BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > E90/E92 M3 Technical Topics > Track / Autocross / Dragstrip / Driving Techniques
 
INDustry distribution
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      01-21-2013, 10:51 PM   #1
radiantm3
Apex Everything!
 
radiantm3's Avatar
 
Drives: >1000 HP in my garage
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Danville, CA

Posts: 3,783
iTrader: (6)

Garage List
2011 E92 M3  [4.80]
2013 BMW X5M  [4.33]
Supercharged vs NA at the track Part 2. (Results are shocking)



Iíve done 6 track days with the ESS 535 Supercharger kit and while the difference in power is substantial on the street, I couldnít help but feel disappointed with it at the track. Hereís a post I wrote up after my first track day with the supercharger. As you can see I was skeptical from day 1. My times were decent so most people attributed that to the supercharger and said the car just doesnít ďfeelĒ as fast to me because Iím at the track. However, acceleration on the street just felt so different to me. After 6 track days, I was convinced that the supercharger wasnít making much if at all any extra power at the track so I decided to remove it and see what times I could pull without it. Initially I was guessing Iíd be maybe 1-2 seconds slower without the blower, but the numbers seem to speak for themselves.

There were no track days in between these 2 dates. So substantial improvement in driving skill could not have played a factor. The only change aside from removing the supercharger was going from 18Ē TE37SLís to 18Ē BBS FIís. The FIís are less than a pound lighter. The exact same tires were used (Yokohama AD08).

My goal isnít to speak badly of ESS. I still think the ESS 535 is their best kit and as you can see from the temperature comparisons, it handles heat great from a safety perspective. If you donít track your car often, I highly recommend the 535 (or whatever the equivalent is now). But for me personally, I decided to go back to stock because I wasnít happy with the lack of (extra) power at the track, the ever so slightly slower throttle response, and the non-linear power delivery that no one else seems to notice but me. Itís not something you really notice on the street when you have your foot buried, but at the track where precision is key, you can definitely feel a difference.

So while Iím no longer running the ESS supercharger, Iím extremely happy with their NA tune.

I'm trying to be as unbiased as possible and provide facts. It should be noted that I'm not a professional driver. I just wanted to provide some numbers from my fastest lap from my last 2 track days.
__________________
(1:40 @ Laguna Seca, 2:03 @ Thunderhill, 1:52 @ Infineon)
radiantm3 is online now   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-21-2013, 11:04 PM   #2
11redm3
First Lieutenant
 
Drives: F12 M6 and 550
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: California

Posts: 368
iTrader: (3)

Good read on the throttle response and good article for comparisons w and w/out sc.
11redm3 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-21-2013, 11:07 PM   #3
dagolfpro
Lieutenant Colonel
 
dagolfpro's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 E90 M3
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Posts: 1,793
iTrader: (8)

Great write up Mark.
__________________
2011 E90 AW | DCT | ZCP | ZCV | ZCW | ZP2 | Prem Sound | Moonroof | BMW Apps |
Evolve Exhaust | M Perf Steering Wheel | Tint | Lux | Painted Reflectors | Hardwired V1 | KW V3 | Volshlag CP | Brembo BBK | 18" Volks TE37SL Pressed Graphite | Yokohama AD08 | Schroth 4 Point Harness | Challenge GT Diffuser | I lied earlier, I wasn't done with mod, but I swear, I'm done now, no more mods...
dagolfpro is offline   Taiwan
0
Reply With Quote
      01-21-2013, 11:10 PM   #4
1MOREMOD
2014 Track Days - 9|Ridge 1:52:25|Pacific 1:35:72
 
1MOREMOD's Avatar
 
Drives: Race car->
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: check your mirrors

Posts: 11,946
iTrader: (5)

why is your slowest speed 8mph slower with the sc. when looking at my data logger i use that slow corner as an idicator of how im driving overall because it stays higher when im doing other things right. maybe just an off day? top speed should also be more unless you are limiting yourself by letting off early as to not obtain more speed out of fear? kind of what i do in the wet on the front straight. you cant win an HPDE but you can lose.
__________________

02 Tiag e46 M3|6MT|GC plates|MCS c.o.|GC bars|GC race control arms|GC bushings & bearings|BW eng. & tran. mounts|subframe kit|BW race shifter|BW Jaffster|Euro header|BW race|K&N c.a.i.|Epic race tune|Rouge pulleys|Seibon CF hood|CSL bumper|ST-40|XR-2|SS lines|half cage|Recaro profi|Profi 2 harness|BMWpedals|BW studs|
1MOREMOD is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-21-2013, 11:14 PM   #5
Merked M3
First Lieutenant
 
