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      01-20-2013, 02:07 PM   #67
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Bruce, you forgot the Camaro ZL1-2:57.0
For me, the 1LE Camaro was the absolute standout. 3875 pounds, with the standard 426 HP engine. Unbelieveable.

Yeah, the ZL1 was quicker, but it has another 154 HP, and if you look at 'Ring times, you already know it plays in another league than the bimmer. The 1LE also plays in a different league, but it's a full league down compared to the M3, power to weight-wise.

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      01-20-2013, 02:33 PM   #68
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For me, the 1LE Camaro was the absolute standout. 3875 pounds, with the standard 426 HP engine. Unbelieveable.

Yeah, the ZL1 was quicker, but it has another 154 HP, and if you look at 'Ring times, you already know it plays in another league than the bimmer. The 1LE also plays in a different league, but it's a full league down compared to the M3, power to weight-wise.

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Oh, I know. I was just adding to the list of impressive American cars that beat the overpriced competition. Both are very impressive on the track.
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      01-20-2013, 05:52 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
Car & Driver Lightning Laps (at VIR):

2008 M3 (with recalcitrant auto), 3:05.6
2009 M3 (with slightly annoying auto and Michelin PSC+ sneakers), 3:05.4
2013 Shelby GT500 Mustang, 3:00.6
2013 Camaro SS (with 1LE handling package), 3:01.5
2013 MB C63 Black - 2:58.0
2013 Audi RS5 - 3:04.3
2012 Boss 302 LS - 3:02.8

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Edit: C & D hated the GT500 around VIR. The only reason it was quicker than the M3s was that it had insane power down the straights - but it was ugly everywhere else on track.
Gotcha, I see it now. I think it would be great to see how the M3 GTS would fair, given GT500 is 662 HP For example, a C63 with more horsepower than a M3 GTS didn't do that great on the Nordschleife. However, if the GT500 chassis is half competent, it should really destroy the GTS on the Nordschleife.
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      01-20-2013, 08:22 PM   #70
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Gotcha, I see it now. I think it would be great to see how the M3 GTS would fair, given GT500 is 662 HP For example, a C63 with more horsepower than a M3 GTS didn't do that great on the Nordschleife. However, if the GT500 chassis is half competent, it should really destroy the GTS on the Nordschleife.
That's just it. The GT500's chassis is NOT half competent.

The Camaro ZL1 chassis is, like the 1LE SS Camaro, very competent. That car turned a 7:41 at the 'Ring, comfortably ahead of the GTS bimmer.

Most folks on these forums thought the GTS M3 should've been quicker around the Nurgurgring than it was, it being essentially a race car along the lines of the Viper ACR. Street legal, but barely.

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      01-20-2013, 08:33 PM   #71
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It's funny how so many M3 owners on here are such upper middle class elitests.People who work hard to buy a nice M3, but then start bashing everything else, even though they haven't driven or will probably ever have the means to drive or afford a real high end sports car. Yes I know that there are some people on this forum who own or have driven Ferraris, Porches, etc yet they seem to be the ones with the most balanced and realistic opinions. It's one thing to love your M3 as it is a great car, but theres no reason to bash on Mustangs, especially when most of the newer ones are faster than in M3 both in the straights and around the ring.

Some M3 owners (and most on this forum) have such a tendency to to look down on anything that's not a M3 which really doesn't make sense. The M3 is really just factory modded 3 series with a big engine...ok stop your bitching and let me explain (becasue I know that's what you're doing in your head). The M3 isn't designed to be a true performance car and thats the god damned truth. Is it a great sportscar... yes it absolutely is, but its not a car that was purely designed for performance the way a Porsche is, or the way a Ferrari is, or even a GT500. Its pretty fast, and good in turns, but it's not beating any true sportscar around a track. Its a jack of all trades and master of none.

Some M3 owners might concede this, and then point to how the M3 is more sophisticated and way more luxurious than any mustang or corvette could ever be and that's somewhat true. But again whats the price range for the M3. 40k at the low end used to around 80k new? The interior of your M3 isn't Bentley or Rolls Royce quality and its largely the same as any other BMW sedan. Sure the interface is clean and the leather is nice, but let's not fool ourselves by extolling the BMW interior and build quality because the leather thats in the M3 is the same thats in any 328i you see on the road.

