tunes and type of fuel

[ms372]

for all the tuners, when the car is tuned to run on 94 octant does the 10% ethanol affect anything in the code ? or it doesn't really make a big difference?
and what are the main differences between the 94 tune and the 91?

[Roman@ESS]

Originally Posted by ms372

for all the tuners, when the car is tuned to run on 94 octant does the 10% ethanol affect anything in the code ? or it doesn't really make a big difference?
and what are the main differences between the 94 tune and the 91?

The M3 DME is an adaptive control system tuned or stock. It will always self adapt to the fuel being used in the vehicle. This includes the octane rating and quality of the fuel due to additives such as ethanol. You can vary the fuel used and the DME will adapt in an attempt to make as much power as it can while keeping the motor safe. This is why you see cars that run race gas typically gain power on the dyno without any changes to the tune.

[Mike Benvo]

+1 to what Roman said..

To elaborate however - the car is not going to advance timing past it's targeted limits at full throttle. So higher octane is most beneficial in extreme conditions (i.e, hot temperatures, high humidity, high altitude). In cold temperatures at sea level the car will hit its targets and higher octane won't do much, if anything. Then if you get a tune suited for the higher octane the car will pick up a lot of power.

There are also maps in the ECU which control the amount of timing pull that is allowed, etc.. In fact, there are tons of maps that are ignition related, it's basically one whole side of the DME.

[Vic311]

Originally Posted by Mike Benvo

+1 to what Roman said..

To elaborate however - the car is not going to advance timing past it's targeted limits at full throttle. So higher octane is most beneficial in extreme conditions (i.e, hot temperatures, high humidity, high altitude). In cold temperatures at sea level the car will hit its targets and higher octane won't do much, if anything. Then if you get a tune suited for the higher octane the car will pick up a lot of power.

There are also maps in the ECU which control the amount of timing pull that is allowed, etc.. In fact, there are tons of maps that are ignition related, it's basically one whole side of the DME.

Are your tunes setup to take advantage of higher octane? (like race fuel not 93) Or is this something that one would have to request?

[THE TECH]

Originally Posted by Vic311

Are your tunes setup to take advantage of higher octane? (like race fuel not 93) Or is this something that one would have to request?

Our tunes are based on the fuel that the customer will be using on a daily basis. We tailor each to what they prefer.

[Sal@Evolve]

You cannot exceed optimal ignition however. No matter what fuel is used.

The ignition targets set by the factory are quite radical to start with for a production car and this is really down to the excellent knock detection system.

The type of fuel is not just restricted to ignition timing....

[m33]

Bro ..... Roman said it best, it's all target based and will self adapt to the set minimum/maximum perimeters, SAFELY.
That's all you need to know but just incase you want to know more The TECH & BENVO are always eager to explain more in Depth

[Mike Benvo]

Originally Posted by m33

Bro ..... Roman said it best, it's all target based and will self adapt to the set minimum/maximum perimeters, SAFELY.
That's all you need to know but just incase you want to know more The TECH & BENVO are always eager to explain more in Depth

Wrong.

If you set targets that are too high, and you are outside of the DME's programmed adaptable range of retard, then the car will run that timing even though it's knocking. Is a knocking engine safe? No.

There are also 'minimum timing' maps which signify the minimum timing that can be run.

But thanks for chiming in.

Edit: Comment about PG removed.

Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve

You cannot exceed optimal ignition however. No matter what fuel is used.

The ignition targets set by the factory are quite radical to start with for a production car and this is really down to the excellent knock detection system.

The type of fuel is not just restricted to ignition timing....

Absolutely correct.

[Vic311]

Originally Posted by Mike Benvo

Wrong.

If you set targets that are too high, and you are outside of the DME's programmed adaptable range of retard, then the car will run that timing even though it's knocking. Is a knocking engine safe? No.

There are also 'minimum timing' maps which signify the minimum timing that can be run.

But thanks for chiming in.

Originally Posted by THE TECH

Our tunes are based on the fuel that the customer will be using on a daily basis. We tailor each to what they prefer.

Ok so if I use 91 everyday but decide to use 100 occassionaly. Will the DME with your tunes be able to take advantage of it? Or does this require a specific race fuel tune?

[Mike Benvo]

Originally Posted by Vic311

Ok so if I use 91 everyday but decide to use 100 occassionaly. Will the DME with your tunes be able to take advantage of it? Or does this require a specific race fuel tune?

It depends on the conditions. Depends if the car is achieving its targets on 91 or if it's pulling back ignition.

Some customers request a higher octane tune for when race gas is used.

[m33]

Originally Posted by Mike Benvo

Wrong.

If you set targets that are too high, and you are outside of the DME's programmed adaptable range of retard, then the car will run that timing even though it's knocking. Is a knocking engine safe? No.

There are also 'minimum timing' maps which signify the minimum timing that can be run.

But thanks for chiming in.

Oh, and while you're at it, ask your friend Pencilgeek why he refuses to put my dynos in his dynodb

Absolutely correct.

Explaining something that's simple in circles gets old and annoying .
What I was saying was rather clear until you put on you superhero tuner outfit on and twisted it
When you set parameters you set them within safe range/margin ....

Go ahead have fun twisting this again and show everybody what the new kid on the block can do

[Mike Benvo]

Originally Posted by m33

Explaining something that's simple in circles gets old and annoying .
What I was saying was rather clear until you put on you superhero tuner outfit on and twisted it
When you set parameters you set them within safe range/margin ....

Go ahead have fun twisting this again and show everybody what the new kid on the block can do

I think 'parameters' was a better word choice than 'perimeters' in your previous post. Glad you got it right now.

Oh sorry, I'm acting like you. Shame on me. Excuse Sal and I for sharing pertinent information.

Thanks

[m33]

Originally Posted by Mike Benvo

I think 'parameters' was a better word choice than 'perimeters' in your previous post. Glad you got it right now.

Oh sorry, I'm acting like you. Shame on me.

Thanks

Good to know that you knew what I meant

I stand corrected "PARAMETERS" ...
Silly me

[Vic311]

Originally Posted by Vic311

Ok so if I use 91 everyday but decide to use 100 occassionaly. Will the DME with your tunes be able to take advantage of it? Or does this require a specific race fuel tune?

Not fully getting what I am asking

Assuming targets are being reached on 91 and optimal conditions to run higher advance. Will your tune have the range to take advantage of 100 octane race fuel. It sounds what you are saying is that it would require a 100 tune that I could not run 91 on. Can you please elaborate?

Not sure if you had flashloader capabilities that could switch between maps on the fly.

[Mike Benvo]

Originally Posted by Vic311

Not fully getting what I am asking

Assuming targets are being reached on 91 and optimal conditions to run higher advance. Will your tune have the range to take advantage of 100 octane race fuel. It sounds what you are saying is that it would require a 100 tune that I could not run 91 on. Can you please elaborate?

Not sure if you had flashloader capabilities that could switch between maps on the fly.

What you're asking for is a tune that is tailored for the the worst and best fuel available. We don't monkey around with timing adaptation limits.

We ask what octane you run for a reason. If you want to run 100 octane, you can flash in a file suited for that in 5 minutes. Running 91 octane on a file suited for 100 is not a good idea.

Running 100 octane on a file programmed for 91 is not going to take full advantage of the 100.

I hope this answers your question.

[Vic311]

Originally Posted by Mike Benvo

What you're asking for is a tune that is tailored for the the worst and best fuel available. We don't monkey around with timing adaptation limits.

We ask what octane you run for a reason. If you want to run 100 octane, you can flash in a file suited for that in 5 minutes. Running 91 octane on a file suited for 100 is not a good idea.

Running 100 octane on a file programmed for 91 is not going to take full advantage of the 100.

I hope this answers your question.

This does answer my question, thanks

so the missing link for me, would be the ability to run both maps and switch on the fly. Is that something you guys have done?

[ms372]

Originally Posted by Roman@ESS

The M3 DME is an adaptive control system tuned or stock. It will always self adapt to the fuel being used in the vehicle. This includes the octane rating and quality of the fuel due to additives such as ethanol. You can vary the fuel used and the DME will adapt in an attempt to make as much power as it can while keeping the motor safe. This is why you see cars that run race gas typically gain power on the dyno without any changes to the tune.

Roman,when i got my tune i have mentioned that the fuel i use is 94. do you accommodate that when doing a tune to extra more power or you dont need to as the DME already adapts to it ? so is there anything call a 94 tune for an e92 m3 basically, or its the same thing as 91 tune because the DME will adapt to the higher grade.

[redline9001]

Originally Posted by Vic311

This does answer my question, thanks

so the missing link for me, would be the ability to run both maps and switch on the fly. Is that something you guys have done?

If you mean to switch maps on the fly... Aka Vishnu , that is something outside of the stock DME, best the stock DME can do a upload of a new file with the car off. If you want the ability you need a piggy back, or Stand alone.

[img]

Originally Posted by Mike Benvo

Wrong.

If you set targets that are too high, and you are outside of the DME's programmed adaptable range of retard, then the car will run that timing even though it's knocking. Is a knocking engine safe? No.

There are also 'minimum timing' maps which signify the minimum timing that can be run.

But thanks for chiming in.

Oh, and while you're at it, ask your friend Pencilgeek why he refuses to put my dynos in his dynodb



Absolutely correct.

Hey Mike, I probably talk to PG more than Zim, so I'll be happy to ask him. But before I do, what makes you think he's refused to put in your entries in the dynodb and should I still post a response if it's one you don't like to hear?

[Mike Benvo]

Originally Posted by Vic311

This does answer my question, thanks

so the missing link for me, would be the ability to run both maps and switch on the fly. Is that something you guys have done?

Unfortunately that's outside of the scope of the MSS60 Control unit. You'll need something aftermarket like a piggyback to achieve something like that.

My 7 series does it but it uses a standalone ECU.

Originally Posted by img

Hey Mike, I probably talk to PG more than Zim, so I'll be happy to ask him. But before I do, what makes you think he's refused to put in your entries in the dynodb and should I still post a response if it's one you don't like to hear?

Thanks for the offer. To be honest I really don't care. I texted him about it awhile back and never got a response. It doesn't matter to me so lets take it to PM or let it be.

[///M Rakete]

Originally Posted by Mike Benvo

It depends on the conditions. Depends if the car is achieving its targets on 91 or if it's pulling back ignition.

Some customers request a higher octane tune for when race gas is used.

As I recall my car was retarding significantly on 91. I probably could have stuck with a stock, so called 91-based tune but went with a 93 octane (I don't think 94) version because I now regular blend Sunoco or VP Racing 100 with regular pump 91. I suppose during our current cold weather the performance would have come through even with 91 octane. The good news is that come this summer I should still get comparable performance.

It's a challenge to not bounce off the rev limiter. The nice thing is that doing so is not brutal, just annoying.

[mhabs]

Seems to not be prevalent anymore, but there used to be flashloader units that had far less functionality vs the new laptop driven software but you could switch between up to 10 different tunes. Did this with ESS and although more arcane vs using new laptop software, extremely convenient to reflash tunes (takes about 10-15 mins to do this), especially on the go (can keep in your glovebox).

Originally Posted by Vic311

Not sure if you had flashloader capabilities that could switch between maps on the fly.