BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > E90/E92 M3 Technical Topics > Engine, Transmission, Exhaust, Drivetrain, ECU Software Modifications
 
INDustry distribution
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      01-14-2013, 09:29 AM   #1
ms372
White Shark
 
ms372's Avatar
 
Drives: AW E92 m3 6MT
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Montreal

Posts: 873
iTrader: (0)

tunes and type of fuel

for all the tuners, when the car is tuned to run on 94 octant does the 10% ethanol affect anything in the code ? or it doesn't really make a big difference?
and what are the main differences between the 94 tune and the 91?
__________________
ESS | Challenge x-pipe | Akrapovic | Stoptech BBK (380/355) |Ohlins R&T | Dinan | Vorsteiner | Downforce USA | Varis Diffuser | Gintani | UUC | BMW Performance | Macht Schnell | Forgestar F14's SDC 19x9.5F 19x11R | 255.35 295.30

ms372 is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      01-14-2013, 11:27 AM   #2
Roman@ESS
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor

 
Roman@ESS's Avatar
 
Drives: ESS Supercharged E92 M3
Join Date: May 2007
Location: AZ

Posts: 2,433
iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ms372 View Post
for all the tuners, when the car is tuned to run on 94 octant does the 10% ethanol affect anything in the code ? or it doesn't really make a big difference?
and what are the main differences between the 94 tune and the 91?
The M3 DME is an adaptive control system tuned or stock. It will always self adapt to the fuel being used in the vehicle. This includes the octane rating and quality of the fuel due to additives such as ethanol. You can vary the fuel used and the DME will adapt in an attempt to make as much power as it can while keeping the motor safe. This is why you see cars that run race gas typically gain power on the dyno without any changes to the tune.
Roman@ESS is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-14-2013, 06:44 PM   #3
Mike Benvo
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor

 
Mike Benvo's Avatar
 
Drives: 08 E90 M3 / 400whp Turbo 7
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: SoCal

Posts: 4,303
iTrader: (6)

Garage List
1990 BMW 735i Turbo  [5.00]
2004 BMW M3  [0.00]
2008 BMW M3  [5.00]
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Benvo
+1 to what Roman said..

To elaborate however - the car is not going to advance timing past it's targeted limits at full throttle. So higher octane is most beneficial in extreme conditions (i.e, hot temperatures, high humidity, high altitude). In cold temperatures at sea level the car will hit its targets and higher octane won't do much, if anything. Then if you get a tune suited for the higher octane the car will pick up a lot of power.

There are also maps in the ECU which control the amount of timing pull that is allowed, etc.. In fact, there are tons of maps that are ignition related, it's basically one whole side of the DME.
__________________

-----| Like us on Facebook | Instagram || Tuning Information | Remote Coding |-----
----Visit us at www.BPMSport.com - Emotion. Driven. | Toll Free: (888) 557-5133----
Mike Benvo is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-14-2013, 07:02 PM   #4
Vic311
Major
 
Vic311's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 e92 M3
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: NY

Posts: 1,314
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Benvo View Post
+1 to what Roman said..

To elaborate however - the car is not going to advance timing past it's targeted limits at full throttle. So higher octane is most beneficial in extreme conditions (i.e, hot temperatures, high humidity, high altitude). In cold temperatures at sea level the car will hit its targets and higher octane won't do much, if anything. Then if you get a tune suited for the higher octane the car will pick up a lot of power.

There are also maps in the ECU which control the amount of timing pull that is allowed, etc.. In fact, there are tons of maps that are ignition related, it's basically one whole side of the DME.
Are your tunes setup to take advantage of higher octane? (like race fuel not 93) Or is this something that one would have to request?
Vic311 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-14-2013, 07:04 PM   #5
THE TECH
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor

 
THE TECH's Avatar
 
Drives: BPMsport 2012 E92 M3
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Kansas

Posts: 12,567
iTrader: (39)

Garage List
Send a message via AIM to THE TECH Send a message via Skype™ to THE TECH
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic311 View Post
Are your tunes setup to take advantage of higher octane? (like race fuel not 93) Or is this something that one would have to request?
Our tunes are based on the fuel that the customer will be using on a daily basis. We tailor each to what they prefer.
__________________
THE TECH is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-14-2013, 08:08 PM   #6
Sal@Evolve
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor

 
Drives: Slow
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Luton, Bedfordshire

Posts: 1,055
iTrader: (0)

You cannot exceed optimal ignition however. No matter what fuel is used.