Merked M3's Avatar
 
Drives: E90 M3 6MT
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Sunnyvale, CA

Posts: 356
iTrader: (0)

Mark, that is an excellent time, especially without the supercharger!!! You guys must have had fun today, it was a good crew!!
__________________
2008 E90 M3 6-MT - Sold but not forgotten - amazing car

The next car, my Porsche Cayman S
Merked M3 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-21-2013, 11:19 PM   #6
radiantm3
Apex Everything!
 
radiantm3's Avatar
 
Drives: >1000 HP in my garage
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Danville, CA

Posts: 3,783
iTrader: (6)

Garage List
2011 E92 M3  [4.80]
2013 BMW X5M  [4.33]
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD View Post
why is your slowest speed 8mph slower with the sc. when looking at my data logger i use that slow corner as an idicator of how im driving overall because it stays higher when im doing other things right. maybe just an off day? top speed should also be more unless you are limiting yourself by letting off early as to not obtain more speed out of fear? kind of what i do in the wet on the front straight. you cant win an HPDE but you can lose.
That was just one of my best times. Regardless I'm pretty consistent overall. The fastest part of Laguna is right before turn 2. I'm full throttle all the way up to my breaking zone and it feels exactly the same with and without the supercharger.
__________________
(1:40 @ Laguna Seca, 2:03 @ Thunderhill, 1:52 @ Infineon)
radiantm3 is online now   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-21-2013, 11:32 PM   #7
1MOREMOD
2014 Track Days - 9|Ridge 1:52:25|Pacific 1:35:72
 
1MOREMOD's Avatar
 
Drives: Race car->
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: check your mirrors

Posts: 11,946
iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by radiantm3 View Post
That was just one of my best times. Regardless I'm pretty consistent overall. The fastest part of Laguna is right before turn 2. I'm full throttle all the way up to my breaking zone and it feels exactly the same with and without the supercharger.
thats interesting and pretty disappointing also. never considered a SC and now one more reason not to. any idea what caused this difference in street and track feel?
__________________

02 Tiag e46 M3|6MT|GC plates|MCS c.o.|GC bars|GC race control arms|GC bushings & bearings|BW eng. & tran. mounts|subframe kit|BW race shifter|BW Jaffster|Euro header|BW race|K&N c.a.i.|Epic race tune|Rouge pulleys|Seibon CF hood|CSL bumper|ST-40|XR-2|SS lines|half cage|Recaro profi|Profi 2 harness|BMWpedals|BW studs|
1MOREMOD is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-21-2013, 11:40 PM   #8
GewoW
#thatsanicemovebro
 
GewoW's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3 LSB/Black 6MT
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Montreal, Canada

Posts: 3,834
iTrader: (4)

Garage List
2011 BMW M3  [4.67]
Send a message via Skype™ to GewoW
__________________
GewoW is offline   Greece
0
Reply With Quote
      01-22-2013, 12:16 AM   #9
Richard@M-World
 
Richard@M-World's Avatar
 
Drives: NASA TTA #92 M3
Join Date: May 2011
Location: TX/IL

Posts: 683
iTrader: (0)

Thanks for the post, Mark. Mind sharing your Solo DL data?
__________________
Authorized AiM Dealer - Solo/Solo DL | SmartyCam HD | www.m-world.us
Richard@M-World is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-22-2013, 12:23 AM   #10
radiantm3
Apex Everything!
 
radiantm3's Avatar
 
Drives: >1000 HP in my garage
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Danville, CA

Posts: 3,783
iTrader: (6)

Garage List
2011 E92 M3  [4.80]
2013 BMW X5M  [4.33]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard@M-World View Post
Thanks for the post, Mark. Mind sharing your Solo DL data?
Sure. What format is best to export to?
__________________
(1:40 @ Laguna Seca, 2:03 @ Thunderhill, 1:52 @ Infineon)
radiantm3 is online now   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-22-2013, 01:04 AM   #11
smmmurf
Colonel
 
Drives: 2009 M3 Sedan 6MT
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Pleasanton, CA

Posts: 2,090
iTrader: (7)

Mark: great writeup and thanks for providing data on car vital temperatures. I am definitely in agreement with you of not having FI at the track, especially for sustained lapping on stock cooling.

