E9x M3 LAP TIMES (Road Course)

[wwjd15]

Originally Posted by kaiv

Lol I kid I kid. But tracking with electronics correcting for you, applying brakes for you etc hinders your learning curve. You need to learn to do that yourself (Nissan GTR guys are you reading? )

Haha, just add a little bit to the GTR comment. Lots of people have misunderstanding about the GTR.
GTR is easy to drive fast, but hard to drive at the limit.
M3 is hard to drive fast at the beginning, but easy to drive at the limit once you manage it.
The best driver and a better than average driver in the GTR might have very less than 2 second in differences. However, it will have a huge gap in the M3.
Just my opinion though, adding some funs to the topic.

[dogbone]

Originally Posted by rhouck

I am proud! Now keep it off! Until then, we are assigning an 8 second handicap to all your posted times.

hahaha wow! Only 8 seconds handicap?! How generous of you Ryan!

Originally Posted by kaiv

MDM on = cheating

Lol I kid I kid. But tracking with electronics correcting for you, applying brakes for you etc hinders your learning curve. You need to learn to do that yourself (Nissan GTR guys are you reading? )

With that said, Gabe, congratulations! I remember riding with you a little while back when you first started tracking. You have made TREMENDOUS progress! Hats of to you my friend!

Thanks Kaiv!! Yeah, I think that was my second trip to Buttonwillow when you were instructing, and maybe only my 3rd track day ever. I learned quite a bit since then. As the year goes on, I'll be testing the waters more with DSC off. For now, I'm got some goals I want to reach with (Euro) MDM. Once I run the course of that, I'll back off and start working with DSC off more. Honestly, the laps I did with DSC-off last week went totally fine. (Euro MDM really is not much traction control to begin with.)

[OC3]

Originally Posted by dogbone

hahaha wow! Only 8 seconds handicap?! How generous of you Ryan!



Thanks Kaiv!! Yeah, I think that was my second trip to Buttonwillow when you were instructing, and maybe only my 3rd track day ever. I learned quite a bit since then. As the year goes on, I'll be testing the waters more with DSC off. For now, I'm got some goals I want to reach with (Euro) MDM. Once I run the course of that, I'll back off and start working with DSC off more. Honestly, the laps I did with DSC-off last week went totally fine. (Euro MDM really is not much traction control to begin with.)

lulz, Gabriel, just bend over like an inmate and take it. I did. From April of '11 to April of '12, ran 30 track days in MDM mode. And, I heard it all. From all directions.

Then, in May of '12, went DSC off, and was frustrated for a while. Timing-wise, the coming summer heat only compounded things. If you decide to go DSC off, I'd suggest doing it when things are cooler and will remain cooler for a while. It'll be better for the ego, lulz. Anyhow, 8 months and 17 track days later, I know I'm happy.

With driver-mod, NT01 and the car setup pretty neutral, I'm having a blast besting my previous personal bests, but the track videos sure look boring now.

[dogbone]

Originally Posted by OC3

lulz, Gabriel, just bend over like an inmate and take it. I did. From April of '11 to April of '12, ran 30 track days in MDM mode. And, I heard it all. From all directions.

hahaha fair enough. I have a great time hangin' out with all you guys. I don't mind the ribbing at all.

47 track days? Awesome! I think Speed District's event this Saturday will be #24 for me.

[dapopa9]

I personally think it is best to start from Day 1 with DSC Off...otherwise bad habits develop. Plus when you are first starting most likely you are "slow" anyway and a slide here and there will usually keep you brain and foot in check until you gradually learn more car control

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by OC3

If you decide to go DSC off, I'd suggest doing it when things are cooler and will remain cooler for a while. It'll be better for the ego, lulz.

not sure i agree with this. cold and wet will not help with ego with DSC off. it will make you friends with your body shop guy.

[rhouck]

Originally Posted by dogbone

Honestly, the laps I did with DSC-off last week went totally fine. (Euro MDM really is not much traction control to begin with.)

It does a lot more than you think. As you turn up the wick to go from 2:09 towards your current 2:01, things will change a LOT (that is a massive speed difference). Just be careful and take it slow Hopefully I'll see you this Sat and I'll make you take me for a ride

Originally Posted by chriszeh

not sure i agree with this. cold and wet will not help with ego with DSC off. it will make you friends with your body shop guy.

