world, is an excellent way to prove that our "science" is as limited as our understanding of God's actions in the world. And which has changed more, science or the bible?
Appreciate 0
      08-28-2007, 09:31 PM   #145
Noize
Under the radar
United_States
31

 
Noize's Avatar
 
Drives: FWD in reverse
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In traffic at idle


Posts: 841
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
HK, I'm still unclear regarding the significance of Quran vs. Hadith, but I beleive along the way in our discussions you mentioned that many of the original hadiths were removed because they clashed with the Quran, and that just isn't allowable, so those distracting hadiths were removed. Did I get that correct?
The Quran were words of Muhammad.
The hadith are words recorded by others that were close to Muhammad about him- including some of his wives, and other people in Muhammad's life. Some hadith are only a few words, others are substantially longer. There are thousands of hadith.
Appreciate 0
      08-29-2007, 08:18 AM   #146
hks786
Major General
United Kingdom
827

 
Drives: *
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK


Posts: 5,351
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by its ray den
it is wrong to believe that the 3 parts or the trinity, God the Father, God the Son (Jesus) and God the Holy Spirit are 3 distinct personas grouped together to form 1 God. so, hks, your idea of Jesus being 1/3 of God and dying, making the living God only 2/3 complete doesn't make sense to us christians.
Aha, then this is where we differ. Many Christians tell me that Jesus has the same authority etc as God the Father because they are part of the same being. If we look at it simply, then yes, maybe we could assume that. You would think that if anything was a part of God, it would have the same authority as any other part of God.

However, I don’t think it is true that Jesus is equal to the Father. Look at some quotes from the Bible:

My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all… Luke (10:29)

"...I say unto you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." John (5:9)

"I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just: because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me." John (5:30)


So I guess we see from here that the Son isn’t equal to the Father. However, if God has Supreme-Authority, how can we say that some part of God has less authority than another? This also leads to something else. How can Jesus say these things AND be God? It makes no sense at all. He is not God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by its ray den
anyway, this site can explain it better, with scriptural references to boot.
Actually this site is quite confusing to me. Let’s look at what it says:

God is not one person who took three forms, i.e., the Father who became the Son…

I was under the impression that God did take 3 forms. You see, Christians ALWAYS tell me that God loved us and put himself in flesh. Well, that means that God wasn’t always in human form and did it only to give us salvation.

The person of the Son is not the same person as the Holy Spirit. The person of the Holy Spirit is not the same person as the Father. If you take away any one, there is no God.

So what happened when Jesus “died”? This is what I’m trying to say. If Jesus died there is no God. But since there IS a God, Jesus couldn’t possibly have been God.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      08-29-2007, 08:23 AM   #147
hks786
Major General
United Kingdom
827

 
Drives: *
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK


Posts: 5,351
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ets335
I know the trinity is actually very confusing. I am also confused at this and I think Ray Den does make a great statement in saying you can't really understand it with coming with assumptions or a bias. But I will say this, nowhere in the bible is the actual word "trinity" anywhere. I have heard that that was also a later addition to the Bible.
Yeah it was a later addition. Infact there has been so many additions including the title “Son of God” being added to certain places in the Bible later. Also, we have to face the reality of the heightening of Jesus (AS) position from man to God as we progress through the Gospels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ets335
In defense of the Bible, you have to understand that many people wanted to not see "Christianity" succeed. So we have people who burnt books and letters when they were found. On the flip side we have people who were so radical about their belief that they added things in.
Sorry I wasn’t clear, but I wasn’t talking about non-Christians burning books. I was talking about Christians burning books because they didn’t agree with what Paul said. I’m not so sure that all the burnt books and banned books were radical. They just didn’t agree with what Paul was teaching. You see, one example is the Gospel of Thomas. It only has Jesus’ sayings in it, but it was banned because it didn’t mention the “crucifixion” etc.

Whether these burnt/banned books were 100% true is irrelevant. The fact is that there could be lots of truth in them especially if they contain the words of Jesus (AS). I guess we’ll never know now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ets335
All of this refers to this story:
Matthew 22:36-40 36 "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37 Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
It’s quite ironic that you quoted Matthew on this. Matthew here has actually missed out a HUGE part of what Jesus (AS) actually said. Here’s what Mark said:

“The first is, 'Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is one; you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength."