The BMW M division has gone waaayyyyy downhill and no longer are they building true performance cars, but rather a car for a middle aged man to buy for around 50-60k to pretend he has an awesome car. And for that price it is. But no one who has 200k to spend on a car would look at an M3 over any other sports car. Its good for its price range, but lets leave it at that.
Fact is the BMW M3 is a "Middle Class" car. Not even close to upper middle class. lol

The Mustang is also a "Middle Class" car.

I think the new Ford's are looking sharp but the interior is lacking.
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      01-20-2013, 08:37 PM   #72
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Fact is the BMW M3 is a "Middle Class" car. Not even close to upper middle class. lol

The Mustang is also a "Middle Class" car.

I think the new Ford's are looking sharp but the interior is lacking.
You are crazy saying a Mustang and an M3 are in the same class. Not even close. The Gt500 and an M3 are not even in the same class.
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      01-20-2013, 08:41 PM   #73
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You are crazy saying a Mustang and an M3 are in the same class. Not even close. The Gt500 and an M3 are not even in the same class.
Fact is they are whether we like it or not. I wont argue fact. Sorry. I have owned superior cars over both of these. I am talking classes.

Are you going to sit there and argue that the 2013 E92 M3 (Middle Class) is in the same class as the 2013 Audi R8 Spyder (Upper Middle Class)? I dont think so. Umm lets see a 2013 Chevy Corvette ZR1 is another "Upper Middle Class" car. E92 M3 is not even close again. See where I am going with this? lol I am counter arguing the "Class" statement of the above poster. I am bored, leave me alone. LMAO.

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      01-20-2013, 08:53 PM   #74
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Nope. I never said the M3 is upper class. I am just saying the M3 and the mustang are not even close to the same class. If they are then the middle class is one large class.
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      01-20-2013, 09:00 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
That's just it. The GT500's chassis is NOT half competent.

The Camaro ZL1 chassis is, like the 1LE SS Camaro, very competent. That car turned a 7:41 at the 'Ring, comfortably ahead of the GTS bimmer.

Most folks on these forums thought the GTS M3 should've been quicker around the Nurgurgring than it was, it being essentially a race car along the lines of the Viper ACR. Street legal, but barely.

Bruce
It's still crazy to think this little 400+ car with 300ish torque achieved a 7:48 around the ring vs. a 580 hp / 500 torque ZL1. I think if we give the M3 just a entry level SC @ 550hp, numbers would be quite different.
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      01-20-2013, 09:30 PM   #76
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Fact is they are whether we like it or not. I wont argue fact. Sorry. I have owned superior cars over both of these. I am talking classes. LMAO.
The "lmao" should be reserved for laughing at you

A well equipped mustang gt is 35k

A well equipped m3 is 70k

That would be twice as expensive for the m3. Soooo how exactly are they in the same class again? (Or whatever metric you use to come up with upper middle class cars vs middle class vs whatever)

They are totally different price points and cars. I think it's impressive that the muscle cars perform as well as they do these days
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      01-20-2013, 09:32 PM   #77
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It's still crazy to think this little 400+ car with 300ish torque achieved a 7:48 around the ring vs. a 580 hp / 500 torque ZL1. I think if we give the M3 just a entry level SC @ 550hp, numbers would be quite different.
It's also a stripped out race car with a high tech dct, far superior tires, no backseat and costs 120+k

I think the Zl1 is extremely impressive in terms of absolute performance.

That said, not my kinda ride and I wouldn't buy one, but I can respect it
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      01-20-2013, 10:06 PM   #78
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Nope. I never said the M3 is upper class. I am just saying the M3 and the mustang are not even close to the same class. If they are then the middle class is one large class.
Middle class is loosely defined by annual income ranging from 35k-170k, so yes, middle class is a huge range! And from being on the boss 302 forums and m3 forums, I would be confident to say that the median boss 302 owner is In a higher income bracket over the m3 owner....
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      01-20-2013, 10:20 PM   #79
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Middle class is loosely defined by annual income ranging from 35k-170k, so yes, middle class is a huge range! And from being on the boss 302 forums and m3 forums, I would be confident to say that the median boss 302 owner is In a higher income bracket over the m3 owner....
I guess we will agree to disagree. I just came from owning and showing a 12 GT500. The Boss and GT500 guys that I was with and showing we're all 50+ average Joe blue color or middle manager white guys. Guys that have grown up with 60s and 70s muscle cars. The folks so far that I have met that own or drive M3 are not in that group.

Also I was and thought he was referring to the car as middle class, not the owners of cars.
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      01-21-2013, 11:02 AM   #80
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It's still crazy to think this little 400+ car with 300ish torque achieved a 7:48 around the ring vs. a 580 hp / 500 torque ZL1. I think if we give the M3 just a entry level SC @ 550hp, numbers would be quite different.
Be that as it may, just doing the numbers suggest that the two cars are not far apart, power-to-weight-wise. The ZL1 in the C & D Lightning Lap test weighed 4111 pounds full of gas, giving a power to weight ratio of about 7.1 pounds per horsepower. The M3 GTS weighs in at about 3200 pounds* in the same condition, giving a power to weight ratio of 7.2 pounds per horsepower.

Pretty close.

As for torque, it pretty much doesn't matter out there on a race track, where you're always staying as close to the power peak as you can.

Bruce

*BMW says the GTS comes in at 3285 pounds under Euro rules, which assume a 165 pound driver but I think only a few gallons of gas. Subtract the driver and add gas for comparable U.S. SAE curb weight. Thus around 3200 pounds net under SAE rules.
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      01-21-2013, 11:38 AM   #81
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Be that as it may, just doing the numbers suggest that the two cars are not far apart, power-to-weight-wise. The ZL1 in the C & D Lightning Lap test weighed 4111 pounds full of gas, giving a power to weight ratio of about 7.1 pounds per horsepower. The M3 GTS weighs in at about 3200 pounds* in the same condition, giving a power to weight ratio of 7.2 pounds per horsepower.

Pretty close.

As for torque, it pretty much doesn't matter out there on a race track, where you're always staying as close to the power peak as you can.

Bruce

*BMW says the GTS comes in at 3285 pounds under Euro rules, which assume a 165 pound driver but I think only a few gallons of gas. Subtract the driver and add gas for comparable U.S. SAE curb weight. Thus around 3200 pounds net under SAE rules.
Impressive, and thanks for the detail. Around May 2012 there were rumors on the GT500 getting Nordschleife lap times, but haven't seen anything since. Very curious to see how it stacks up against the Camaro ZL1 now, given they are head to head competitors.

After further thought...I know many don't like the "retro" direction a lot of american cars are taking, but the idea of have a OEM 662hp Matte Black Cobra stang that can achieve 200+ mph is the definition of an american muscle car. It's just raw in your face straight line power at a relatively attainable price point. That is something I can't think of any other car delivering at that level.
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      01-21-2013, 01:52 PM   #82
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Impressive, and thanks for the detail. Around May 2012 there were rumors on the GT500 getting Nordschleife lap times, but haven't seen anything since. Very curious to see how it stacks up against the Camaro ZL1 now, given they are head to head competitors.

After further thought...I know many don't like the "retro" direction a lot of american cars are taking, but the idea of have a OEM 662hp Matte Black Cobra stang that can achieve 200+ mph is the definition of an american muscle car. It's just raw in your face straight line power at a relatively attainable price point. That is something I can't think of any other car delivering at that level.
Yes, I am very impressed overall about that GT500. The very definition of a modern musclecar.

Yeah, no 'Ring times for it, but as mentioned previously in this string, it ran a 3:00.6 against the Camaro ZL1's 2:57.5 at VIR.

On the other hand, in other tests the cars were pretty close to neck and neck, as I recall, although the Mustang has the clear edge in acceleration.

Bruce
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      01-22-2013, 08:14 PM   #83
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Fact is they are whether we like it or not. I wont argue fact. Sorry. I have owned superior cars over both of these. I am talking classes.

Are you going to sit there and argue that the 2013 E92 M3 (Middle Class) is in the same class as the 2013 Audi R8 Spyder (Upper Middle Class)? I dont think so. Umm lets see a 2013 Chevy Corvette ZR1 is another "Upper Middle Class" car. E92 M3 is not even close again. See where I am going with this? lol I am counter arguing the "Class" statement of the above poster. I am bored, leave me alone. LMAO.
The Gt500 and M3 are in the same "class" - both are roughly $60-70k. I would strongly disagree that an r8 is an upper middle class car. A $135,000 toy is not remotely middle class, or upper middle class for that matter.

As far as the gt500 - 631 ft/lb torque and 0-60 in 3.5 secs? There is nothing but awesome about that. Couldn't imagine a v8 more different than the m3. Mind-bending torque vs a screaming redline. I personally love high strung engines, but I would not turn my nose up at a GT500.
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      01-23-2013, 12:19 AM   #84
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The Gt500 and M3 are in the same "class" - both are roughly $60-70k. I would strongly disagree that an r8 is an upper middle class car. A $135,000 toy is not remotely middle class, or upper middle class for that matter.

As far as the gt500 - 631 ft/lb torque and 0-60 in 3.5 secs? There is nothing but awesome about that. Couldn't imagine a v8 more different than the m3. Mind-bending torque vs a screaming redline. I personally love high strung engines, but I would not turn my nose up at a GT500.
Speaking from experience. They are completely different cars. No where close and not in the same class IMO. Unless of course that class includes a VERY wide range of cars.
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      01-23-2013, 08:30 AM   #85
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Speaking from experience. They are completely different cars. No where close and not in the same class IMO. Unless of course that class includes a VERY wide range of cars.
From a strict pricing standpoint, these cars are roughly in the same class. From a style/performance/heritage standpoint, I completely agree. Very different cars - though I would consider both cars "sports cars". All of which makes this whole "class" argument a waste of time.

As awesome as the gt500 is, I would never own one - way too impractical as a DD and way too obnoxious to drive in a professional setting.
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      01-23-2013, 09:33 AM   #86
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From a strict pricing standpoint, these cars are roughly in the same class. From a style/performance/heritage standpoint, I completely agree. Very different cars - though I would consider both cars "sports cars". All of which makes this whole "class" argument a waste of time.

As awesome as the gt500 is, I would never own one - way too impractical as a DD and way too obnoxious to drive in a professional setting.
100% agree. Especially your last sentence. I will tell you that pricing is different or it was for me. On 1/1/12 I bought a fully loaded 12 GT500 brand new for $51k. On 10/31/12 I bought a brand new almost fully loaded M3 for $70k. That is not the same retail. Otherwise I agree with you.
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      01-23-2013, 10:11 AM   #87
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100% agree. Especially your last sentence. I will tell you that pricing is different or it was for me. On 1/1/12 I bought a fully loaded 12 GT500 brand new for $51k. On 10/31/12 I bought a brand new almost fully loaded M3 for $70k. That is not the same retail. Otherwise I agree with you.
Interesting - you are right that people who buy M3s don't usually cross shop GT500s.

How do the two compare? I was reading a little on the mustang - the gearing sounds crazy (although the '12 is not as nuts on the torque as the '13).
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      01-23-2013, 10:29 AM   #88
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Interesting - you are right that people who buy M3s don't usually cross shop GT500s.

How do the two compare? I was reading a little on the mustang - the gearing sounds crazy (although the '12 is not as nuts on the torque as the '13).
That has been my point kind of on the thread. They don't compare in my book. They drive, handle, feel, ride, sound completely different. GT500 is white knuckle straighline haul ass fun and excitement. If you are just cruising around they are boring as hell and the interior just doesn't compare. Yes you get A LOT of everywhere you go. Having said that I never took it to the track so all the track comparisons etc I cannot comment on.

The M3 is no where near the torque. I feel way more in control of the car. You can drive it harder and it won't let loose. The GT would bite you if you did not respect it. Not saying the M3 wouldn't do the same but not like the GT.

Lastly, and the reason I sold it. It was BORING. If you are not hammering it, the car just sucks cruising around. The community of GT500, Boss and Shelby owners are also just boring. I felt like I was 60 or something they all like to hang out with their hoods open and talk about the cars they used to have in the 60's and 70's. I got nothing there.

Again all this is my own personal opinion from owning and driving both. No need to flame, throw out a bunch of stats or anything else you want to. Just my humble opinion.
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