Cooler != cold and wet. Those of us in SoCal enjoy a lot of cool weather winter track days, with only a small fraction of them being wet

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by rhouck

Cooler != cold and wet. Those of us in SoCal enjoy a lot of cool weather winter track days, with only a small fraction of them being wet

true. i drive on track all winter as well. guess it depends on what cooler means. for me its track days down to low 30s so not condusive to traction even if dry. car also makes more power under these conditions which can make matter worse.

[bigjae1976]

DSC off...always.

[DallasBoosted]

If you're not driving with the DSC off, you're not driving, you're just steering.

[OC3]

Originally Posted by chriszeh

not sure i agree with this. cold and wet will not help with ego with DSC off. it will make you friends with your body shop guy.

As Ryan already mentioned, in SoCal, cold winter days doesn't automatically mean wet. In fact, most of the times, it's dry.

All I'm saying is, with cooler temp, the car makes more power and, hence, you get better lap times. But, I don't necessarily mean you should go for track lap records on your first day of going DSC off either. In my particular case, before going exclusively DSC off, I had already experimented with going DSC off and, at Buttonwillow (which is the track where time attacks, etc, are held at and hence is the lap time standard many of us compare things to) had matched personal best lap times (i.e. lap time was same with MDM & DSC off @ 2:06). Then, as I went DSC off permanently in May, the weather got hotter and hotter and my lap times got slower and slower into September. I think had this happened betwen December thru April, my lap times may not have gone slower like that and hence the comment about 'ego.'

I'm not saying my personal experience is equally-applicable to everyone else, but it is what it is. If I had to do it again, I would choose to go DSC off in the cooler winter months. And, just because the engine makes more power doesn't mean you're gonna flat out right away anyways.

[bigjae1976]

DSC and even MDM just causes a lot of understeer on entry and then just kills any exit speed. For example, slow corner onto a long straight. You generally want to be on power sooner and you want to be slipping the car all the way to exit. MDM just interferes and kills any speed. This car does awesome with some judicious throttle steering and sliding.

Your missing out on half the fun if you keep MDM or DSC on. An e46 M3 is a great car on the track. An E9X M3 is a FUN car on the track.

Just my $.02.

[dogbone]

Went to Speed District's Buttonwillow 13CW day yesterday. Thanks for the good times Josh!!

E90 M3
Track/course: Buttonwillow 13CW
Best Lap Time: 1:59.20
Brakes: AP Racing - Mintex F3R front, Ferodo DS2500 rear
Tires: Hankook TD - soft compound - 18" - 265/295
Suspension: JRZ RS Pro in rear. Front JRZ is still off the car. Still using stock front damper, H&R lowering springs and my old GC street plates.
Other mods: VF620, MS Test Pipes, (no aero parts)

This was my first time on Hankook TD. These are simply AMAZING tires. The grip is just incredible. The impression I'm getting is that they are fastest right when brand new. Danny (minicorsa) seemed to have the same experience with his at Big Willow. He ran his fastest laps on the TD's at Big Willow on his first laps. I was joking in the pits after the first session that I had so much grip that I could have been lending it out to others. It really was shocking. So awesome. On those first laps, I was thinking "this is how my car should drive ALL the time!!"

I ran three laps in a row at 1:59.xx (1:59.6, 1:59.2, 1:59.7) in my first session. I got caught in traffic every lap in my second session. Then I ran several 2:00.xx later, but didn't get back into 1:59 as the day went on. I had the thought later after I left the track, that I initially got the psi of the tires settled in the AM and I was good there, but it got QUITE a bit warmer as the day went on, and I didn't let more air out for that. I was only able to run 4 sessions at 20 minutes each and then had to leave due to other commitments.

Three of my four tires are holding up ok. But my driver front tire is showing quite significant wear on the outside edge. I will definitely get a second day from them. but I'm considering switching the abused edge to the inside of the rim and running the tires "backwards" because there's still good life on the other tires. Guys who run NT01's tell me that they can get 4 solid track days from a set of NT01's. I'll get two from the TD's; I'm not sure if the fronts will last for a third day. So, these tires could be an expensive habit if you were to run them all the time.