So I’m sure it’s quite clear that Matthew has skipped straight to the love part. Thus, he was not giving Jesus (AS)’s true words. Think of it this way. If Jesus (AS) was giving words about the GREATEST COMMANDMENT, you’d think Matthew would have his first words about the oneness of God, if not ALL of what he said. It’s quite strange since Matthew clearly copies huge parts of Mark’s Gospel, it brings the question why didn’t he copy this?

Anyway, back to the point. Yes “all the Law and the Prophets” are dependant on these two commandments, but does it mean they are the ONLY commandments? I would say Islam depends on the oneness of Allah. But is it the only commandment we should follow? Evidently not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ets335
Also people back then starting forgetting why they even got the Ten Commandments in the first place. They followed these laws without even loving God and understanding the significance of the law. They were built as guidelines so that we should we would love each other. People believed in God without really changing their attitude and behavior.
I’ve heard this argument before friend, I’ll try explain why it’s weak to me. You clearly admitted that the commandments were there to help us love eachother. Okay. I agree with that. It guides humanity in such a way that we work together in perfect harmony and do not have conflict among us. That’s my extension to that.

Now, I don’t think that we need to cancel these commandments or infact SHOULD, just because people forget why we do them. That’s what Prophets are there for. To remind us of the law and what it is there for. How can the cancelling the commandments bring about love if they were put there to bring love in the first place?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ets335
I think we should note the audience these guys were righting to and to what they were actually talking about. Romans was written to Rome and the scholars there trying to get them to believe that Jesus was the atonement for sins. They had people stuck on the commandments and stuck in old law. So he wrote these things about Jesus' Messianic Being and Divinity.
That’s exactly my point. Paul “Romanised” Christianity to make it appeal to Pagans. The fact is that what Paul was presenting them was VERY easy to accept and see “truth” in it. Also, I’m not going to get into sun worship, easter, etc. That discussion is far too long.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ets335
Oh and I don't know much about the Quran, but is there a Heaven and Hell in there? I ask because God punishes sin and rewards those that love him. But if everyone is going to heaven (according to the Quran) then why do we even need to believe in Allah? I feel like its not fair for someone like you who has all this knowledge, but the reward seems so little. I would think that God would be fair and have justice.
Does the reward seem so little? Infact, I find that the Quran shows how just Allah is. Please note my friend that being just isn’t jus about being merciful. Infact, if being just was ONLY about mercy, then therein is actually a contradiction. Anyway, let’s look at it.

Firstly, Allah has said in the Quran that the Hell fire will be empty when a camel passes through the eye of a needle. Jesus (AS) even spoke these words! Anyway, this doesn’t mean that we will all receive the same reward when we are in heaven. Even if it did, shouldn’t you rejoice that your fellow brothers are joining you in Heaven? Jesus infact told a parable of a son who comes back to his father after leaving and the father shows more compassion to the Son who returns over the one who was always loyal!

Also, you should note that there are 7 levels of Heaven. The reward you receive is dependant on what you do in this life. Allah has made it clear that there are certain rewards for certain good acts. Some people will have the best reward and some people will earn heaven by having the minimum to earn it.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      08-29-2007, 08:29 AM   #148
hks786
Major General
United Kingdom
827

 
Drives: *
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK


Posts: 5,351
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noize
If you have even a basic understanding of physics, you should understand kinetic and potential energy. To "give up" is also to "submit".
I have my understanding of physics, but God cannot be defined or explained by physics concepts. Let me explain:

Physics gives us laws of motion etc. It also tells us that you cannot achieve a higher speed than that of light (although I just seen an article about German scientists who think they can do it). Does God obey this principle? Of course not. Does he obey gravity? Of course not. Physics is a finite concept on the whole.

Infact, so is mathematics. However, we have to look at simple maths when considering God. There is a reason for it. If you’ll recall this verse from the Bible:

“The first is, 'Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is one; you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength."

Even saying that God is one is using simple mathematics. Infact, if we then go on to explain Trinitarian beliefs, we use slightly more complicated mathematics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noize
Can you explain how God created the heavens and the Earth? Can you explain how God created man? Can you explain how God PHYSICALLY was able to breathe life into man from the dust of the ground? How God made Eve from a rib of Adam?
Firstly, the Quran actually does explain how the heaven and universe were once a single entity but Allah split them. So yes, according to my beliefs I can explain it. Can I explain how God created man? Infact yes the Quran deals with that too. Can I explain how God physically was able to breathe life into man from the dust of the ground? No. If that was such a verse in the Quran, it could be metaphoric. The reason is that Allah speaks of himself having hands etc but he doesn’t literally mean having a physical hand. But I can prove that we are created of dust.

