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      12-20-2012, 12:05 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alms211 View Post
You would be dead wrong. Montoya (a damn good driver) is imperical evidence. With equal equipment he cannot best the likes of a Jeff Gordon, Tony Stewart, Jimmy Johnson, et al.

It is just a different type of race, a different type of car with completely different driving and handling characteristics. You proved my theory in your last sentence -- re: Kimi in WRC races.

I would bet that if each series selected 5 of their best drivers within their own series and had them drive 10 ten laps in a Cup Car, 10 laps in an F1 car, 10 laps in a Daytona Prototype car and 10 laps in a GT car and record the aggregate lap times, Tony Stewart (assuming he can still fit in an F1 car) or Jeff Gordon would have the best overall time. Why? becasue they have driven open wheel cars many times (Stewart in Indy cars) and the Cup car is the most difficult to drive and is the one they drive for a living.
Montoya wasn't that good in F1, why do you think he left?

My point was that both WRC and F1 requires very specialized skills that outsiders don't pick very easily. But NASCAR requires the most generic driving skills, so you can move from F1 and Indy to NASCAR with more success, than the other way around.

I remain at my opinion that Alonso would lap better in NASCAR than Jimmy Johnson would in F1. I think it's much harder to drive a F1 car well, perhaps the hardest of all.

WRC could give it some competition in this respect simply because the terrain varies so much (dirt, ice, snow, gravel, Tarmac each with unique characteristics), because it's impossible to learn a stage the way you do a circuit, because everything is less predictable and you have to rely on the navigator which is a big leap of faith.
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      12-20-2012, 11:25 AM   #24
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I think one mistake that's being made in the racing comments is the focus on "pure" driving skill vs. racing skill. F1 does require more accelerating, braking, understanding of the line around corners, etc, which you'd think means an F1 driver has better pure driving skills. But NASCAR requires more ability to handle a car in a bunch, reacting to others around you, reacting to the car moving (either by itself or with help), avoiding crashes, and jumping on opportunities to link up and pass others.

So maybe NASCAR is "less" about the car and more about successfully racing in a crowded environment, while F1 is "more" about the car, and less about the activities of others in the race. Both are equally intense racing, but require very different car skills?
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      12-24-2012, 02:50 PM   #25
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      01-15-2013, 12:10 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Porschefile View Post
That's no surprise... bikes can't go through the corners nearly as well. They haul ass on the straights, but don't have anywhere near the same cornering ability of a decent track car, even a street legal one.

But yeah, a sprint cup car would eat up a M3 on a road course in straights and corners and brake zones. I don't know how the brakes "feel" because I haven't driven a sprint cup car, but they decel way faster than a M3 can.

OP, if it felt like it "handled like a dump truck" something was wrong with the setup or the tires were frigid or something. They can pull way more g's than a M3, even a M3 on sticky tires.
I've heard this statement from a lot of people involved in NASCAR . Most people involved in GT racing think that NASCAR is "just left hand turns", but those left hand turns ARE in a car with massive horsepower, marginal grip and inadequate brakes/handling. Add to that the "traffic" in corners (a lot of swapping of paint/contact) and you have an entirely different challenge than it would appear on the surface.
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      01-15-2013, 12:14 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by M3Now! View Post
I think one mistake that's being made in the racing comments is the focus on "pure" driving skill vs. racing skill. F1 does require more accelerating, braking, understanding of the line around corners, etc, which you'd think means an F1 driver has better pure driving skills. But NASCAR requires more ability to handle a car in a bunch, reacting to others around you, reacting to the car moving (either by itself or with help), avoiding crashes, and jumping on opportunities to link up and pass others.

So maybe NASCAR is "less" about the car and more about successfully racing in a crowded environment, while F1 is "more" about the car, and less about the activities of others in the race. Both are equally intense racing, but require very different car skills?
Top Gear did a bit about NASCAR and interviewed a Formula 1 driver who also drove in Nascar. He felt pretty much the same way. There's no substitute for experience.

I can't find the precise clip yet, but here's some of the off air discussion.
http://transmission.blogs.topgear.co...-nascar-racer/
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      01-15-2013, 11:02 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by PKizzle View Post
Well put! Also look at Montoya and Jacques Villenueve. JPM was a race winning driver in F1...even considered the next big thing in F1 at one time...and JV is a F1 WDC. If F1 driving is as superior as the other poster seems to think...then these guys should have just walked into NASCAR and demolished the good 'ol boys. JPM has had only mediocre success even after all these years and JV wasn't able to do squat.

-And this is coming from someone who has not missed an F1 race in the last 10 years and has barely even watched a full NASCAR race. But having read up a bit on NASCAR, and seeing these so called F1 greats flounder...at least I know enough to not trivialize it.
Sorry to tell you this but JV lucked into his championship and JPM never accomplished squat in F1. Those 2 guys are barely even average at best. Hardly the cream of the F1 crop. If it was a Schumacher, Vettel, Alonso, or Hamilton, or even Raikkonen, they would have done much better.
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      01-16-2013, 12:35 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by canadian stig View Post
Sorry to tell you this but JV lucked into his championship and JPM never accomplished squat in F1. Those 2 guys are barely even average at best. Hardly the cream of the F1 crop. If it was a Schumacher, Vettel, Alonso, or Hamilton, or even Raikkonen, they would have done much better.
F1 crop is Senna.

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Originally Posted by TVMA Doc View Post
I've heard this statement from a lot of people involved in NASCAR . Most people involved in GT racing think that NASCAR is "just left hand turns", but those left hand turns ARE in a car with massive horsepower, marginal grip and inadequate brakes/handling. Add to that the "traffic" in corners (a lot of swapping of paint/contact) and you have an entirely different challenge than it would appear on the surface.
this is why i only want to watch NASCAR on tracks like Watkins Glen. Separates the drivers from the left handers.
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      01-17-2013, 08:53 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by alms211 View Post
You would be dead wrong. Montoya (a damn good driver) is imperical evidence. With equal equipment he cannot best the likes of a Jeff Gordon, Tony Stewart, Jimmy Johnson, et al.

It is just a different type of race, a different type of car with completely different driving and handling characteristics. You proved my theory in your last sentence -- re: Kimi in WRC races.

I would bet that if each series selected 5 of their best drivers within their own series and had them drive 10 ten laps in a Cup Car, 10 laps in an F1 car, 10 laps in a Daytona Prototype car and 10 laps in a GT car and record the aggregate lap times, Tony Stewart (assuming he can still fit in an F1 car) or Jeff Gordon would have the best overall time. Why? becasue they have driven open wheel cars many times (Stewart in Indy cars) and the Cup car is the most difficult to drive and is the one they drive for a living.
LOL....you would lose that bet. A few years ago, Jeff gordon and jpm swapped cars at the Indy. Gordon driving the f1 on the f1 course and jpm driving NASCAR on the oval. Can't recall exact figures but it was something like......within a few laps jpm was within a second of the fastest lap of the NASCAR race and Gordon's best lap of the day was more that 5 secs off the fastest f1 lap. Gordon would've missed qualifying by more than 2 secs.
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      01-17-2013, 10:18 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mmmm3333 View Post
LOL....you would lose that bet. A few years ago, Jeff gordon and jpm swapped cars at the Indy. Gordon driving the f1 on the f1 course and jpm driving NASCAR on the oval. Can't recall exact figures but it was something like......within a few laps jpm was within a second of the fastest lap of the NASCAR race and Gordon's best lap of the day was more that 5 secs off the fastest f1 lap. Gordon would've missed qualifying by more than 2 secs.
Yeah i saw that video. We need more driver's championships like a spec series. Here's the link
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      01-26-2013, 01:00 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canadian stig View Post
Sorry to tell you this but JV lucked into his championship and JPM never accomplished squat in F1. Those 2 guys are barely even average at best. Hardly the cream of the F1 crop. If it was a Schumacher, Vettel, Alonso, or Hamilton, or even Raikkonen, they would have done much better.
JV may not be a legend along the lines of Senna, Prost and MS but he is a F1 WDC for crying out loud. Anyone with even a single F1 win is a good driver and all F1 WDCs are great drivers and ARE the cream of the F1 crop. Dismissing a F1 WDC as having lucked into his title is just disrespectful of the whole championship.

JPM is multiple race winner and was a contender for the 2003 WDC and had he not had that run-in with Rubens at Indy '03, could well have been the one vying with MS for the '03 title instead of Kimi. JPM WAS the Hamilton of that period...fast, a bit erratic and prone to mind fades, but always very fast and a contender in any car.

Oh...one minor detail...JV and JPM also happen to be one of the very, very few drivers to have won both the Indy 500 AND the CART championships, in addition to their multiple F1 victories.

Yet you seem to think Hamilton is a great driver, but JPM and JV are not.

Presume you've been watching F1 for only the last few years, know nothing about it's history, and really don't have a clue what you're talking about.
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      01-26-2013, 01:47 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PKizzle View Post
JV may not be a legend along the lines of Senna, Prost and MS but he is a F1 WDC for crying out loud. Anyone with even a single F1 win is a good driver and all F1 WDCs are great drivers and ARE the cream of the F1 crop. Dismissing a F1 WDC as having lucked into his title is just disrespectful of the whole championship.

JPM is multiple race winner and was a contender for the 2003 WDC and had he not had that run-in with Rubens at Indy '03, could well have been the one vying with MS for the '03 title instead of Kimi. JPM WAS the Hamilton of that period...fast, a bit erratic and prone to mind fades, but always very fast and a contender in any car.

Oh...one minor detail...JV and JPM also happen to be one of the very, very few drivers to have won both the Indy 500 AND the CART championships, in addition to their multiple F1 victories.

Yet you seem to think Hamilton is a great driver, but JPM and JV are not.

Presume you've been watching F1 for only the last few years, know nothing about it's history, and really don't have a clue what you're talking about.
You actually believe JV and JPM are of the same caliber as Hamilton?

I never said Villeneuve or Montoya can't drive. Of course they can. They are certified racing drivers. What I said was that they are nothing special when compared to other F1 drivers.

Yes, JV was big time lucky to get into a Williams that was light years ahead of the competition in pace and reliability. That's how he got 2nd place in 1996. And he also won in 1997 for the same reason, in addition to also having a weak teammate that year. Soon after that, his career spiraled down into oblivion and he spent the rest of his F1 career in the midfield or even at the back of the grid, never to make any further impact. Villenuve is more like the Jenson button of his era. An ok driver who was in the right place at the right time to capitalize on a massive stroke of good luck and translated that into a WDC.

As for Montoya, give me a break. He only won 7 races in 6 seasons. That's an average of just over one race win per season, not exactly legendary. M. Schumacher won more than that many races in one season. So he was a championship contender in 2003, so what? even the likes of Webber or Massa were championship contenders. Montoya got totally outraced by Raikkonen in the 1.5 seasons they spent at Mclaren, before he went off to nascar. He's an ok driver, but not even close to being one of the elites of F1.
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      01-26-2013, 02:57 PM   #34
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Oh...give me a break re Hamilton. Lewis Hamilton has got to be one of the most overrated drivers in F1. He may yet turn out to be a great, but so far he has only 1 WDC - exactly the same number as JV, Button, Mansell and a bunch of others - yet somehow he's made out to be in the same league as Senna and Prost. Plus he's been fortunate to drive for MacLaren his entire F1 career, so obviously his stats will look far more impressive than someone like JPM or Jenson who had to spend time driving for lesser teams. Just look at Jenson's stats from 09-12 and for the four years prior to it.

As for JPM being beaten by Kimi in their 1.5 seasons...so what, Hamilton was destroyed by Button in 2011 and was within a few points of LH in both 2010 and 12. And in case you don't remember, Massa beat Kimi in 08 and was leading him again in 09 until the accident. So both Massa and Jenson who you seem to think fall in the same class as JPM/JV have outscored your greats - Kimi & Lewis - while driving alongside them in the same team.

Oh and speaking of '08, if ever there was a driver who...I hate to say this...but 'lucked' into a F1 title, it has to be Lewis Hamilton. If only Timo Glock had managed to keep his car on track through one more corner, it would be Massa who we would hailing as the '08 WDC and not Lewis Hamilton

In fact, the similarities between JV's and LH's careers are pretty similar if you think about it...WDCs while driving for a top team who then move to a lower team. The Mercedes move could very well turn out to be the start of a downward spiral in LH's career...just like the BAR move was for JV. So until the time LH proves me otherwise at Mercedes, I rate him no better than JV or JPM.

But again, this is just my opinion and yours obviously differs..so we just need to disagree here.
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