My hope is that my JRZ fronts will be back soon so I can feel the front JRZ with the TD's at Buttonwillow. I want to get those on and then either do the Test & Tune day at BW 13CW on Feb.1 or do the Shift S3ctor BW 13CW Feb.2 day.

And for all you haters-----yes, Euro MDM was on! I've spent the last year tracking with Euro MDM on. My first track day was a year ago. I didn't know anything about it. I'm generally conservative and need time to grow into things. My decision was to have the "nannies" in the background in case I really beefed things. Since I committed to that course, I decided to see it through. I've had some goals in mind driving that way. I'm getting close to completing that journey. Once I'm satisfied I've run my course with MDM, I will probably backoff and start practicing with DSC off. Again, I will need time to grow into things. But I see no reason to abandon the course of MDM in the middle of it. I'm having a great time. I'm getting faster every time I go out there. Why abandon it until I'm satisfied I've seen it through? I've come a long way in 1 year, but I'm in no hurry. So you guys can rib me and poke fun all you want. I'm good with it. The irony for me is that everyone has said all along that traction control makes you slow. I've heard it a million times. But now everyone is offended and up-in-arms since my times have fallen to these levels. All of a sudden, now I'm cheating. hahahahaha

I've already done a number of skid pad days at Big Willow's Balcony skid pad. I can drift the car around well enough, so I'm already comfortable with the car sideways and counter steering. But that's at comparatively low speeds. Watching some of you guys in a mild drift at 90+ MPH on Riverside at Buttonwillow is quite another thing. I can see the looks on guys' faces when they talk about getting loose there. It's not a moment of comfort or ease. That will take some time for me to accept. Who knows if I will ever accept it. I do this for fun. I have a wife and kids. I'm not 22 years old and angry at the world. Having the "nannies" around is a pretty awesome option for a guy like me----go have fun, but still have a computer monitoring things quietly in the background. I feel no shame there at all.

[Car54]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

DSC and even MDM just causes a lot of understeer on entry and then just kills any exit speed. For example, slow corner onto a long straight. You generally want to be on power sooner and you want to be slipping the car all the way to exit. MDM just interferes and kills any speed. This car does awesome with some judicious throttle steering and sliding.

Your missing out on half the fun if you keep MDM or DSC on. An e46 M3 is a great car on the track. An E9X M3 is a FUN car on the track.

Just my $.02.

Also, MDM or DSC with square tires seems to really be intrusive. A lot more than having the proper tire height stagger, (rears taller than fronts).

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by dogbone

Went to Speed District's Buttonwillow 13CW day yesterday. Thanks for the good times Josh!!

E90 M3
Track/course: Buttonwillow 13CW
Best Lap Time: 1:59.20
Brakes: AP Racing - Mintex F3R front, Ferodo DS2500 rear
Tires: Hankook TD - soft compound - 18" - 265/295
Suspension: JRZ RS Pro in rear. Front JRZ is still off the car. Still using stock front damper, H&R lowering springs and my old GC street plates.
Other mods: VF620, MS Test Pipes, (no aero parts)

This was my first time on Hankook TD. These are simply AMAZING tires. The grip is just incredible. The impression I'm getting is that they are fastest right when brand new. Danny (minicorsa) seemed to have the same experience with his at Big Willow. He ran his fastest laps on the TD's at Big Willow on his first laps. I was joking in the pits after the first session that I had so much grip that I could have been lending it out to others. It really was shocking. So awesome. On those first laps, I was thinking "this is how my car should drive ALL the time!!"

I ran three laps in a row at 1:59.xx (1:59.6, 1:59.2, 1:59.7) in my first session. I got caught in traffic every lap in my second session. Then I ran several 2:00.xx later, but didn't get back into 1:59 as the day went on. I had the thought later after I left the track, that I initially got the psi of the tires settled in the AM and I was good there, but it got QUITE a bit warmer as the day went on, and I didn't let more air out for that. I was only able to run 4 sessions at 20 minutes each and then had to leave due to other commitments.

Three of my four tires are holding up ok. But my driver front tire is showing quite significant wear on the outside edge. I will definitely get a second day from them. but I'm considering switching the abused edge to the inside of the rim and running the tires "backwards" because there's still good life on the other tires. Guys who run NT01's tell me that they can get 4 solid track days from a set of NT01's. I'll get two from the TD's; I'm not sure if the fronts will last for a third day. So, these tires could be an expensive habit if you were to run them all the time.

My hope is that my JRZ fronts will be back soon so I can feel the front JRZ with the TD's at Buttonwillow. I want to get those on and then either do the Test & Tune day at BW 13CW on Feb.1 or do the Shift S3ctor BW 13CW Feb.2 day.

And for all you haters-----yes, Euro MDM was on! I've spent the last year tracking with Euro MDM on. My first track day was a year ago. I didn't know anything about it. I'm generally conservative and need time to grow into things. My decision was to have the "nannies" in the background in case I really beefed things. Since I committed to that course, I decided to see it through. I've had some goals in mind driving that way. I'm getting close to completing that journey. Once I'm satisfied I've run my course with MDM, I will probably backoff and start practicing with DSC off. Again, I will need time to grow into things. But I see no reason to abandon the course of MDM in the middle of it. I'm having a great time. I'm getting faster every time I go out there. Why abandon it until I'm satisfied I've seen it through? I've come a long way in 1 year, but I'm in no hurry. So you guys can rib me and poke fun all you want. I'm good with it. The irony for me is that everyone has said all along that traction control makes you slow. I've heard it a million times. But now everyone is offended and up-in-arms since my times have fallen to these levels. All of a sudden, now I'm cheating. hahahahaha

I've already done a number of skid pad days at Big Willow's Balcony skid pad. I can drift the car around well enough, so I'm already comfortable with the car sideways and counter steering. But that's at comparatively low speeds. Watching some of you guys in a mild drift at 90+ MPH on Riverside at Buttonwillow is quite another thing. I can see the looks on guys' faces when they talk about getting loose there. It's not a moment of comfort or ease. That will take some time for me to accept. Who knows if I will ever accept it. I do this for fun. I have a wife and kids. I'm not 22 years old and angry at the world. Having the "nannies" around is a pretty awesome option for a guy like me----go have fun, but still have a computer monitoring things quietly in the background. I feel no shame there at all.

I'll be the first hater to rib and poke you

Running with DSC or MDM WILL develop bad habits. Once acquired, bad habits can become difficult to get rid of. Sure, the car can be plenty fast with the nannies on. But YOU can be faster with the nannies off . I guess it all depends what your short and long term goals are, becoming a better driver or posting fast times .

[dapopa9]

dogbone - great time and driving at Buttonwillow!

[dogbone]

Originally Posted by dapopa9

dogbone - great time and driving at Buttonwillow!

Yo Dude! Thanks!

You were flying out there yesterday! Beautiful countersteers! Really impressive! Did you pick up that .15 after I left?

[kaiv]

Gabe and Clint: Sounds like you guys were killing it yesterday!! Congrats on the personal bests!!

[dogbone]

Originally Posted by kaiv

Gabe and Clint: Sounds like you guys were killing it yesterday!! Congrats on the personal bests!!

Thanks Kaiv! Missed ya out there!

[tightie]

Originally Posted by dogbone

Went to Speed District's Buttonwillow 13CW day yesterday. Thanks for the good times Josh!!

Thanks for coming out and congrats on your awesome time!

[joe@trinityautosport]

E92 M3 6 Speed
Track/course: Buttonwillow CW
Best Lap Time: 2:02.7
Brakes: OEM w/ Performance Friction Race Pads
Tires: Hankook RS3's 275/35/18 F 285/35/18 R
Suspension: CKS w/ SWIFT
Other mods: VF620, MS Test Pipes (secondary cats ON), (no aero parts)

I placed 3rd overall in the Global Time Attack 2/2/2013

[radiantm3]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I'll be the first hater to rib and poke you

Running with DSC or MDM WILL develop bad habits. Once acquired, bad habits can become difficult to get rid of. Sure, the car can be plenty fast with the nannies on. But YOU can be faster with the nannies off . I guess it all depends what your short and long term goals are, becoming a better driver or posting fast times .

For what it's worth, I ran with MDM on one cold morning session (not sure why I decided to do it) and it just felt like something was wrong with my car. Once I turned it off, everything felt normal. I think that was proof alone for me that MDM causes you to drive very differently.