Anyway, since you highlighted the word “physically”, it is obvious that this is what your argument was about. I feel we misunderstand eachother. The Bible makes it clear that Jesus (being God) did physically eat, sleep and weep when he was sad. This is not metaphoric like the above reference about breathing dust.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noize
Jesus cannot be man and God at the same time, you're doing what you have done this entire thread: You are limiting God.
That’s not infact what I’m doing. I just watched a video on Youtube saying that God can do all things. So when Muslims say he cant become man, we are limiting him. How ironic, because Christians then go on to say that Jesus chose to limit himself. This is impossible. God can’t choose to NOT be all-powerful. Christians also say that Jesus chose to limit his knowledge. I ask out of respect my friend; can God choose to give up his own knowledge? Of course not.

But look at the Bible and what it says about the Day of Judgement:

""But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone."
Mark (13:32)


Can God or any part of God (again, presupposing he has parts) choose to forget anything? Of course not. How can God literally choose to not have information? In the first chapter of the Quran Allah calls himself "Master of the Day of Judgement".

Christians might argue that Jesus here is saying from his human side that he doesnt know when the last day is. This firstly, presupposes that he can be God/Man at the same time. However, would a man ask another man when the last day is? Of course not. So according the CHRISTIAN theology, they must have been addressing him as God. But I'm sure you can understand the implications of God NOT being omniscient. However, if you say he was addressed as a human, then I would ask what human would you ask of such a thing? Clearly only a Prophet of God, which we muslims believe Jesus (AS) was. Also, we can find a similar verse in the Quran of Mark 13:32. Look:

"Verily, Allah is He with Whom is the knowledge of the Hour..." Qur'an (31:34)

"Master of the Day of Judgment." Quran (1:4)

And here's one verse from the Quran where Jesus (AS) tells people to believe only in one God, thus saying he isnt God:

"They do blaspheme who say: "God is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship God, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with God,- God will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help."
Quran (5:72)


Look at it this way. Can God limit himself by first making a rock and then it being so heavy he cant move it? No. Of course not. It is outwith God’s nature to limit himself in the SAME way that it is out of his nature to be bad. If I asked a Muslim OR Christian “Can God lie?” they would say no.

Furthermore, since God is infinite, eternal etc. Then all parts of him must share the same nature. How can part of God have a different nature from another? That's presupposing that God even has different parts, but nevertheless look at the below verses. Jesus (AS) clearly showed that he is a Prophet and has a different nature/being/status than that of God, and cannot be part of him (if he even has different parts):

My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all… Luke (10:29)

"...I say unto you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." John (5:9)

"I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just: because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me." John (5:30)
__________________

Last edited by hks786; 08-29-2007 at 10:19 AM.
Appreciate 0
      08-29-2007, 08:30 AM   #149
hks786
Major General
United Kingdom
827

 
Drives: *
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK


Posts: 5,351
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede
HK, I'm still unclear regarding the significance of Quran vs. Hadith, but I beleive along the way in our discussions you mentioned that many of the original hadiths were removed because they clashed with the Quran, and that just isn't allowable, so those distracting hadiths were removed. Did I get that correct?
Yep that’s correct. The reason is that some Hadiths were altered in their oral transmission etc. That’s why we only accept ones that have a full, strong chain of narration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede
Also, if it took Allah 20+ years to communicate to Muhamed, and then LATER his oral version was committed to written form, why is it so unheard of that the Gospels could be written 20, 30, or even 50 years after the crucifixion? Could we not have an oral tradition that become so important someone decided to write it down?
I’m sorry but the way you put that is your first mistake. “it TOOK Allah 20+ years”. That’s not true. He chose to reveal it over time. The reason is that if he gave the revelation complete, people might not accept it. Through his own wisdom, Allah chose to reveal verses according to the people’s needs.

Let me answer your question though. Firstly, the Quran has always been learnt orally by heart. I ask you friend, to bring me two Muslims that recite the Quran orally but recite it differently. By “different” I don’t mean dialect, I mean words that have COMPLETELY different meanings. That is my challenge to you.

The fact is that the Bible does not have this. The Bible wasn’t learnt by heart to preserve it. The Bible isnt even a book; it's a compilation of books that were chosen through means of divination etc. Also, I have shown that copyists made many errors and later insertions that could imply hidden motives. These complaints go back to the 1st Century. Infact, even Dionysius complained of Christians own corruption when they changed his own words. He said: “When my fellow Christians asked me to write letters to them, I did so, but these devil’s apostles have filled it with many tares. Small wonder is it what they have done to the word of the Lord if they can mutilate my own humble efforts.” This is what separates the Quran from the Bible.