The ignition targets set by the factory are quite radical to start with for a production car and this is really down to the excellent knock detection system.

The type of fuel is not just restricted to ignition timing....
Sal@Evolve is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-14-2013, 08:14 PM   #7
m33
Banned
 
m33's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 VT650 MCB Individual
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: CT

Posts: 2,697
iTrader: (5)

Bro ..... Roman said it best, it's all target based and will self adapt to the set minimum/maximum perimeters, SAFELY.
That's all you need to know but just incase you want to know more The TECH & BENVO are always eager to explain more in Depth
m33 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-14-2013, 08:39 PM   #8
Mike Benvo
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor

 
Mike Benvo's Avatar
 
Drives: 08 E90 M3 / 400whp Turbo 7
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: SoCal

Posts: 4,303
iTrader: (6)

Garage List
1990 BMW 735i Turbo  [5.00]
2004 BMW M3  [0.00]
2008 BMW M3  [5.00]
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Benvo
Quote:
Originally Posted by m33 View Post
Bro ..... Roman said it best, it's all target based and will self adapt to the set minimum/maximum perimeters, SAFELY.
That's all you need to know but just incase you want to know more The TECH & BENVO are always eager to explain more in Depth
Wrong.

If you set targets that are too high, and you are outside of the DME's programmed adaptable range of retard, then the car will run that timing even though it's knocking. Is a knocking engine safe? No.

There are also 'minimum timing' maps which signify the minimum timing that can be run.

But thanks for chiming in.

Edit: Comment about PG removed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve View Post
You cannot exceed optimal ignition however. No matter what fuel is used.

The ignition targets set by the factory are quite radical to start with for a production car and this is really down to the excellent knock detection system.

The type of fuel is not just restricted to ignition timing....
Absolutely correct.
__________________

-----| Like us on Facebook | Instagram || Tuning Information | Remote Coding |-----
----Visit us at www.BPMSport.com - Emotion. Driven. | Toll Free: (888) 557-5133----

Last edited by Mike Benvo; 01-15-2013 at 05:45 PM.
Mike Benvo is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-14-2013, 08:43 PM   #9
Vic311
Major
 
Vic311's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 e92 M3
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: NY

Posts: 1,314
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Benvo View Post
Wrong.

If you set targets that are too high, and you are outside of the DME's programmed adaptable range of retard, then the car will run that timing even though it's knocking. Is a knocking engine safe? No.

There are also 'minimum timing' maps which signify the minimum timing that can be run.

But thanks for chiming in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by THE TECH View Post
Our tunes are based on the fuel that the customer will be using on a daily basis. We tailor each to what they prefer.
Ok so if I use 91 everyday but decide to use 100 occassionaly. Will the DME with your tunes be able to take advantage of it? Or does this require a specific race fuel tune?
Vic311 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-14-2013, 08:48 PM   #10
Mike Benvo
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor

 
Mike Benvo's Avatar
 
Drives: 08 E90 M3 / 400whp Turbo 7
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: SoCal

Posts: 4,303
iTrader: (6)

Garage List
1990 BMW 735i Turbo  [5.00]
2004 BMW M3  [0.00]
2008 BMW M3  [5.00]
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Benvo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic311 View Post
Ok so if I use 91 everyday but decide to use 100 occassionaly. Will the DME with your tunes be able to take advantage of it? Or does this require a specific race fuel tune?
It depends on the conditions. Depends if the car is achieving its targets on 91 or if it's pulling back ignition.

Some customers request a higher octane tune for when race gas is used.
__________________

-----| Like us on Facebook | Instagram || Tuning Information | Remote Coding |-----
----Visit us at www.BPMSport.com - Emotion. Driven. | Toll Free: (888) 557-5133----
Mike Benvo is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-14-2013, 09:03 PM   #11
m33
Banned
 
m33's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 VT650 MCB Individual
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: CT

Posts: 2,697
iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Benvo
Quote:
Originally Posted by m33 View Post
Bro ..... Roman said it best, it's all target based and will self adapt to the set minimum/maximum perimeters, SAFELY.
That's all you need to know but just incase you want to know more The TECH & BENVO are always eager to explain more in Depth
Wrong.

If you set targets that are too high, and you are outside of the DME's programmed adaptable range of retard, then the car will run that timing even though it's knocking. Is a knocking engine safe? No.

There are also 'minimum timing' maps which signify the minimum timing that can be run.

But thanks for chiming in.

Oh, and while you're at it, ask your friend Pencilgeek why he refuses to put my dynos in his dynodb

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve View Post
You cannot exceed optimal ignition however. No matter what fuel is used.

The ignition targets set by the factory are quite radical to start with for a production car and this is really down to the excellent knock detection system.

The type of fuel is not just restricted to ignition timing....
Absolutely correct.
Explaining something that's simple in circles gets old and annoying .
What I was saying was rather clear until you put on you superhero tuner outfit on and twisted it
When you set parameters you set them within safe range/margin ....

Go ahead have fun twisting this again and show everybody what the new kid on the block can do
m33 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-14-2013, 09:08 PM   #12
Mike Benvo
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor

 
Mike Benvo's Avatar
 
Drives: 08 E90 M3 / 400whp Turbo 7
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: SoCal

Posts: 4,303
iTrader: (6)

Garage List
1990 BMW 735i Turbo  [5.00]
2004 BMW M3  [0.00]
2008 BMW M3  [5.00]
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Benvo
Quote:
Originally Posted by m33 View Post
Explaining something that's simple in circles gets old and annoying .
What I was saying was rather clear until you put on you superhero tuner outfit on and twisted it
When you set parameters you set them within safe range/margin ....

Go ahead have fun twisting this again and show everybody what the new kid on the block can do
I think 'parameters' was a better word choice than 'perimeters' in your previous post. Glad you got it right now.

Oh sorry, I'm acting like you. Shame on me. Excuse Sal and I for sharing pertinent information.

Thanks
__________________

-----| Like us on Facebook | Instagram || Tuning Information | Remote Coding |-----
----Visit us at www.BPMSport.com - Emotion. Driven. | Toll Free: (888) 557-5133----
Mike Benvo is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-14-2013, 09:18 PM   #13
m33
Banned
 
m33's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 VT650 MCB Individual
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: CT

Posts: 2,697
iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Benvo
Quote:
Originally Posted by m33 View Post
Explaining something that's simple in circles gets old and annoying .
What I was saying was rather clear until you put on you superhero tuner outfit on and twisted it
When you set parameters you set them within safe range/margin ....

Go ahead have fun twisting this again and show everybody what the new kid on the block can do
I think 'parameters' was a better word choice than 'perimeters' in your previous post. Glad you got it right now.

Oh sorry, I'm acting like you. Shame on me.

Thanks
Good to know that you knew what I meant

I stand corrected "PARAMETERS" ...
Silly me
m33 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-14-2013, 09:21 PM   #14
Vic311
Major
 
Vic311's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 e92 M3
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: NY

Posts: 1,314
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic311 View Post
Ok so if I use 91 everyday but decide to use 100 occassionaly. Will the DME with your tunes be able to take advantage of it? Or does this require a specific race fuel tune?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Benvo View Post
It depends on the conditions. Depends if the car is achieving its targets on 91 or if it's pulling back ignition.

Some customers request a higher octane tune for when race gas is used.
Not fully getting what I am asking

Assuming targets are being reached on 91 and optimal conditions to run higher advance. Will your tune have the range to take advantage of 100 octane race fuel. It sounds what you are saying is that it would require a 100 tune that I could not run 91 on. Can you please elaborate?

Not sure if you had flashloader capabilities that could switch between maps on the fly.
Vic311 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-14-2013, 09:33 PM   #15
Mike Benvo
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor

 
Mike Benvo's Avatar
 
Drives: 08 E90 M3 / 400whp Turbo 7
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: SoCal

Posts: 4,303
iTrader: (6)

Garage List
1990 BMW 735i Turbo  [5.00]
2004 BMW M3  [0.00]
2008 BMW M3  [5.00]
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Benvo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic311 View Post
Not fully getting what I am asking

Assuming targets are being reached on 91 and optimal conditions to run higher advance. Will your tune have the range to take advantage of 100 octane race fuel. It sounds what you are saying is that it would require a 100 tune that I could not run 91 on. Can you please elaborate?

Not sure if you had flashloader capabilities that could switch between maps on the fly.
What you're asking for is a tune that is tailored for the the worst and best fuel available. We don't monkey around with timing adaptation limits.