However, I watched the lap from your ESS-supercharged 1:44.5 time and there was at least .75 second lost in the corkscrew and .25-.5 lost in T2. I *think* you probably got a cleaner best lap today but without video we can't really know for sure.

Without a pro level driver lapping both cars for consistency, it's hard to compare best laps from two different days. Keep in mind Pobst did a 1:42.96 with a completely stock DCT E92 M3 on 19" PS2's in 2008.

While I think the ESS SC is probably still faster for a single hot lap, I also believe 100% that you are right that a supercharger is not ideal for the track. Time is not everything for HPDE thrills. Having consistent performance and response outweigh the laptime bragging benefit (which is already compromised due to heat soak and throttle response).
__________________
M3 Sedan - AW/Black - 6MT - no moonroof - no folding seats - RAC RG63 - clear bra by Omega Werks
smmmurf is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-22-2013, 01:15 AM   #12
radiantm3
Apex Everything!
 
radiantm3's Avatar
 
Drives: >1000 HP in my garage
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Danville, CA

Posts: 3,783
iTrader: (6)

Garage List
2011 E92 M3  [4.80]
2013 BMW X5M  [4.33]
I have no doubt a single hot lap would be fast with the supercharger. But that's not really possible as nobody does just one lap sessions and tires wouldn't be heated enough to provide adequate grip for faster times. You can say I had bad corners all day long but I'm the one who put a decent amount of track and street time with and without the kit and the numbers just go along with what I already felt since day one.

Of course I'd love to see a professional driver independently compare them as well. But my conclusion is based on my own data and experience and I'd say that's at least better than theories and vendor claims. You should buy my kit and test yourself.
__________________
(1:40 @ Laguna Seca, 2:03 @ Thunderhill, 1:52 @ Infineon)
radiantm3 is online now   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-22-2013, 01:35 AM   #13
smmmurf
Colonel
 
Drives: 2009 M3 Sedan 6MT
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Pleasanton, CA

Posts: 2,090
iTrader: (7)

Quote:
Originally Posted by radiantm3 View Post
I have no doubt a single hot lap would be fast with the supercharger. But that's not really possible as nobody does just one lap sessions and tires wouldn't be heated enough to provide adequate grip for faster times. You can say I had bad corners all day long but I'm the one who put a decent amount of track and street time with and without the kit and the numbers just go along with what I already felt since day one.

Of course I'd love to see a professional driver independently compare them as well. But my conclusion is based on my own data and experience and I'd say that's at least better than theories and vendor claims. You should buy my kit and test yourself.
Mark, agreed on the conclusion that SC is no bueno for HPDE lapping. Subjectively and objectively, looking at the car's vitals, it doesn't add too much and it takes several things away (throttle response, consistency).

However, while there truly is no such thing as a perfect lap, I still stand by that you did not have as good of a "best lap" with the supercharger (or conditions were significantly better today than two months ago but since both days were cool, dry days I doubt it). yes, I believe you went faster with no SC but I also believe that the SC'd car with those mods is capable of going a lot faster than 1:44.5, probably more like 1:39-1:40 in 6MT trim with your mods.

Pro level drivers have a very low standard deviation of lap/split times, traffic permitting. Pros are not necessarily just better on a single lap but in their consistency in achieving such to the level where they can recommend minute adjustments and go out and test them to find out with conviction whether a subtle change made a car better or worse. Until a driver can lap within <.5 sec each lap, it's pretty difficult to put a lot of faith in a comparison of laptimes on different days and attributing the change mostly to the car.

I think you've definitely proven that the car is more consistent and healthy without the SC but I also think the SC'd car would have been markedly faster if you did the same quality of lap you did today with it on... without watching a video I can't say how much better your lap today was but I am very certain you drove better today than last time (that's a good thing!), haha

Thanks for the offer on the kit; someone else is going to have to test it since I'm not a big fan of mods let alone FI mods. I drove a 997.2 GT3RS this weekend on T-hill thanks to the generosity of one of our local members and I think all my extra pennies are going to go towards one of those and not modding my M3. Gonna be a while I think.
__________________
M3 Sedan - AW/Black - 6MT - no moonroof - no folding seats - RAC RG63 - clear bra by Omega Werks

Last edited by smmmurf; 01-22-2013 at 01:50 AM.
smmmurf is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-22-2013, 01:52 AM   #14
radiantm3
Apex Everything!
 
radiantm3's Avatar
 
Drives: >1000 HP in my garage
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Danville, CA

Posts: 3,783
iTrader: (6)

Garage List
2011 E92 M3  [4.80]
2013 BMW X5M  [4.33]
Quote:
Originally Posted by smmmurf View Post
Mark, agreed. However, while there truly is no such thing as a perfect lap, I still stand by that you did not have as good of a "best lap" with the supercharger.