Moreover, I have shown from independent sources (non-muslim) that both the oral and written transmission protects the Quran from having even innocent mistakes. I then went on to show a simple mathematical miracle within the Quran itself, showing the complex relationship between Chapters and the verses therein. Look how intricate it is:



Here’s another below. The graph actually looks like "Allah" written in arabic:



Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede
Maybe you might provide (to those of us who are under-read) some of the details of Isa's teachings from an Islamic POV vs. what you understand to be Jesus' teachings as revealed via the bible? show some discrepencies between the two teachings that we might discuss?
This is my very point. We have lost some/much? of his teachings. We cannot know for certain what his true teachings are, except that he taught of the same one God of Ibrahim (AS) and Musa (AS). That’s why Allah gave us the Quran. It will ALWAYS be preserved.

Quote:
I think that example of light being a particle and a wave, with VERY distinct properties and actions within the world, is an excellent way to prove that our "science" is as limited as our understanding of God's actions in the world. And which has changed more, science or the bible?
I don’t share the same belief. The reason is that we don’t NEED to know everything about science. Light being a wave or particle won’t affect us when God judges us. Not unless you say “particle” and I say “wave” and I murder you over it. Okay sorry. I’ll be serious again…

The fact is that we must be able to understand God. I don’t think God would create us with limited knowledge of his being to such an extent that we cannot understand if he is 1 or 3in1 and then expect us to worship him recognising him as one or the other. God is loving and righteous and wouldn’t leave that confusion among us. After all, I already explained that the oneness of Allah is what Islam depends on. It’s not the only thing though…

Also, If I might, I would like to add to that question: “What has changed more – science, the Bible or the Quran?”
__________________
Appreciate 0
      08-29-2007, 08:36 AM   #150
hks786
Major General
United Kingdom
827

 
Drives: *
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK


Posts: 5,351
iTrader: (0)

Sorry for the late replies. I've been busy lately and my memory isnt so good. Also, uni starts soon so I probably wont be on as much...
__________________
Appreciate 0
      08-29-2007, 09:51 AM   #151
UncleWede
Long Time Admirer, First Time Owner
United_States
82

 
UncleWede's Avatar
 
Drives: E90 325i Arctic
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Oxnard, CA


Posts: 2,364
iTrader: (0)

HK, respectfully, you jump around between science "proving" things that are conveinient to the Quran, and then if Christians try to use a bit of science it's not needed to understand Allah. I've spoken of this before, and try to make it clear when I am making a differentiation between what I beleive to be fact, and what I take on faith. I can't see that same deliniation in many of your comments.

Forgive me for not knowing if the quran contains anything similar to Genesis, but God made light and it was good. So can we not beleive by comparison that if he made us in his image and we share in the divinity of God, at least in potential, that ALL of God's creations share in his divinity, if only by the fact that he created them? then why can light not exhibit characteristics that lead us to God, reveal a bit of His nature?

God sent his ONLY son in Jesus. God used plenty of prophets before, maybe even a few after, but Jesus was his ONLY son. That is a distinct difference and clue about the nature of Jesus vs. the rest of God's children. It's a bit of a play on words, and may make much better sense in the original Aremeic.
Appreciate 0
      08-29-2007, 09:54 AM   #152
UncleWede
Long Time Admirer, First Time Owner
United_States
82

 
UncleWede's Avatar
 
Drives: E90 325i Arctic
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Oxnard, CA


Posts: 2,364
iTrader: (0)

So in a sense, Jesus being God's ONLY Son, as opposed to the children of God, being like man in all things except sin, Jesus is a unique, single, special creation of God. How does that make him illogical, or any less Godly?
Appreciate 0
      08-29-2007, 10:01 AM   #153
its ray den
Second Lieutenant
2

 
Drives: 2004 Mazda6s
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: NY


Posts: 207
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all… Luke (10:29)
This verse is actually John 10:29 and the whole "paragraph" is this:

25Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[d]; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one."


as is common with people trying to use the bible against christian theology, it is always taken in bits and pieces and out of context.

as you can see, no where in those verses does Jesus explicitly claim that God the Father is greater than Himself. and you can't even infer that idea after you read verse 30.

