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      01-16-2013, 02:51 PM   #23
buildbright
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Originally Posted by MisterSkiMask View Post
I assure you it matters very little when your coefficient of friction is at or close to zero if your car weighs 3700lbs or 3800lbs.

I have not driven the new M5 (I don't like to plant those seeds in my head until I am ready to buy), but the V-10 in the E60 was absolutely fantastic, the chassis was great too for such a large car. The only thing that let it down was SMG, fuel economy was terrible but I could have forgiven that.
I agree but a Honda Accord(3200lb) or Lexus ES(3500lb) vs a 550xi(4400lb) or S6(4300lb) is a huge difference. That was my point.

Smart man not planting that seed. Some times test drives can lead to buying the wrong car. I almost bought the C63 AMG but relized its not the right car for day to day.
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      01-16-2013, 03:10 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by buildbright View Post
I love the A7 but I dont think the RS7 looks that much better. It shoud be fast as hell and the interior looks awesome. I hate the A6/A7 shifter ugly as hell.

But the S6 is not anywhere near the BMW M5. Its fast in a straight line but after seeing how slow it is on a race track it is dissapointing. Its less then 3 seconds slower at VIR then a 335i with Runflats! and is plagued with bad understeer. $80,000 no thank you, i also notice they are having a lot of engine problems and people selling them to buy the cheaper and better handling RS5.
Best big sedan on the market IMO is easily the Panamera Turbo/S...but you def have to pay a premium.

But i was referring more to this; says a lot when the m5 loses to an s6 AND an AMG.

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...audi-s6-page-4

and the fact that I dont care for the new M5. Didnt like the steering feel and other than being fast in a straight its a very uninspiring vehicle.
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      01-16-2013, 04:02 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Wolfinwolfsclothing View Post
Best big sedan on the market IMO is easily the Panamera Turbo/S...but you def have to pay a premium.

But i was referring more to this; says a lot when the m5 loses to an s6 AND an AMG.

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...audi-s6-page-4

and the fact that I dont care for the new M5. Didnt like the steering feel and other than being fast in a straight its a very uninspiring vehicle.
Not a Panamera fan looks awful, looks like a porsche station wagon.

Yes in that Car and Driver article it loses but then it wins in this one. The 2013 Lightning Lap and if you read the article in the mag which I have all they talk about is how bad the S6 drives and how good the M5 is. Thats why I dont trust magazines but I have driven the M5 on the track and can say its not M3 steering but its damn good.

Ferrari 458 - 2.49.9
Lexus LFA - 2.55.1
Chevy Camaro ZL1 - 2.57.5
Merc C63 Black Series - 2.58.0
Porsche 911 S - 2.58.9
Ford Shelby GT500 - 3.00.6
Chevy Camaro SS 1LE - 3.01.5
Jaguar XKR-S - 3.02.1
Porsche Boxster S - 3.04.2
Audi RS5 - 3.04.3
BMW M6 - 3.04.7
BMW M5 - 3.05.2
* BMW M3 (E92) - 3.05.4 (from last year's competition, for reference)
* BMW 1M Coupe - 3:06.6 (from last year's competition, for reference)
Audi S6 - 3.09.8
BMW 335i sedan - 3.13.2
Hyundai Genesis 3.8 R - 3.13.9
Dodge Charger Pursuit - 3.17.8
Subaru BRZ - 3.18.6
Ford Focus St - 3.21.4
Chevy Caprice PPV - 3.23.0
Fiat 500 Abarth - 3.27.3
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      01-16-2013, 04:23 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by buildbright View Post
Not a Panamera fan looks awful, looks like a porsche station wagon.

Yes in that Car and Driver article it loses but then it wins in this one. The 2013 Lightning Lap and if you read the article in the mag which I have all they talk about is how bad the S6 drives and how good the M5 is. Thats why I dont trust magazines but I have driven the M5 on the track and can say its not M3 steering but its damn good.

Ferrari 458 - 2.49.9
Lexus LFA - 2.55.1
Chevy Camaro ZL1 - 2.57.5
Merc C63 Black Series - 2.58.0
Porsche 911 S - 2.58.9
Ford Shelby GT500 - 3.00.6
Chevy Camaro SS 1LE - 3.01.5
Jaguar XKR-S - 3.02.1
Porsche Boxster S - 3.04.2
Audi RS5 - 3.04.3
BMW M6 - 3.04.7
BMW M5 - 3.05.2
* BMW M3 (E92) - 3.05.4 (from last year's competition, for reference)
* BMW 1M Coupe - 3:06.6 (from last year's competition, for reference)
Audi S6 - 3.09.8
BMW 335i sedan - 3.13.2
Hyundai Genesis 3.8 R - 3.13.9
Dodge Charger Pursuit - 3.17.8
Subaru BRZ - 3.18.6
Ford Focus St - 3.21.4
Chevy Caprice PPV - 3.23.0
Fiat 500 Abarth - 3.27.3
The M5 pulls off such an impressive time considering the mass it has to brake, turn and accelerate around that track. Its made to be a luxury car that has the talent to perform, not a performance car trying to be a luxury car. With the updated LCI on its way and the new competition introduced, BMW has got to bitch slap everyone back in it's place. Not sure if introducing the carbon brake option and new lighting will suffice. Regardless on how damn good that RS7 looks, it definitely will not have the exciting RWD feel and connection with the driver that the M5 possesses.
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      01-16-2013, 04:41 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buildbright View Post
Not a Panamera fan looks awful, looks like a porsche station wagon.

Yes in that Car and Driver article it loses but then it wins in this one. The 2013 Lightning Lap and if you read the article in the mag which I have all they talk about is how bad the S6 drives and how good the M5 is. Thats why I dont trust magazines but I have driven the M5 on the track and can say its not M3 steering but its damn good.

Ferrari 458 - 2.49.9
Lexus LFA - 2.55.1
Chevy Camaro ZL1 - 2.57.5
Merc C63 Black Series - 2.58.0
Porsche 911 S - 2.58.9
Ford Shelby GT500 - 3.00.6
Panamera Turbo S - 3.00.7
Chevy Camaro SS 1LE - 3.01.5
Jaguar XKR-S - 3.02.1
Porsche Boxster S - 3.04.2
Audi RS5 - 3.04.3
BMW M6 - 3.04.7
BMW M5 - 3.05.2
* BMW M3 (E92) - 3.05.4 (from last year's competition, for reference)
* BMW 1M Coupe - 3:06.6 (from last year's competition, for reference)
Audi S6 - 3.09.8
BMW 335i sedan - 3.13.2
Hyundai Genesis 3.8 R - 3.13.9
Dodge Charger Pursuit - 3.17.8
Subaru BRZ - 3.18.6
Ford Focus St - 3.21.4
Chevy Caprice PPV - 3.23.0
Fiat 500 Abarth - 3.27.3
Added Panamera Turbo S for reference. I love that car. Handles and performs like most supercars (and has better fit/finish/quality) and easily hands the M5 a bad beating. 5 seconds on a 3 minute lap is a few lifetimes.

I just think BMW dropped the ball on creating a car that was better to drive than the e60 m5. Its better looking, though very mundane and faster but doesnt evoke emotion IMO.
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      01-16-2013, 06:47 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfinwolfsclothing View Post
Added Panamera Turbo S for reference. I love that car. Handles and performs like most supercars (and has better fit/finish/quality) and easily hands the M5 a bad beating. 5 seconds on a 3 minute lap is a few lifetimes.

I just think BMW dropped the ball on creating a car that was better to drive than the e60 m5. Its better looking, though very mundane and faster but doesnt evoke emotion IMO.
Mundane? Have you driven an F10 M5 on a track?

The Porsche better beat the M5 for $175,000. At that price and power it is a suoercars and should be treated as such even if it looks like a station wagon.
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      01-16-2013, 09:22 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by RingMeister01 View Post
The 3 is king. No question. Manufactures are attempting to build a 911 rival and I think BMW has had this for years, the M3. It'll be more so with the intro of the next M4. BMW has to dig deep and cut the BS and build cars like they do best. Cars that outperform every other car in its segment and keep up with those above its intended target.

I have to give it to the RS7. It just looks so mechanical and fast, while the M6 looks more organic and fluid. To each his own. I wonder how the Audi drives?
M3 is not in the same league as 911.
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      01-16-2013, 09:55 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by buildbright View Post
The S4 is a great package in "whole" itís no better than the 328/335i. They both have their strong points. I think largely the build quality and interior styling is pretty even, even though I prefer the BMW.

S4 is a more expensive car so it has some things I wish I had like Nappa Leather, that badass steering wheel, and gorgeous shifter. To be honest price was not a factor the extra $100 to $150 would not have swayed me but the S4 is a more expensive car no matter if you lease or buy.

That being said the 335i has its positive points as well...RWD (nothing is more fun), IDRIVE (I hate MMI as much as the crappy screen itís on), BMW Perks (European Delivery at the Welt and the Performance Center), Cheaper, and more options for tuning without voiding your warranty.

Now the S4 may be 3 to 4 tenths faster the first time you run (heatsoak sucks on the engine) but I can spend $379 on a JB piggyback and be faster all day while still keeping my warranty. As for grip change the tires like a lot do and the S4 will be behind the 335i.

These were the two cars I decided to buy so I drove both at least 4 times even on a racetrack once. The S4 is an amazing car and so is the 335i to me there just different. I am not trying to vindicate my purchase either, I wish I had the S4 steering wheel, Nappa leather, and shifter every day I drive my car but "you can't have your cake and eat it too"
I used to have a E90 335i (with the N54 engine) and a number of other BMWs prior to that. I currently drive an A5 S-line. I love both brands but feel that Audi has surpassed BMW as a better overall car, and even, dare I say, better driver's car. Also, Audi is constantly improving and making their cars more driver-oriented, while BMW is moving in the opposite direction and is quickly becoming the second Mercedes.

As far as build quality, it's not a night and day difference but Audi is definitely better, especially when it comes to attention to detail (i.e. tighter gaps between body panels, better paint, better rust protection, etc.)

With regards to the S4 engine being prone to heatsoak, this is the first time I hear it. The 3.0TFSI is a great engine and its official stats are waaay underrated (kind of like the N54, but not the N55). This is why the S4 is so much faster than the F30 335i despite being heavier.

It's sad that BMW is losing sight of what made it successful in the first place. ten years ago, BMW was the undisputed driving machine. No other company made 4-door cars that could rival BMW in terms of handling and driving feel. Nowadays, BMW is just another luxury car brand.
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      01-16-2013, 11:15 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ti335
It's sad that BMW is losing sight of what made it successful in the first place. ten years ago, BMW was the undisputed driving machine. No other company made 4-door cars that could rival BMW in terms of handling and driving feel. Nowadays, BMW is just another luxury car brand.
Well said.
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      01-16-2013, 11:20 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Wolfinwolfsclothing
But i was referring more to this; says a lot when the m5 loses to an s6 AND an AMG.

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...audi-s6-page-4
That Car and Driver article is one of the most biased reviews I've ever read. Audi pays Car and Driver...
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      01-16-2013, 11:25 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Ti335 View Post
I used to have a E90 335i (with the N54 engine) and a number of other BMWs prior to that. I currently drive an A5 S-line. I love both brands but feel that Audi has surpassed BMW as a better overall car, and even, dare I say, better driver's car. Also, Audi is constantly improving and making their cars more driver-oriented, while BMW is moving in the opposite direction and is quickly becoming the second Mercedes.

As far as build quality, it's not a night and day difference but Audi is definitely better, especially when it comes to attention to detail (i.e. tighter gaps between body panels, better paint, better rust protection, etc.)

With regards to the S4 engine being prone to heatsoak, this is the first time I hear it. The 3.0TFSI is a great engine and its official stats are waaay underrated (kind of like the N54, but not the N55). This is why the S4 is so much faster than the F30 335i despite being heavier.

It's sad that BMW is losing sight of what made it successful in the first place. ten years ago, BMW was the undisputed driving machine. No other company made 4-door cars that could rival BMW in terms of handling and driving feel. Nowadays, BMW is just another luxury car brand.
I disagree

Much faster ? S4 is 3 to 4 tenths of a second faster.

Build quality is about equal on today's cars. Older cars not so much ever worked on an old Audi or VW? The plastics are so brittle they turn to dust.

Now as far as drivers car sorry. RWD takes skill to get around a track fast. Now don't get me wrong Audi makes a fine car but it drives to much like a 5 series then a trust sports car.

We will both take up for our brands we drive now. I could have bought anything from a S4, S6, C63 or so on. The 3 series is a special car but more importantly BMW is more of a lifestyle. BMW is more focused on the drivers experience. BMW has Dinan, and there own performance parts. BMW has an amazing facility the performance center. Audi not so much. Also if I want I can make my 335i fast and still keep my Warrenty with Audi I can't.
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      01-16-2013, 11:29 PM   #34
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That Car and Driver article is one of the most biased reviews I've ever read. Audi pays Car and Driver...
In one article they say it's great the other article they bash it. I don't believe anything car magazines say.
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      01-17-2013, 01:29 AM   #35
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Love the RS7, wish I can get that car later down the road.

Technically, Audi has Stasis, which is equivalent to Dinan for BMW. Yes, Stasis provides warranty for their performance products, same warranty concept as with Dinan. I can go to my local Audi dealership to get Stasis parts since they are authorized Stasis dealer.

Personally, after trading my E90 335i for a B8 S4, the S4 blows the 335i in a lot of categories. I agree 335i is a driversí car and focuses on performance. However, the S4 has a better interior, more refined, and itís fast car as well. Having AWD is a bonus for me. I donít think you can go wrong with either car, but for me the S4 is the better overall package car.

Itís funny how in this review they say BMW has the better interior but Audi has better performance. Fair review and Audi has stepped up their game.

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      01-17-2013, 01:32 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by buildbright View Post
We will both take up for our brands we drive now. I could have bought anything from a S4, S6, C63 or so on. The 3 series is a special car but more importantly BMW is more of a lifestyle. BMW is more focused on the drivers experience. BMW has Dinan, and there own performance parts. BMW has an amazing facility the performance center. Audi not so much. Also if I want I can make my 335i fast and still keep my Warrenty with Audi I can't.
How do you plan on making your car fast and keeping the warranty? Dinan voids the factory warranty and replaces with its own limited warranty. You get the same thing with Audi and Stasis. I guess you could get a PPK but that gets you what, an extra 20 hp? Still below what Audi makes stock.

The difference in acceleration between the S4 and 335i is 0.5 seconds according to Edmunds (same driver, cars tested back to back on the same day). That's not insignificant. Actually, that's more than the difference between 328i and 335i.

As for the BMW "lifestyle", I feel like it's becoming a thing of the past. BMW does not really care about the enthusiast driver anymore. They seem to be more interested in selling cars to women and status seekers these days. What bugs me about BMW is that it appears to be a company in decline, even if the sales numbers do not yet reflect it. BMW has tossed aside their core strengths and are focusing on generic luxury. They are diluting brand equity by putting the M badge on everything, from SUVs to diesel powered family cars. The M cars don't even have unique engines anymore...just reinforced versions of the standard I6 and V8 blocks with more boost. In fact, I'm pretty sure that "M" stands for Marketing these days. The 3 and 5 series, BMW's core product lines, have become too soft and isolating. You can't even get a real sport suspension on the 5 series anymore (and on the 3 series, it's only available on the Sport Line in conjunction with a bunch of unnecessary and overpriced cosmetic stuff). And don't get me started on the upcoming FWD cars like the Z2...
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      01-17-2013, 03:07 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Ti335 View Post
How do you plan on making your car fast and keeping the warranty? Dinan voids the factory warranty and replaces with its own limited warranty. You get the same thing with Audi and Stasis. I guess you could get a PPK but that gets you what, an extra 20 hp? Still below what Audi makes stock.

The difference in acceleration between the S4 and 335i is 0.5 seconds according to Edmunds (same driver, cars tested back to back on the same day). That's not insignificant. Actually, that's more than the difference between 328i and 335i.

As for the BMW "lifestyle", I feel like it's becoming a thing of the past. BMW does not really care about the enthusiast driver anymore. They seem to be more interested in selling cars to women and status seekers these days. What bugs me about BMW is that it appears to be a company in decline, even if the sales numbers do not yet reflect it. BMW has tossed aside their core strengths and are focusing on generic luxury. They are diluting brand equity by putting the M badge on everything, from SUVs to diesel powered family cars. The M cars don't even have unique engines anymore...just reinforced versions of the standard I6 and V8 blocks with more boost. In fact, I'm pretty sure that "M" stands for Marketing these days. The 3 and 5 series, BMW's core product lines, have become too soft and isolating. You can't even get a real sport suspension on the 5 series anymore (and on the 3 series, it's only available on the Sport Line in conjunction with a bunch of unnecessary and overpriced cosmetic stuff). And don't get me started on the upcoming FWD cars like the Z2...
The PPK does only advertise 20 hp but no one knows if that is true. But BMW has Exhaust, BBK, Suspension, Shifters, Steering wheels, and More. Does Audi? Does Audi let invite people to pickup their cars at their racetrack and race? I could go on and on but BMW gives you more.

And I have ordered a JB3 stage 1 and have had my downpipe for a week. Took it to the dealership to remove A.S.S. and they can't even tell it was on there. As for the JB I can take it off and no one i have seen has been caught using one and got a Warrenty claim denied. Audi is on a a witch hunt and deny claims left and right for Tunes.

As far as Dinan and Stasis being the same is laughable. One is a sound company with great products and the other is almost out of business.

Well I have seen several comparisons and it's more like 3 tenths with the 335i having wheel spin.

5 series is soft but it is suppose to be but so is the A6 which handles like a pig. The base 3 series can be had with a M Adaptive Suspension (which is awesome btw) so that point is mute and you could even take it a step further and get the M Performance Suspension which should be even better.

Everything you say about BMW using the same engines Audi copies so I don't know if that point holds water.

Don't get me started about the M myth. The only people who claim M cars are soft are forum people who don't own one.
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      01-17-2013, 05:24 AM   #38
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M3 is not in the same league as 911.
I am a 911 (997) owner and though you do not consider the M3 in the same league, the M3 does make you ask "do I really need a 911." That's what I love about this particular car and many cases and mine in particular, the answer is no. The M3 is in the same league but it challenges cars above and beyond it.
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      01-17-2013, 05:37 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Ti335 View Post
How do you plan on making your car fast and keeping the warranty? Dinan voids the factory warranty and replaces with its own limited warranty. You get the same thing with Audi and Stasis. I guess you could get a PPK but that gets you what, an extra 20 hp? Still below what Audi makes stock.

The difference in acceleration between the S4 and 335i is 0.5 seconds according to Edmunds (same driver, cars tested back to back on the same day). That's not insignificant. Actually, that's more than the difference between 328i and 335i.

As for the BMW "lifestyle", I feel like it's becoming a thing of the past. BMW does not really care about the enthusiast driver anymore. They seem to be more interested in selling cars to women and status seekers these days. What bugs me about BMW is that it appears to be a company in decline, even if the sales numbers do not yet reflect it. BMW has tossed aside their core strengths and are focusing on generic luxury. They are diluting brand equity by putting the M badge on everything, from SUVs to diesel powered family cars. The M cars don't even have unique engines anymore...just reinforced versions of the standard I6 and V8 blocks with more boost. In fact, I'm pretty sure that "M" stands for Marketing these days. The 3 and 5 series, BMW's core product lines, have become too soft and isolating. You can't even get a real sport suspension on the 5 series anymore (and on the 3 series, it's only available on the Sport Line in conjunction with a bunch of unnecessary and overpriced cosmetic stuff). And don't get me started on the upcoming FWD cars like the Z2...
You are so lost
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      01-17-2013, 09:52 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RingMeister01 View Post
I am a 911 (997) owner and though you do not consider the M3 in the same league, the M3 does make you ask "do I really need a 911." That's what I love about this particular car and many cases and mine in particular, the answer is no. The M3 is in the same league but it challenges cars above and beyond it.
Agree the M3 isnt in the same league...even against a 997.2S is gets killed in every performance aspect and handling on or off the track and thats isnt getting into GTx cars which almost nothing can touch.

The M3 is great at being an all around car and yes it challenges cars above, but the 911 is the bar and challenges almost anything above it especially in the case of the 991S. Its running on track at or better than most supercar. Even the Mclaren wasnt a better driver's car in MT's Best Drivers car this year.
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      01-17-2013, 01:45 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Wolfinwolfsclothing View Post
Agree the M3 isnt in the same league...even against a 997.2S is gets killed in every performance aspect and handling on or off the track and thats isnt getting into GTx cars which almost nothing can touch.

The M3 is great at being an all around car and yes it challenges cars above, but the 911 is the bar and challenges almost anything above it especially in the case of the 991S. Its running on track at or better than most supercar. Even the Mclaren wasnt a better driver's car in MT's Best Drivers car this year.
No doubt how good the 911 is, I enjoy my GT3. The McLaren is an interesting argument. I've never driven nor rode in the MP-12C but it seems like a let down to anyone other than those fixed on stats. Too much tech for its own good?
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      01-17-2013, 05:24 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Dan-12TTRS View Post
ill take my 2012 RS interior and quality over any BMW south of $70,000 any day.

Those of you who say BMW has just the same quality interior as Audi are blind and lack any taste for refinement whatsoever!
Taste is subjective. I could say your are driving a $70,000 dollar chic car. The TT RS is Front drive biased which is even worse. The only thing cool about your car is the engine. But that is my opinion.

You can love your Audi all you want but don't attack BMW owners and say they have no taste or refinement it makes it look like you have none.

Last edited by buildbright; 01-17-2013 at 05:44 PM.
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      01-17-2013, 05:36 PM   #43
Year's_End
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ITT: peoples' misconception about faster being better when AWD is required for these kinds of numbers.

I hope M keeps their cars RWD and offers AWD as an option to the idiots that have to be faster than the guy next to them at a stoplight.
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      01-17-2013, 10:53 PM   #44
shivaswrath
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ugly from the side.
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