2nd Ammendment died in New York

[Seminole]

Originally Posted by Team Plutonium

I'd think the loss of tax revenue by banning certain guns and ammo is miniscule.

So much of it is online now that they aren't getting any taxes from it anyways.

[pgviper]

I made a thread under politics and religion but I guess I'll repost here.

You see all of these great regulations coming into play and they sound amazing on paper. They are also politically correct and they SEEM like they will fix the problem. In reality, they aren't going to do the job!!! We see this from every other nation that has extreme gun laws. Australia has insane gun laws AND they are a damn island yet they still have mass shootings. NY is just a state, what is going to keep someone in PA from coming into NY to commit a mass murder?? If someone is going to commit a crime, they are going to commit a crime PERIOD. On a small level, if they can't get an assault rifle to stand up a convenient store (which normally they aren't using, who the hell uses an AR-15 to stand up a store), they will use a shotgun or a pistol which aren't even mentioned in these new regulations. Same for mass shootings. If you are going to shoot 45 bullets (five 9 round magazines), now you have to reload one extra time (six 7 round magazines), BIG F**KIN DEAL!!!!! It takes about 15 seconds to reload. Come on people, it doesn't take an assault rifle to commit a mass shooting, any class of gun can be used to commit large amounts of damage.

Registering weapons sounds great but it does nothing to PREVENT the problem. It only addresses the aftermath. From the mass shootings we have seen lately, these guys want you to know who they are and honestly don't care if they are caught or they kill themselves.

My point is that these regulations are a waste of tax dollars and are a politically motivated move so that Cuomo can say he was THE FIRST to make a move when he decides to run for president in 2016.

I graduated high school in 2007 and every day we had a police car outside the main door, security at every entrance and id's that we always had to carry on us. At the time, this seemed a bit excessive however looking back on it, these were necessary measures not to protect the students from themselves but to protect them from outside dangers. This is the type of security that we need. Obama can talk all day how we shouldn't have guns at school but his kids probably have a dozen armed guards standing around them at their school at all times. Is this because his kids are worth more??? F**K NOOOOOOO!!!! We use armed guards to protect our banks, our airports, train stations, etc... but what about our most prized possessions. I am only 23 but I know that if I asked any parent if they would trade their lives for their childs, they would say yes. So why are we willing to put more protection around what we are willing to give up rather than protecting what we value most????

[Nate4641]

Whats the policy going to be for New Yorkers to reload their own ammo?

[Templar]

Originally Posted by Team Plutonium

I'd think the loss of tax revenue by banning certain guns and ammo is miniscule.

Sort of like the $100 million that the POTUS ordered cut from the $3.5 trillion federal budget? But that was glorified as a great way to save money...

Considering the AR-15 is the most popular (or one of the most popular) long gun sold in America, I think it might be a pretty decent chunk. Maybe a bit more than $100 million in tax revenue lost, although I can't be bothered to do any math/estimations.

[Team Plutonium]

Originally Posted by Templar

Sort of like the $100 million that the POTUS ordered cut from the $3.5 trillion federal budget? But that was glorified as a great way to save money...

Considering the AR-15 is the most popular (or one of the most popular) long gun sold in America, I think it might be a pretty decent chunk. Maybe a bit more than $100 million in tax revenue lost, although I can't be bothered to do any math/estimations.

Yup, probably. I don't disagree with you here, I just think the taxes lost won't be much of an issue. Doesn't really matter anyway, I'll be helping with my increased taxes this year.

[Team Plutonium]

Originally Posted by Seminole

So much of it is online now that they aren't getting any taxes from it anyways.

Agreed.

[sjk9671]

Originally Posted by Nate4641

Whats the policy going to be for New Yorkers to reload their own ammo?

As far as we have been hearing, the components are also subject to NICS check as well.

If anyone has questions about the NY laws, let me know. Im activy involved with a NY political action group that has been studying the new regs.

[Templar]

Originally Posted by Team Plutonium

Yup, probably. I don't disagree with you here, I just think the taxes lost won't be much of an issue. Doesn't really matter anyway, I'll be helping with my increased taxes this year.

You're probably right. It was just a thought I had.

I also hadn't thought about online sales that much either, so that's a good point. The last two weapons I bought were at gun shows because I got a good deal on them. I also still had a background check done at the gun show, so I didn't personally experience this "gun show loophole."

[MidwestGolfBum]

Originally Posted by pgviper

...

I graduated high school in 2007 and every day we had a police car outside the main door, security at every entrance and id's that we always had to carry on us. At the time, this seemed a bit excessive however looking back on it, these were necessary measures not to protect the students from themselves but to protect them from outside dangers. This is the type of security that we need. Obama can talk all day how we shouldn't have guns at school but his kids probably have a dozen armed guards standing around them at their school at all times. Is this because his kids are worth more??? F**K NOOOOOOO!!!! We use armed guards to protect our banks, our airports, train stations, etc... but what about our most prized possessions. I am only 23 but I know that if I asked any parent if they would trade their lives for their childs, they would say yes. So why are we willing to put more protection around what we are willing to give up rather than protecting what we value most????

While I agree with the rest of what you said, I wanted to point out that I was in high school in 1978-81 in Kentucky and we had armed guards with long guns at every entrance/exit in our school. This was long before any of the current things going on, and we never really had a problem with any kind of violence, it was just something that the people came together and said, lets make sure that the school is a safe place for everybody, regardless of if there was a problem before or not.

[carve]

Originally Posted by MiddleAgedAl

Yes, it would be as easy for them as it has already been in Canada or Australia or England for 200+ years now. Remember, as recently as 100 years ago, England effectively still "ran the world". They were the World Police, the USA of their time. The English people then certainly couldnt rely on the USA coming in to protect them, and yet their citizens didnt feel that the absence of such offshore protection created a need to be heavily armed themselves to deter tyranny.

Other than disarming Scottland to put down a rebellion, and attempting to disarm the American colonies (leading to a revolution), the English didn't have many gun laws until the pistol act of 1903. Oh- you can put disarming India on there, too. The only times they tried to control guns was to put down rebellion amongst their "subjects".

For anyone who really feels that the only thing stopping the gov, your own fellow Americans, from being the next Hitler is the deterrent of you shooting them dead if they try, then man, I don't know what to say.

Nobody said that is the only thing- it's the last resort.

[MiddleAgedAl]

Originally Posted by MP0WER

The other things which you call outlandish, i call possible. Plausible, probably not, but possible, yes. I'm not living in any kind of enslaved paranoia either. It would seem to me with your logic and openness to other possibilities you would concede the mere possibility of absolute power and control over the people by the government.

With it being just a mere possibility, appease me for a moment and tell me what would stop the government from assuming absolute power over the people if the people are not armed?

Yes, it could happen. Lots of things could possibly happen. There aint enough hours in the day, or dollars in the bank, to prepare for every possible outcome, so sometimes it best to start with the things that are most PROBABLE, and then, eventually, if resources permit, work your way down to the things that are merely possible.

There's nothing stopping them from abusing a position of power, just like there was no deterrant for the other countries I mentioned to oppress their citizens either, yet they didnt act on that for hundreds of years.

Whats stopping people from mugging people in wheelchairs? After all, they can't properly fight back, can they? Since there is no threatening deterrent, I guess everyone in a wheelchair has their valuables stolen on a weekly basis... or maybe, people are not always a bunch of savages, who will ruthlessly pounce on a victim in a vulnerable position at the very first opportunity.

You have a panicked public, and the people who want more gun control outnumber those who dont at the moment. Like it or not, that's a fact.

If your argument is that you cant limit someone's guns because it weakens the deterrent against government tyranny, then you better find a way to convince those folks that such tyranny is a far more clear and present danger than some crazed gunman at a school. Just since Newtown, already there have been several shootings as schools (with not the same victim count, fortunately), so good luck with convincing worried parents Hitler is around the corner.

I do agree it sucks for all the responsible gun owners who dont go shooting up schools to be penalized, but I think the public patience to do nothing at all has been exhausted. Something has to change. It would be nice if whatever it was, actually made things safer.. No, I dont think that going from 10 rounds to 7 rounds will do that; but I dont think it will impose an insufferable penalty on recreational gun users either. OK, you gotta change magazines that much more frequently at the gun range, big deal. They're hardly saying you have till Jan 31st to turn in all your firearms, although you'd think they were saying that, given the drama stirred up by some people screaming that the 2nd amendment is being trampled.

[MiddleAgedAl]

Originally Posted by MediaArtist

By then it would be too late.

Ever heard of FDR's executive order 9066?

They carted people off 110,000 Americans to Manzanar prison camp for no other reason other than race. Yeah, that's what our government is capable of. This government which can't balance a budget, did build a concentration camp and methodically moved 110,000 people from the California coast into the middle of the desert.

This was on a small scale, but it doesn't mean it couldn't happen in the future on a larger scale given the right turmoil and circumstances. Tyranny relies on people like you to prosper.

Yes I have. That did happen, and it's easy to make the argument that it's a form of government tyranny all right.

Too bad the 2nd amendment wasnt already in place by 1942, because an armed populace would have been an effective deterrent against the gov doing stuff like that to it's own people.

Oh wait....

[MediaArtist]

Originally Posted by MiddleAgedAl

Yes I have. That did happen, and it's easy to make the argument that it's a form of government tyranny all right.

Too bad the 2nd amendment wasnt already in place by 1942, because an armed populace would have been an effective deterrent against the gov doing stuff like that to it's own people.

Oh wait....

Racism, and very small numbers. Unfortunately.

For a better example just look what happened when 2.4 million colonist refused to be disarmed in 1776.

Or did you not read your history books in grade school?

[Mr Tonka]

Originally Posted by Templar

You're probably right. It was just a thought I had.

I also hadn't thought about online sales that much either, so that's a good point. The last two weapons I bought were at gun shows because I got a good deal on them. I also still had a background check done at the gun show, so I didn't personally experience this "gun show loophole."

Total taxes generated by the firearm industry in the US during 2012 will be in the range of $4.5 Billion. My guess is with you guys that it will likely not be much of a hit in NY with the already stringent laws in place.

I think the loop hole they are talking about is the sales that take place between patrons. Here in FL you can see a guy carrying a gun at a gun show, ask him if he wants to sell it and pay him for it on the spot; no background check or waiting period. I have purchased weapons from private parties and actually prefer that in order to keep noses out of my business. But if i were to sell one of my ARs to a private party with no back ground check and it were used to kill innocent people by the person i sold it to and a simple background check would have stopped the sale... well, that's an easy decision to make. By all means cut out private party sales with no background checks. You do need the support of the people to keep these things from happening though.

One way to do that is extreme punishment for the original owner of the firearm should it be used in a crime and there was no FFL transfer done for that sale. The seller should be charged as a willing accessory to the crime committed.

If your firearm is stolen and you fail to report it stolen and it is used in a crime you should be charged as an accessory to that crime, just as if you drove that person to the scene of the crime knowingly.

If you report a firearm stolen more than 3 times in a year your license is suspended. If you report a firearm stolen more than 6 times in your life, you license is revoked.

Why is logic lost on the government?

[MediaArtist]

Originally Posted by MiddleAgedAl

No, I dont think that going from 10 rounds to 7 rounds will do that;

Then why support and pass the legislation? It's pointless.

[Seminole]

[JasonCSU]

Originally Posted by MP0WER

One way to do that is extreme punishment for the original owner of the firearm should it be used in a crime and there was no FFL transfer done for that sale. The seller should be charged as a willing accessory to the crime committed.

If your firearm is stolen and you fail to report it stolen and it is used in a crime you should be charged as an accessory to that crime, just as if you drove that person to the scene of the crime knowingly.

If you report a firearm stolen more than 3 times in a year your license is suspended. If you report a firearm stolen more than 6 times in your life, you license is revoked.

Why is logic lost on the government?

These are very similar ideas I was also thinking of for logical gun control. I would think they would be relatively simple to implement and maintain. Maybe also include something like a required firearms safety class to those who are buying their first (known) firearm.

The problem is you have one side screaming for less regulations than we currently have, and the other side screaming for bans. I'm sure the majority falls in between these two sides, which is why I don't understand the difficulty in finding common ground on logical regulations like suggested above.

[Nate4641]

Originally Posted by MiddleAgedAl

Yes I have. That did happen, and it's easy to make the argument that it's a form of government tyranny all right.

Too bad the 2nd amendment wasnt already in place by 1942, because an armed populace would have been an effective deterrent against the gov doing stuff like that to it's own people.

Oh wait....

You have to also imagine the times that this happened. Again you miss some important points from that event. People, especially in large groups, love to have someone or something to blame. When the Japanese attacked pearl harbor, it wasn't fighter planes that were the chosen evil, it was the Japanese. Much like with recent events, the people want something to blame and it would be politically incorrect to blame the mentally ill, not to mention that is too broad a category. So now we have an emotional hatred for guns, much like in the 40's how there was an emotional hatred for the Japanese. The scare was that any asian looking person could be a planted spy or assassin, or part of a secret military getting ready to strike from within. This sweeping emotion back then managed to round up as many asian looking people as they could "for the greater good".

"Why did this not happen after 9-11?" Glad you asked! Because there is a big difference in society between the 40's and now, err well 11 years ago. It would be politically incorrect to incarcerate anyone of arab decent. There were plenty of people who in the aftermath of 9-11 would have loved nothing more. Constant news stories about how muslims were being discriminated against in the U.S. on an almost daily basis. Fortunately for them, in the instant media coverage world we live in that would never have worked unless if it were covert and it probably would have made things worse.

[JAM3S]

LOL @ the serfs claiming that there's no way the government would become tyrannical and turn on its citizens despite the numerous examples throughout history.

Its because of people like that, that Hitler was able to do what he did.

[MiddleAgedAl]

Originally Posted by MediaArtist

Racism, and very small numbers. Unfortunately.

For a better example just look what happened when 2.4 million colonist refused to be disarmed in 1776.

Or did you not read your history books in grade school?

I did read the books. I dont think that everything from 237 years ago is completely relevant for todays very different world. That's not a "better" example, IMHO.

As wise as they were, the founding fathers who composed the constitution and amendments were humans, and fallible. Not perfect.
I dont believe it's disrespectful to suggest that they could not have been expected to possibly predict the kind of world we live in today. Change to society accelerates with time.

In fact, I would suggest that is irrational or illogical to always fall back on the "but the constitution says x, and that cannot be questioned, it shall remain completely relevant for all enternity". I'm not saying flippantly discard it, but I am saying it makes sense to pause and ask "does this still make sense today; and if not, then why continue to cling to it blindly?" That's not treason, it's refusing to mindlessly become an unquestioning slave to dogma.

The point I was trying to make was that even with the 2nd amendment, clearly it provided no deterrent whatsoever to discourage the government from doing oppressive/bad things to it's citizens. 1776 it was not.

But things change. 1942 to 2001 was only 59 years, not 200, and yet what we did NOT see was a repeat of the pearl harbor era internment camps pop-up, (only this time for arabs after sep 11). If society hadnt changed in 59 years, then there would have been such camps, or at least serious public discussion of creating such camps, even if the idea never materialized. That didnt happen.

[MiddleAgedAl]

Originally Posted by MediaArtist

Then why support and pass the legislation? It's pointless.

I've never said I support that particular legislation. It's pointless, but it's also as harmless as it is pointless. Nobody is taking your guns away, they're just making you reload a bit more frequently.

What I've said is that the opposition to such legislation on the grounds that it dismantles the 2nd amendment (or that the 2nd amendment even still provides any sort of deterrent to gov tyranny), are both false premises for an argument, and does nothing to paint the opposer as a reasonable, open-minded, logical individual whose opinion should be seriously considered.

It is pointless, but I also think that in today's climate, the idea that the pro-gun crowd should not have to budge 1 inch on anything, and the anti-gun crowd should give up and walk away with nothing, well, that probably ain't gonna fly either.

Dont argue against the 7 round mag because it's a big step towards enabling the next Hitler on American soil, that makes you sound like a doomsday-prepper style loony to a large chunk of the population. Argue against it because you have a better idea, and present those ideas (like some on this board have thoughtfully done).

[MediaArtist]

Originally Posted by MiddleAgedAl

I did read the books. I dont think that everything from 237 years ago is completely relevant for todays very different world. That's not a "better" example, IMHO.

As wise as they were, the founding fathers who composed the constitution and amendments were humans, and fallible. Not perfect.
I dont believe it's disrespectful to suggest that they could not have been expected to possibly predict the kind of world we live in today. Change to society accelerates with time.

In fact, I would suggest that is irrational or illogical to always fall back on the "but the constitution says x, and that cannot be questioned, it shall remain completely relevant for all enternity". I'm not saying flippantly discard it, but I am saying it makes sense to pause and ask "does this still make sense today; and if not, then why continue to cling to it blindly?" That's not treason, it's refusing to mindlessly become an unquestioning slave to dogma.

The point I was trying to make was that even with the 2nd amendment, clearly it provided no deterrent whatsoever to discourage the government from doing oppressive/bad things to it's citizens. 1776 it was not.

But things change. 1942 to 2001 was only 59 years, not 200, and yet what we did NOT see was a repeat of the pearl harbor era internment camps pop-up, (only this time for arabs after sep 11). If society hadnt changed in 59 years, then there would have been such camps, or at least serious public discussion of creating such camps, even if the idea never materialized. That didnt happen.

You're simply discarding data or incidents that don't fit your viewpoint. 59 years ago is different than 200, etc. Those are excuses, not real points. I don't think anyone is clinging to legislation blindly but before we allow people to butcher the constitution and change laws blindly, we'd like to know why, and what it accomplishes. So far, EVERYONE in this thread agrees that 10 bullets to 7 bullets does absolutely nothing. So why pass the legislation? Just to make liberals like you feel good? That's what the politicians think.

All I ask is for you to answer the following question honestly.

If Manzanar were expanded to encompass the entire state of California and it's 30,000,000 citizens, do you think it would be easier to accomplish with an armed populace, or unarmed?