Quote:
"...I say unto you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." John (5:9)

"I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just: because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me." John (5:30)
the first verse you quote is actually verse 19, and since verse 30 is part of the same section, here it is in whole:

Life Through the Son

16So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jews persecuted him. 17Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working." 18For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

19Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. 20For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, to your amazement he will show him even greater things than these. 21For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. 22Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

24"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. 25I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. 27And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.

28"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come out—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned. 30By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.


to put this passage in context, the pharisees were trying to trap Jesus by accusing Him of working on the Sabbath because Jesus was healing people. so Jesus' response to them was that the pharisees can't accuse him for doing what His Father is doing. if you accuse Jesus of violating the sabbath because He is healing, then you are also accusing God the Father of the same thing. Jesus does what the Father does.

i don't see how you can infer that Jesus is less powerful than God the Father from this passage with the exception of this verse "By myself I can do nothing;". i can see how, by face value a person can infer that Jesus is less than the Father but don't forget that Jesus isn't by Himself. He is one with God and therefore has all the power and authority of God.

Quote:
God is not one person who took three forms, i.e., the Father who became the Son…

I was under the impression that God did take 3 forms. You see, Christians ALWAYS tell me that God loved us and put himself in flesh. Well, that means that God wasn’t always in human form and did it only to give us salvation.

The person of the Son is not the same person as the Holy Spirit. The person of the Holy Spirit is not the same person as the Father. If you take away any one, there is no God.

So what happened when Jesus “died”? This is what I’m trying to say. If Jesus died there is no God. But since there IS a God, Jesus couldn’t possibly have been God.
it's ok, some christians don't get it either.

here's what they mean - it wasn't like, God the Father decided to come down to earth in the form of Jesus and when this happened, God the Father no longer existed for that time. and then when God wants to take the form a the Holy Spirit, he cannot be God the Father or God the Son. this is what is mean by God not being only 1 person who can take 3 different forms. ie. clark kent/superman, he can only be one or the other in a single moment in time.

this is why the trinity confuses us. we put rules of this earth and apply to God when God is not bound by them. if you could imagine clark kent and superman, standing next to each other at the same time, but also being one entity, then you can understand the trinity.

above paragraph edited for correctness.

again i'm probably not explaining it fully butmaybe you can get the idea.

anyway, i know you're busy but www.carm.org is a great site for explanations on christian doctrine.

for a list of things you may have questions on go to: http://www.carm.org/doctrine.htm

there's a section there that explains the trinity better than where i linked before and it also has a section that answers the very question you asked in the OP.

Last edited by its ray den; 08-29-2007 at 10:18 AM.
Appreciate 0
      08-29-2007, 10:50 AM   #154
hks786
Major General
United Kingdom
827

 
Drives: *
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK


Posts: 5,351
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede
HK, respectfully, you jump around between science "proving" things that are conveinient to the Quran, and then if Christians try to use a bit of science it's not needed to understand Allah. I've spoken of this before, and try to make it clear when I am making a differentiation between what I beleive to be fact, and what I take on faith. I can't see that same deliniation in many of your comments.
I know that you always say things respectfully and I always do the same. Dont worry about that. However, I hope that's not the way I came across. Firstly, I was trying to show that we cannot compare God to finite things like laws of physics to explain his being. I never use them to explain Allah, nor would I use them to explain the Christian perception of God.

However, I did use mathematics to explain God in Christianity. I’d do the same in Islam because Allah calls himself as the “one” God. He introduced that little part of mathematics, not me. Similarly, Christians have a oneness of God in their Bible, but also the confusing Trinitarian belief. All I was trying to do was to show that mathematically and theologically it doesn’t work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede
Forgive me for not knowing if the quran contains anything similar to Genesis, but God made light and it was good. So can we not beleive by comparison that if he made us in his image and we share in the divinity of God, at least in potential, that ALL of God's creations share in his divinity, if only by the fact that he created them? then why can light not exhibit characteristics that lead us to God, reveal a bit of His nature?
Well, the Quran doesn’t actually talk of any other being having divine qualities. Anyway, let’s consider what you said. I must ask friend, how anything apart from God can be remotely divine? Yes, they can be good, but never divine. God is infinite. His creations are finite. We can die, God cant die.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede
So in a sense, Jesus being God's ONLY Son, as opposed to the children of God, being like man in all things except sin, Jesus is a unique, single, special creation of God. How does that make him illogical, or any less Godly?
I think that in my above few posts I have addressed the issue of Jesus (AS) being God and Man at the same time quite clearly.
__________________
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:04 PM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST