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      01-14-2013, 11:39 PM   #111
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The curves on those headers are scandalous.
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      01-14-2013, 11:44 PM   #112
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Deep.




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Originally Posted by Holander View Post
I hope long life, for these real M-engines. Bmw motorsport division is official dead, when last E92 M3 runs away. What older engineers, who build M88 M1 super engine, Brabham I4 over 1000bhp F1 engine and E30 M3 Dtm motorsport car will say these chipped N-series motors which badged on "M-engines" ? They cry lot before they go sleep..."///M, only marketing"
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      01-15-2013, 01:26 AM   #113
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You guys, this is the absolute epitomy of a modern day NA engine. From the breathing intake side you have an absolutely perfectly engineered intake path of force fed air with both ram features and cold-air features with no MAf and a big MAP sensor able to deal with large amounts and variances of volumes of air. Then you have a smooth wide open intake manifold path with perfectly spaced and sized intake trumpets leading to 8 ITB-an entire intake pack into the cylinders that has no weak spots or points of suffocation or limited air movement. You have the most efficient high compression ratio cylinder/piston setup making the very most out of each compression stroke and then you have the exhaust breathing out some of the best made headers that rival absolutely aNY aftermarket maker and is better than all aftermarket makers and these are oem.

Essentially you have zero weak spots in engine breathing and exhilation, especially when you put high flow cats or catless-the exhaust piping after the catless/HFc is so straight back with virtually no curves or bends the entire 'air pump" of this engine is just absolutely efficient.

The parasitic losses minimized with disconnected alternator and A/C on acceleration, variable output oill pump based on need and super light engine parts to decrease rotating mass and thus preserve parastic losses.

This machine then produces the finest looking power/torque graph out there, no matter what car you look at. Look at ferrari 360 or 430. NOWHERE near as nice of a curve with a flat torque line spanning 6k rpms and a dead straight linear power curve peaking at 8400 and still climbing if more rpms were given.

WIth the only restriction is regular air filter which can be replaced with a drop in aftermarket and the cats which can be removed with high flow cats/catless, and making sure you add enough octane to let it hit its lofty timing targets by using 94 octane or so, you have an engine in this form of 4 litres putting out 450 hp with thos minor breathing changes, cat delete and air filter change.

The advance knock system means it can ride the knock sensor so closely to always maximize the best timing and come as close to hitting max timing targets much more conssitently than a traditional knock sensor which is far less accurate.

Guys this engine is probably pound for pound the best engine ever made from a purely technological/engineering feat and excercise in making an ideal lightweight high revving v8.

I upped redline to 8700, upped timing targets a bit with Ess tune and a naturally aspirated 450 crank hp motor in a 3600 pound car is just a recipe for a huge win-Nothing will ever ever come close to the aural visceral feeling this car delivers. I promise you with each new generation,e videnced by the new m5/6, refinement takes over and those who have loved traditional M cars will realize a huge part of what makes getting into the M every day, is the raw feeling knowing the engineers built us a race bred monster engine inspiried by true racing pedgree-and now that is special.

SO many cars out performs this on a numbers game with forced inejction but pound for pound in NA form-few come close. Its easy to make big power but there is an art to doing it in such a way where the engine sings a song to you, has a certain feeling and creates an entire experience each time you drive that a regular brute turbo motor simply lacks and will never have.
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      01-15-2013, 07:41 AM   #114
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i concur.
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      01-15-2013, 07:53 AM   #115
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      01-15-2013, 09:21 AM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VCMpower View Post
Deep.
Yes, it´s deep maybe too deep , For example 1M is absolutely amazing car, but engine is not a masterpiece of engineering, like e46 M3. Just think how amazing work they do whit S54 N/A cylinder head ports, intake- and exhaust manifold to pull that like power and torque curves, N-series engine need 1bar exess pressure to got same power, 1M N-engine is maybe better an daily drive, so is turbo`s bad? It´s buyers choice.

But something on S-engines engineering, S54 engine piston speed is almost same that F1 engine, S54 got so low rod ratio, because low rod ratio means better torque on low rpms. But there is problem to solved. Inline six has massive vibrations on high rpms and low rod ratio makes it only worse, I think they need lots of knowledge on Procar M88 engines to handle it. So I think only Bmw Motorsport GMBH can make that like engine, this make`s that S54 engine is so special, like S14 motor.
There is still more potential, but emissions...Nowack pulls modificated S54 stunning numbers 404bhp at 8,300rpm and 407Nm torque at 4,200pm. That is 135bhp/litre. Engine runs normal 98 octane pump fuel.

Brabham F1 M12/13 turbo engine is good example, Coswort try to make same like I4 engine but they broke lots of engines in dyno, they cannot handle the vibrations. So only choice is change the engine layot on V6 turbo.

New F/I engines are better for fuel economy and makes lot´s of torque and power on low rpms, they are cheaper to made, but they aren´t so masterpiece of engineering.

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      01-15-2013, 07:49 PM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
I actually have all the S54 versions in full res, but not sure if I should post them here since not e9X content. Been reprimanded for posting e46 content in the e9X section before
Ohmygod I must have! I could only find one 1280 x 940 version. Could you PM them to me? Or post them in the E46 section? You can post them on M3forum too if that's more convenient. It's actually pretty cool seeing your presence over here. It's like seeing a rockstar at a country music festival. If that makes sense.
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      01-15-2013, 08:51 PM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goat Rodeo View Post
You can download the high res images from the BMW Press Club. Just click on the high-res link, download the ZIP, extract, and enjoy:

https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/press...docNo=P0033769

https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/press...docNo=P0033770

https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/press...docNo=P0033771

https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/press...docNo=P0033772

https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/press...docNo=P0033773

https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/press...docNo=P0033774

https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/press...docNo=P0033775

https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/press...docNo=P0033776

https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/press...docNo=P0033777

https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/press...docNo=P0033778

https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/press...docNo=P0033779

https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/press...docNo=P0033781

https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/press...docNo=P0033782

https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/press...docNo=P0033783

https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/press...docNo=P0033784

https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/press...docNo=P0033785

https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/press...docNo=P0033787

Here's the parts view that everyone wants:

https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/press...docNo=P0033789

S65 engine range is P0033769 to P0033792
Never knew about that press website, I'm going to be on there for hours. Thanks!
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      01-16-2013, 11:41 AM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emanresu View Post
Ohmygod I must have! I could only find one 1280 x 940 version. Could you PM them to me? Or post them in the E46 section? You can post them on M3forum too if that's more convenient. It's actually pretty cool seeing your presence over here. It's like seeing a rockstar at a country music festival. If that makes sense.
lol

I just stuck them all on my server: http://lindvigs.com/obioban/promo.zip
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      01-16-2013, 07:09 PM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Munit
It just pains me to see these beautiful pictures and it reminds me at how M engines are simply no longer works of art, crafted to the highest specs and to the maximum performance per liter by using "racing" technology such as ITB, high redline power delivery etc.

The S65 v8 and the s85 v10 are the two best engines bmw has ever produced in terms of technology, innovation and torque/power delivery. Especially the 65 which has THE flattest and most broad torque curve I have ever seen

Simply a well-engineered masterpiece with specs to pull out 104hp/litre naturally aspirated which is absolutely amazing.

The engines in the M cars now are found in all the M's in the line up right now practically and are derivatives of the regular 4.4l v8 turbo in non-m cars.

The technology is just so lacking compared to when they did naturally aspirated they had to really push the envelope to get more power out of the engine. It made the engine high strung which most of us love.

Even the headers-I have never seen a stock OEM car come with that good of quality of headers with no room for improvement. Also the absolutely brilliantly designed air-intake (not on the pics obviously) but it is a true engineering marvel.

I just think there will never be another M car that had the high level of technology precision, innovation or cutting edge racing tech

Turbo's make power so easily that you need limited tech. Not to say the M engines are not great but they did not even make wards ten best this year. The s85 and s65 won it 4 years in a row.

Anyway, brilliant engine, makes brilliant noise and performs better than anything short of a ferrari or supercar territory
Headers have no room for improvment?

Hahahahhahahahahaa yeah so the headers you can buy do nothing right?

Not to mention simple exhaust/intake/tune SMASHES past 104hp/liter, plus have you seen the proper custom ITB built s65's? THOSE are works of art
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      01-16-2013, 07:10 PM   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Holander
Quote:
Originally Posted by VCMpower View Post
Deep.
Yes, its deep maybe too deep , For example 1M is absolutely amazing car, but engine is not a masterpiece of engineering, like e46 M3. Just think how amazing work they do whit S54 N/A cylinder head ports, intake- and exhaust manifold to pull that like power and torque curves, N-series engine need 1bar exess pressure to got same power, 1M N-engine is maybe better an daily drive, so is turbo`s bad? Its buyers choice.

But something on S-engines engineering, S54 engine piston speed is almost same that F1 engine, S54 got so low rod ratio, because low rod ratio means better torque on low rpms. But there is problem to solved. Inline six has massive vibrations on high rpms and low rod ratio makes it only worse, I think they need lots of knowledge on Procar M88 engines to handle it. So I think only Bmw Motorsport GMBH can make that like engine, this make`s that S54 engine is so special, like S14 motor.
There is still more potential, but emissions...Nowack pulls modificated S54 stunning numbers 404bhp at 8,300rpm and 407Nm torque at 4,200pm. That is 135bhp/litre. Engine runs normal 98 octane pump fuel.

Brabham F1 M12/13 turbo engine is good example, Coswort try to make same like I4 engine but they broke lots of engines in dyno, they cannot handle the vibrations. So only choice is change the engine layot on V6 turbo.

New F/I engines are better for fuel economy and makes lots of torque and power on low rpms, they are cheaper to made, but they arent so masterpiece of engineering.
It's impossible for an inline 6 to have major vibrations at high rpm's as they're perfectly harmonically balanced

That's not how it works -_-
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      01-17-2013, 08:43 AM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flinchy View Post
It's impossible for an inline 6 to have major vibrations at high rpm's as they're perfectly harmonically balanced

That's not how it works -_-
I know what I am talking. Inline six have major harmonic vibrations on high rpms, because crank is so long (S54 have low rod ratio too). To handle vibrations S54 Block is made steel not aluminium and Crank and rod bearings are bigger than normal M5X engine.

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      01-17-2013, 11:55 AM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Holander View Post
I know what I am talking. Inline six have major harmonic vibrations on high rpms, because crank is so long (S54 have low rod ratio too). To handle vibrations S54 Block is made steel not aluminium and Crank and rod bearings are bigger than normal M5X engine.
This is correct.
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      01-17-2013, 12:13 PM   #124
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OP thanks for posting!
Goat Rodeo thanks for sharing link!
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      01-18-2013, 01:41 AM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Holander View Post
I know what I am talking. Inline six have major harmonic vibrations on high rpms, because crank is so long (S54 have low rod ratio too). To handle vibrations S54 Block is made steel not aluminium and Crank and rod bearings are bigger than normal M5X engine.
..... No

An engine that has primary and secondary harmonic balance CANNOT have a high rpm vibration unless the crank is improperly weighted which has nothing to do with the length

If they produced harmonic vibrations, they would have a balancer more like i4 or v6 or v8.

Inline 6 motors are popupar BECAUSE they have no issues at high rpm.. It's like saying a rotary has high rpm vibration issues because of balance. Totally laughable.
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      01-18-2013, 02:32 AM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flinchy View Post
Headers have no room for improvment?

Hahahahhahahahahaa yeah so the headers you can buy do nothing right?

Not to mention simple exhaust/intake/tune SMASHES past 104hp/liter, plus have you seen the proper custom ITB built s65's? THOSE are works of art
Who produces headers for e9x M3?

I know IND came on to say Motorsports 24 was "talking" about releasing headers but it's been two years since they have said anything about it

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...=611269&page=7

There is very little improvement to be had over stock headers
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      01-18-2013, 02:58 AM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic311 View Post
Who produces headers for e9x M3?

I know IND came on to say Motorsports 24 was "talking" about releasing headers but it's been two years since they have said anything about it

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...=611269&page=7

There is very little improvement to be had over stock headers
Is it really that hard?

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=s...&client=safari

Add 'dynos' to see there really is a decent amount to gain...

Change to 'e92 m3 headers' for slightly different results.
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      01-18-2013, 05:46 AM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flinchy View Post
..... No

An engine that has primary and secondary harmonic balance CANNOT have a high rpm vibration unless the crank is improperly weighted which has nothing to do with the length

If they produced harmonic vibrations, they would have a balancer more like i4 or v6 or v8.

Inline 6 motors are popupar BECAUSE they have no issues at high rpm.. It's like saying a rotary has high rpm vibration issues because of balance. Totally laughable.
If you don´t believe me, read here http://www.mye28.com/viewtopic.php?t=20933

" It's my understanding the biggest single challenge that Paul Rosch and the Motorsport engineers had was keeping the harmonic balances on the nose of the crankshaft healthy and on the engine. I've read the balancers would nearly be glowing from the heat induced due to the engine harmonics generated at high RPM. "

V8 or V6 is more better layot to make higrevving (10000-18000rpm) engine.

Last edited by Tåst; 01-18-2013 at 05:55 AM.
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      01-18-2013, 08:03 AM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Holander View Post
If you don´t believe me, read here http://www.mye28.com/viewtopic.php?t=20933

" It's my understanding the biggest single challenge that Paul Rosch and the Motorsport engineers had was keeping the harmonic balances on the nose of the crankshaft healthy and on the engine. I've read the balancers would nearly be glowing from the heat induced due to the engine harmonics generated at high RPM. "

V8 or V6 is more better layot to make higrevving (10000-18000rpm) engine.
highlighted bit..sorry, but no, i have to correct you. it's the OPPOSITE

V6's are inherently unbalanced engines, inline 6's are the balanced ones, the only reason V6's are used is they're more compact.

there's a reason you find supras and skylines (moreso skylines at ultra high) .. revving high

an RB26 can happily hit 11,000rpm with appropriate work
a 2jz can happily hit 9000-10,000RPM, BMW's M3 inline 6's can also happily rev their heads off no worries, near 8000rpm factory.


neither of those are difficult to achieve

high revving V6? LOL getting a V6 to not rattle itself to bits at 10,000RPM would be a MENTAL challenge.. the only reason a V8 can rev fairly high is they're generally larger bore shorter stroke setups and they have primary, but not secondary balance... inline 4's are the same, they are half balanced

the only time you'll ever see a V6 above 10k is in a full race spec car that won't really last more than a single race, everything toleranced to fractions of a gram.

i personalyl know of a lot of super high RPM inline 6's that are driven on the street, then on the track, then on the street, without ever having a single issue.

a V6 has NO BALANCE AT ALL.. same as an inline 3, ever driven a kei type car? (suzuki alto etc.).. at idle they SHAKE like a mofo, they're VERY not smooth.

this is another good link:

http://sportscarforums.com/f13/engin...ons-19748.html - some differences between V/I

ED: search for 'balance' in these articles, it's a perfect explanation.. erp linked straight to it for you

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V6_engi...and_smoothness

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straigh...and_smoothness

Last edited by flinchy; 01-18-2013 at 08:13 AM.
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      01-18-2013, 01:48 PM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flinchy View Post
Is it really that hard?

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=s...&client=safari

Add 'dynos' to see there really is a decent amount to gain...

Change to 'e92 m3 headers' for slightly different results.
You typed the same google search that I did and got the same result. If there is someone making them they certainly aren't popular.

FYI. http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=619188

Don't know what they are doing down under..but here no one is willing to pay thousands for something with little to no improvement over stock.

Xpipe and exhaust customization are where the gains are.
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      01-18-2013, 07:22 PM   #131
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Quote:
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You typed the same google search that I did and got the same result. If there is someone making them they certainly aren't popular.

FYI. http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=619188

Don't know what they are doing down under..but here no one is willing to pay thousands for something with little to no improvement over stock.

Xpipe and exhaust customization are where the gains are.
ummm


that thread is to do with testin POORLY DESIGNED headers... if you read the whole thing.

look at other tests, they show that headers are a major improvement, especially with forced induction.
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      01-20-2013, 02:15 AM   #132
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OP. Thanks a million for the post. Been in love with these high revving monster for over 20 years ever since owning my 1988 E30 M3 (Only 4 banger I knew putting out 200hp at the crank with technologies so far ahead of it's time. Everyone else was boosting). Making more power out of these NA marvels is clearly more challenging than any FI cars. I compare my M3 to 135 everyday, & the choice is clear, the M!(can't beat the power DELIVERY). After our last trip to Austin, TX for F1, and you the spec of an F1 car stating 2.4L V8 putting out almost 800hp, I had a beautiful grin on my face. Reminded me of very cars S2K, coswrth, and M engines. I'm leaving the heart of my beast alone and I'm going to keep working on the only thing I ever complained of, since getting the car, WEIGHT (Yes I'm nuts, but I'd spend 20K on tasteful weight loss for my ride before I'd spend 25K to stroke it + labor, especially since I track that beauty). So, thank you OP for reminding us of the Picasso that lies withing these awesome M cars.
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