Pro level drivers have a very low standard deviation of lap/split times, traffic permitting. Pros are not necessarily just better on a single lap but in their consistency in achieving such to the level where they can recommend minute adjustments and go out and test them to find out with conviction whether a subtle change made a car better or worse. Until a driver can lap within .5 sec each lap, it's pretty difficult to compare one laptime one day vs. another laptime another day and attributing it mostly to the car.

I think you've definitely proven that the car is more consistent and healthy with the SC but I also think the SC would have been faster if you did the same quality of lap you did today with it on... without watching a video I can't say how much better your lap today was but I am very certain you drove better today than last time (that's a good thing!), haha
That's just speculation on your part. I can feel when my car feels slow or fast. My car felt every bit as fast today as it did the last time at the track with the supercharger. My average clean laps today were 1:45-1:46. Exactly the same as in November with the supercharger. Top speed past turn one was about the same as well. I actually hit 123mph 2x today. Never went over 118mph with the
S/C. Supercharger should be hitting much higher speeds in that long straight.

But this is the problem here. Everyone assumes a supercharger will make you faster at the track. Maybe other setups might but not the 535.
__________________
(1:40 @ Laguna Seca, 2:03 @ Thunderhill, 1:52 @ Infineon)
radiantm3 is online now   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-22-2013, 01:58 AM   #15
smmmurf
Colonel
 
Drives: 2009 M3 Sedan 6MT
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Pleasanton, CA

Posts: 2,090
iTrader: (7)

Quote:
Originally Posted by radiantm3 View Post
That's just speculation on your part. I can feel when my car feels slow or fast. My car felt every bit as fast today as it did the last time at the track with the supercharger. My average clean laps today were 1:45-1:46. Exactly the same as in November with the supercharger. Top speed past turn one was about the same as well. I actually hit 123mph 2x today. Never went over 118mph with the
S/C. Supercharger should be hitting much higher speeds in that long straight.

But this is the problem here. Everyone assumes a supercharger will make you faster at the track. Maybe other setups might but not the 535.
Continue to agree with you that SC is not much faster, especially in an extended session where heat soak ruins the party.

While it is speculation on my part that the SC would be faster on a single lap, it is also speculation on your part that it is not, based on your subjective feedback of it being faster today than before; because without being able to compare both your laps on video we can't say whether one lap was better than another.

Regarding top straight speed: this is also highly determined by taking the previous corner consistently. And since the car responds better to throttle input now, it is easier to get on the gas at the proper moment. (Taking a corner better will put you in the upper RPM's with more power sooner.) Also better throttle response and better corner exit could easily give you the feeling of more power.

If you have data from last time and this time, it's possible that Richard will be able to figure how much acceleration is going on with each setup and a theoretical best lap time. I know the Traqmate software can do this. Or, hopefully next time you can get video with the same setup/conditions and we can compare it to see if it's driving or mostly the setup change.

Regardless of what we find, I think we're in agreement though that a fun track car that is consistent outweighs a slightly faster track car on a single lap so this is obviously a move in the right direction.
__________________
M3 Sedan - AW/Black - 6MT - no moonroof - no folding seats - RAC RG63 - clear bra by Omega Werks

Last edited by smmmurf; 01-22-2013 at 02:14 AM.
smmmurf is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-22-2013, 02:08 AM   #16
Richard@M-World
 
Richard@M-World's Avatar
 
Drives: NASA TTA #92 M3
Join Date: May 2011
Location: TX/IL

Posts: 683
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by radiantm3 View Post
Sure. What format is best to export to?
1) Go into RS2Analysis

2) Under Test Database, highlight the test(s) you want to export

3) Data --> Export Test

4) Choose a folder and save

info@m-world.us
__________________
Authorized AiM Dealer - Solo/Solo DL | SmartyCam HD | www.m-world.us
Richard@M-World is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-22-2013, 02:45 AM   #17
radiantm3
Apex Everything!
 
radiantm3's Avatar
 
Drives: >1000 HP in my garage
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Danville, CA

Posts: 3,783
iTrader: (6)

Garage List
2011 E92 M3  [4.80]
2013 BMW X5M  [4.33]
Quote:
Originally Posted by smmmurf View Post

Regardless of what we find, I think we're in agreement though that a fun track car that is consistent outweighs a slightly faster track car on a single lap so this is obviously a move in the right direction.
Definitely. It doesn't matter what anyone else says. I'm enjoying the car NA much more now on and off the track.
__________________
(1:40 @ Laguna Seca, 2:03 @ Thunderhill, 1:52 @ Infineon)
radiantm3 is online now   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-22-2013, 08:59 AM   #18
paradocs98
Major
 
paradocs98's Avatar
 
Drives: 2014 991 Carrera S
Join Date: May 2009
Location: NY

Posts: 1,342
iTrader: (0)

Very interesting info. Thanks for posting. I think chriszeh's point is a valid one, though--whatever the cause, there is some significance to your slowest corner being quite a bit slower during the supercharged run(s).
__________________
IB E90 M3 ZCP returned to BMW FS
paradocs98 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-22-2013, 11:21 AM   #19
radiantm3
Apex Everything!
 
radiantm3's Avatar
 
Drives: >1000 HP in my garage
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Danville, CA

Posts: 3,783
iTrader: (6)

Garage List
2011 E92 M3  [4.80]
2013 BMW X5M  [4.33]
So after reviewing my data between those 2 laps more, Smmmurf is right. The supercharger is making a bit more power over stock at the track (and there was a difference in driving consistency), but I still don't think it's that much. This is still just a 1 lap sample which are my 2 best times (that I have data for) at Laguna Seca. I've had the same overall results at Thunderhill as well.

__________________
(1:40 @ Laguna Seca, 2:03 @ Thunderhill, 1:52 @ Infineon)
radiantm3 is online now   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-22-2013, 11:22 AM   #20
radiantm3
Apex Everything!
 
radiantm3's Avatar
 
Drives: >1000 HP in my garage
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Danville, CA

Posts: 3,783
iTrader: (6)

Garage List
2011 E92 M3  [4.80]
2013 BMW X5M  [4.33]
Quote:
Originally Posted by paradocs98 View Post
Very interesting info. Thanks for posting. I think chriszeh's point is a valid one, though--whatever the cause, there is some significance to your slowest corner being quite a bit slower during the supercharged run(s).
Yes this was at the corkscrew.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple Derple View Post
Does the average/highest/lowest data correspond to your fastest lap or the entire data set?
Just my fastest lap.
__________________
(1:40 @ Laguna Seca, 2:03 @ Thunderhill, 1:52 @ Infineon)
radiantm3 is online now   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-22-2013, 11:59 AM   #21
DallasBoosted
Captain
 
DallasBoosted's Avatar
 
Drives: '08 E92 335i
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Dallas

Posts: 864
iTrader: (3)

Garage List
2008 BMW 335i  [5.00]
Saying without a pro driver you can't evaluate the part is disingenuous.. he's reporting his results with a part. News flash: none of you are pro drivers either. If he can't get better lap times out of the supercharger for whatever reason, then chances are, those reasons might apply to you too. Identifying the reasons is fine, but lets not go overboard with the "you're not a pro driver, your results don't matter" nonsense.
DallasBoosted is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-22-2013, 12:09 PM   #22
GTM_Challenge
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor

 
GTM_Challenge's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3,X5M,F30 335
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Chicago

Posts: 2,709
iTrader: (7)

Send a message via AIM to GTM_Challenge
Quote:
Originally Posted by radiantm3 View Post
So after reviewing my data between those 2 laps more, Smmmurf is right. The supercharger is making a bit more power over stock at the track (and there was a difference in driving consistency), but I still don't think it's that much. This is still just a 1 lap sample which are my 2 best times (that I have data for) at Laguna Seca. I've had the same overall results at Thunderhill as well.

After seeing this, its apparent that the supercharged car has the potential to be faster for sure. Not bashing you, but if your braking plots looked the same as they did with the NA laps, you'd have gone faster for sure.

Is the car faster with a s/c? Yes. Were you faster with a s/c? No.

There's a lot to be said for confidence in relation to track times. Thats why I don't like high hp cars. I'm slightly afraid of them at the track. I'll stick to my momentum cars that I can laugh at myself while I am driving.
GTM_Challenge is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:36 PM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST