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      01-21-2013, 08:18 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by MKE_M3 View Post
Not a lot of low weight builds out there, it will be great to see what you can do. I can't imagine this car at 3200 lbs! It would be INSANE
might not be worth doing though also as i may just buy something else and keep this baby how it is.
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      01-21-2013, 09:04 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Metak2you View Post
I did some searches and found this:

S62= 158kg or 348lbs E30/S62 Swap: http://www.***********.com/content.p...-into-E30-Swap

note: ****= Bimmerpost

S65= 202 kg or 445lbs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_S65

Seems that doing this swap would actually make sense from a weight advantage. -97lbs


No doubt the S62 is bad ass as I've seen this Turner Motor Sport S62 engined M6 win its class at Homestead in 2010. That being said the the S65 raised the bar engine tech wise- or BMW ///M would have just stuck with the S62 no Especially seeing as though the E60/E63 saw the introduction of the S85 V10. What I'm saying here, is why go back to the drawing board- and create an all new engine if the 4.9 L S62 is lighter than the 4.0L S65 with comparable horsepower and more torque?
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      01-21-2013, 09:09 PM   #47
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Perhaps the answer to my own question is: Because they could build and introduce the S65 - and frankly I'm glad they did. Still, much respect to the S62 - no doubt that it is a solid engine
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      01-21-2013, 09:50 PM   #48
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As emissions and efficiency standards continue to increase, does the need for new technology. That is the reason engines don't carry over from model to model. An engine introduced in model year 2000 can not meet todays CARB or CAFE standards, let alone both. Not to mention as they age, the issues start to surface. Take the secondary air passage issues with the S62 as an example.
The easiest way to keep up with the horsepower war that the public demands while keeping the engines from growing in size, is forced induction. Engines can only make so much power while maintaining their longevity.
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      01-21-2013, 10:11 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Bmw135er View Post
As emissions and efficiency standards continue to increase, does the need for new technology. That is the reason engines don't carry over from model to model. An engine introduced in model year 2000 can not meet todays CARB or CAFE standards, let alone both. Not to mention as they age, the issues start to surface. Take the secondary air passage issues with the S62 as an example.
The easiest way to keep up with the horsepower war that the public demands while keeping the engines from growing in size, is forced induction. Engines can only make so much power while maintaining their longevity.
Understandable with the ever increasing stringent regulations auto manufacturers face "today". I was speaking circa 2007 when the S65 was introduced in the E92 ///M3. As is the case with the S85 these engines are not models of fuel efficiency.
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      01-22-2013, 12:11 AM   #50
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Torque, while important for trucks which tow doesnt really apply to our/ my cars. Driving skill and the drivers ability for adapting to driving conditions (vehicle, roads, topography, weather, vehicle and tire condition and wear, driver experience and knowledge,) far outweigh the need for torque. Torque will work in a straight line at brand new. Skill is what is required to move an M3 around a track at speed. And Mods!
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      01-22-2013, 12:30 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by car_fan View Post
Understandable with the ever increasing stringent regulations auto manufacturers face "today". I was speaking circa 2007 when the S65 was introduced in the E92 ///M3. As is the case with the S85 these engines are not models of fuel efficiency.
Ironically emission stringency and controls have little or nothin to do with mileage! Ironic to me. The modern engine, including the S65 is VERY "clean" in terms of pollution it puts out relative to older engines.

It doesnt take into account, aside from a gas guzzler tax, the fact that the amount of fuel it goes through probalby negates the cleaner burning cause you burn 3 times more!
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      01-22-2013, 12:39 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by 808@702 View Post
Torque, while important for trucks which tow doesnt really apply to our/ my cars. Driving skill and the drivers ability for adapting to driving conditions (vehicle, roads, topography, weather, vehicle and tire condition and wear, driver experience and knowledge,) far outweigh the need for torque. Torque will work in a straight line at brand new. Skill is what is required to move an M3 around a track at speed. And Mods!
Having said this I have no mods nor seem to need them. Tires are all I have done recently, I dont drag race or have any care to. I love hustling my car around. It is great to actually drive an M3. Daily for work. It is hilarious. I work with a cool guy older dude who loves his Dodge Ram Diesel with 500 ft/lbs torque. Put him in a rental and he becomes a death trap and I strap on the belt and hang on. He has no ability to drive a regular car, and the bottom line is, we drive a "close to" perfect car. I guess my suggestion for a new thread would be "how skilled of a driver are you?" Be honest with yourself and answer.
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      01-22-2013, 12:45 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Goat Rodeo View Post
Well that kills the "M3 was made for DCT" argument.
Not really. First from the overall thrust. Gear 1 goes to manual but after that DCT has more thrust in every gear and significantly more in 3rd gear which is a very common track gear as well.

Second part of the arguement of why DCt goes with the m3 is due to having to keep the revs up which means lots of shifting. Lots of shifting constantly with a few clicks is much quicker than each manual shift and if you have to shift a lot, the seconds with each shift (miliseconds) adds up in time and simply effort.
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      01-22-2013, 01:18 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Munit View Post
well your post shows exactly the misunderstanding you and people have. You said torque is not relevent when you are taking to redline?

That makes zero sense. Wheel torque aka thrust is at its peak at redline. Engine torque is also near flat and the same at redline as it is throughout the band. The difference is the combination of the effect of the revs coupled with the gearing which DRASTICALLY changes what is measured at the engine.

Wheel torque is ultimately taking an engine making X amount of ability to drive an axle (torque). Then to translate into what actually gets the wheels you need to factor in the revs which obviously are not even part of an engine torque number, then as important or more is the effect of gearing which drastically varies depending on the type of engine. After that and you subtract the parastici losses, you get how much power the wheels are turning at or wheel torque/thrust. This last piece is all that matters.

So yes at very low rpms the m3 has no wheel torque, but given the design, it also is very easy to get into 5500 plus powerband and at that point the wheel torque is more than a 335.

So really it comes down to lazy drivers who for some reason want to be able to accelerate on the freeway in 6th or 7th without shifting vs someone who shifts to 3rd or 4th and takes a bit of effort.

I totally understand if you are a lazy driver as that is what cruising is about-but in that case I really feel people bought the wrong car if they chose an m3.
An m3 is designed as something assumed will be driven for performance. When driving it for performance, the needle stays above 6k and you are paddling/rowing gears and low end torque is irrelevent.

ANyway what does it matter lol
WHAT????? Buddy you are obviously in way over your head in this area of expertise. The worst type of person, is a person who has no clue and pretends that he understands!
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      01-22-2013, 01:23 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by car_fan View Post
No doubt the S62 is bad ass as I've seen this Turner Motor Sport S62 engined M6 win its class at Homestead in 2010. That being said the the S65 raised the bar engine tech wise- or BMW ///M would have just stuck with the S62 no Especially seeing as though the E60/E63 saw the introduction of the S85 V10. What I'm saying here, is why go back to the drawing board- and create an all new engine if the 4.9 L S62 is lighter than the 4.0L S65 with comparable horsepower and more torque?
I think the S65 exists primarily because the S85 came before it. If there was no S85, it would be interesting what engine the e9x would have.
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      01-22-2013, 01:32 AM   #56
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And about the turner M3 using the S62....just going off what I've read on the boards over the years, since the S62 was used in the M6, it made sense to continue with the S62 in the M3 in terms of cost and development.

In rolex, the daytona prototype and GT class BMW both use a S62. The S62 is the only approved engine for dp, not sure about the GT class.
http://www.grand-am.com/Portals/0/Im...%201.16.13.pdf
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      01-22-2013, 10:25 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMRLVR View Post
WHAT????? Buddy you are obviously in way over your head in this area of expertise. The worst type of person, is a person who has no clue and pretends that he understands!
Munit is still waiting for a refutation toward anything he said..... and to be honest, so am I. At least two people have knocked his post so far, but no-one has said what particular thing(s) in it is/are incorrect or crazy. Granted, his big post isn't written in the most elegant way. But what's wrong with saying " the feeling of speed and acceleration is actually thrust which is engine torque+gearing, NOT just engine torque"? It seems to me that's the brunt of what he's trying to explain/discuss.

See this thread for a little more info: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=157633
And this one on another site for an M3 vs C5 Corvette Z06 real-world torque comparsion: http://forums.carmudgeons.com/showthread.php?t=23608 The M3's torque at the wheels is quite comparable and sometimes even higher than the Vette's despite a 100+ lb-ft engine torque difference.
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      01-22-2013, 10:53 AM   #58
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Compared to the S62, the S65 complies to stricter emission standards, has a quicker ECU, unique firing order, the alternator disconnects during acceleration to maximize power, higher compression ratio, high displacement to power ratio, is lighter and more compact.

Both amazing engines and appropriate for their applications
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      01-22-2013, 01:00 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meyergru View Post
But you can only go so far with a flat-plane V8. 4.4l are about as high as you can go (maybe 4.6l). And even then, the percentage of gain is lower than the displacement increase would suggest.

You have to make a choice: high revs with a flat-plane race engine like the S65 or arbitrary displacement (and thus, horsepower and torque) with a cross-plane like the S62.

It is not a coincidence that the M3 and the Ferraris use cross-plane engines. If you want torque, buy a C63 AMG.
Are you kidding? Your post isn't even internally consistent. The S65 is a cross-plane engine, like domestic muscle cars and the C63 AMG. Ferraris use flat-plane engines.
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      01-22-2013, 02:35 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Metak2you View Post
I did some searches and found this:

S62= 158kg or 348lbs E30/S62 Swap: http://www.***********.com/content.p...-into-E30-Swap

note: ****= Bimmerpost

S65= 202 kg or 445lbs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_S65

Seems that doing this swap would actually make sense from a weight advantage. -97lbs
shit just got interesting.
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      01-22-2013, 03:12 PM   #61
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This post is incorrect in many (but not all) of its points.

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well your post shows exactly the misunderstanding you and people have. You said torque is not relevent when you are taking to redline?
Torque isn't at all important when you are at redline. At any given speed, it's power that matters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Munit View Post
That makes zero sense. Wheel torque aka thrust is at its peak at redline. Engine torque is also near flat and the same at redline as it is throughout the band. The difference is the combination of the effect of the revs coupled with the gearing which DRASTICALLY changes what is measured at the engine.
Torque at the drive wheels is what ultimately can accelerate the vehicle, but first of all, wheel torque is not at its peak at redline. It peaks in any given gear at the engine's torque peak. At any given vehicle speed, however, wheel torque (therefore the ability to accelerate) will be maxed at the power peak.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Munit View Post
Wheel torque is ultimately taking an engine making X amount of ability to drive an axle (torque). Then to translate into what actually gets the wheels you need to factor in the revs which obviously are not even part of an engine torque number, then as important or more is the effect of gearing which drastically varies depending on the type of engine. After that and you subtract the parastici losses, you get how much power the wheels are turning at or wheel torque/thrust. This last piece is all that matters.
A vehicle's ability to accelerate at any given speed is essentially governed by its power and by its weight. Torque, gearing and engine speed (RPM) are essentially immaterial in that context. Yes, you can go about calculating wheel torque at any given vehicle speed, but horsepower is the great shorthand in this context. More power gives you more wheel torque at any given speed, so why bother with those extraneous calculations?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Munit View Post
So yes at very low rpms the m3 has no wheel torque, but given the design, it also is very easy to get into 5500 plus powerband and at that point the wheel torque is more than a 335.
Agreed entirely. Since wheel torque is governed directly by power at any given speed, the M3 wins, especially on the right-hand side of the tach.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Munit View Post
So really it comes down to lazy drivers who for some reason want to be able to accelerate on the freeway in 6th or 7th without shifting vs someone who shifts to 3rd or 4th and takes a bit of effort.
Tend to disagree. I haven't bought an automatic for my own use since 1970, and still like to shift, but for me, having more available torque (meaning more power) while cruising means that I may very well be able to slot into that transient opening in the next lane without having to lose the second or so needed for a downshift - during which I am actually slowing down. Capiche?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Munit View Post
I totally understand if you are a lazy driver as that is what cruising is about-but in that case I really feel people bought the wrong car if they chose an m3.
Not sure I agree. I think the M3 is quite good at fairly low rpm in gear. Reference Car & Driver's 30-50 and 50-70 mph times in high gear with the manual box, and compare those times with other stick cars.

It's just that, when you're way over on the right-hand side of the tach with things getting all blurry and you're laughing like a loon, the low end feels as if it was way weak.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Munit View Post
An m3 is designed as something assumed will be driven for performance. When driving it for performance, the needle stays above 6k and you are paddling/rowing gears and low end torque is irrelevent.
Agreed entirely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Munit View Post
ANyway what does it matter lol
Given the traffic in this note, it seems to matter a lot.

Not for the first time, let me post a pointer HERE for more info on horsepower vs torque.

Bruce

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      01-22-2013, 03:22 PM   #62
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^Thanks, that was a very clarifying post instead of just "lol Munit's a crazy idiot!"

That link you provided's also looks great at a glance for learning about this stuff.
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      01-22-2013, 08:11 PM   #63
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Great post, Bruce! Munit, there is really no need to go on and on abt wheel torque. You have already acknowledged that at the low end of the tacho, the S65 is not suited for lazy driving. Please bear in mind that not all commute can reasonably be done at 6k rpm or more. Imagine driving that way in every instance on the streets? I seriously doubt even u are driving in that manner as that would be hazardous and socially unacceptable. We are talking about types of driving here and in the real life on the streets, we have to deal with varying driving situations.
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      01-22-2013, 08:49 PM   #64
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Nice job, Bruce... like the info and your constructive approach
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      01-22-2013, 08:58 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
Torque isn't at all important when you are at redline. At any given speed, it's power that matters.
Not totally correct, since power is in linear direct proportionality to torque, torque is very important, you just need to know rpm and gearing to get the entire picture.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
Torque at the drive wheels is what ultimately can accelerate the vehicle, but first of all, wheel torque is not at its peak at redline. It peaks in any given gear at the engine's torque peak. At any given vehicle speed, however, wheel torque (therefore the ability to accelerate) will be maxed at the power peak.
Correct, but generally peak power is fairly close to redline, which I assume Munit meant.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
A vehicle's ability to accelerate at any given speed is essentially governed by its power and by its weight. Torque, gearing and engine speed (RPM) are essentially immaterial in that context. Yes, you can go about calculating wheel torque at any given vehicle speed, but horsepower is the great shorthand in this context. More power gives you more wheel torque at any given speed, so why bother with those extraneous calculations?
I think you are forgetting about the third component to acceleration, traction. Not too much an engine design can do here, but linear power delivery certainly helps. Something both engines have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
It's just that, when you're way over on the ride-hand side of the tach with things getting all blurry and you're laughing like a loon, the low end feels as if it was way weak.
w00t!!!
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      01-22-2013, 09:19 PM   #66
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Not really. First from the overall thrust. Gear 1 goes to manual but after that DCT has more thrust in every gear and significantly more in 3rd gear which is a very common track gear as well.

Second part of the arguement of why DCt goes with the m3 is due to having to keep the revs up which means lots of shifting. Lots of shifting constantly with a few clicks is much quicker than each manual shift and if you have to shift a lot, the seconds with each shift (miliseconds) adds up in time and simply effort.
Maybe I am reading the charts wrong (and it's hard not to, without labeled axis or any sort of reference) but I see identical thrust in 1st and 2nd gears and maybe a 10% difference in 3rd gear.

Unlike the 6spd in the M5, the car would not be at a significant disadvantage if shifts speed were held constant.

Obviously shifting manually takes longer, but nobody cares.
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