We ask what octane you run for a reason. If you want to run 100 octane, you can flash in a file suited for that in 5 minutes. Running 91 octane on a file suited for 100 is not a good idea.

Running 100 octane on a file programmed for 91 is not going to take full advantage of the 100.

I hope this answers your question.
__________________

-----| Like us on Facebook | Instagram || Tuning Information | Remote Coding |-----
----Visit us at www.BPMSport.com - Emotion. Driven. | Toll Free: (888) 557-5133----
Mike Benvo is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-14-2013, 09:47 PM   #16
Vic311
Major
 
Vic311's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 e92 M3
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: NY

Posts: 1,314
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Benvo View Post
What you're asking for is a tune that is tailored for the the worst and best fuel available. We don't monkey around with timing adaptation limits.

We ask what octane you run for a reason. If you want to run 100 octane, you can flash in a file suited for that in 5 minutes. Running 91 octane on a file suited for 100 is not a good idea.

Running 100 octane on a file programmed for 91 is not going to take full advantage of the 100.

I hope this answers your question.
This does answer my question, thanks

so the missing link for me, would be the ability to run both maps and switch on the fly. Is that something you guys have done?
Vic311 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-14-2013, 10:34 PM   #17
ms372
White Shark
 
ms372's Avatar
 
Drives: AW E92 m3 6MT
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Montreal

Posts: 873
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roman@ESS View Post
The M3 DME is an adaptive control system tuned or stock. It will always self adapt to the fuel being used in the vehicle. This includes the octane rating and quality of the fuel due to additives such as ethanol. You can vary the fuel used and the DME will adapt in an attempt to make as much power as it can while keeping the motor safe. This is why you see cars that run race gas typically gain power on the dyno without any changes to the tune.
Roman,when i got my tune i have mentioned that the fuel i use is 94. do you accommodate that when doing a tune to extra more power or you dont need to as the DME already adapts to it ? so is there anything call a 94 tune for an e92 m3 basically, or its the same thing as 91 tune because the DME will adapt to the higher grade.
__________________
ESS | Challenge x-pipe | Akrapovic | Stoptech BBK (380/355) |Ohlins R&T | Dinan | Vorsteiner | Downforce USA | Varis Diffuser | Gintani | UUC | BMW Performance | Macht Schnell | Forgestar F14's SDC 19x9.5F 19x11R | 255.35 295.30

ms372 is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      01-14-2013, 10:41 PM   #18
redline9001
Captain
 
redline9001's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3, MDX, Titan
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Calgary, Canada

Posts: 601
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic311 View Post
This does answer my question, thanks

so the missing link for me, would be the ability to run both maps and switch on the fly. Is that something you guys have done?
If you mean to switch maps on the fly... Aka Vishnu , that is something outside of the stock DME, best the stock DME can do a upload of a new file with the car off. If you want the ability you need a piggy back, or Stand alone.
__________________
2011 E92 M3 | JEREZ BLACK | EXTENDED BAMBOO NOVILLO | EXECUTIVE PKG | M-DRIVE | EDC | M-DCT
MODS | KW S/O | HRE P40SC | Akra Evo |ESS Akra Tune | BMC drop in | StopTech Trophies | TMS Pulley | LUX V3
redline9001 is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      01-14-2013, 10:59 PM   #19
IMG
VT3
 
IMG's Avatar
 
Drives: E36 M3 Track car,Ess E90 M3 DD
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: The Couch

Posts: 6,862
iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Benvo View Post
Wrong.

If you set targets that are too high, and you are outside of the DME's programmed adaptable range of retard, then the car will run that timing even though it's knocking. Is a knocking engine safe? No.

There are also 'minimum timing' maps which signify the minimum timing that can be run.

But thanks for chiming in.

Oh, and while you're at it, ask your friend Pencilgeek why he refuses to put my dynos in his dynodb



Absolutely correct.
Hey Mike, I probably talk to PG more than Zim, so I'll be happy to ask him. But before I do, what makes you think he's refused to put in your entries in the dynodb and should I still post a response if it's one you don't like to hear?
__________________
NO FEAR.NO LIMITS.NO EQUAL

Ess VT3 LC built motor,Volk TE37SL,Euro taillights,Dinan Xpipe,Custom Headers,Akra axle back CF tips,ModeCarbon FR lip,BMW CF wing
LOW BOOST 60-130 6.7 sec
IMG is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-14-2013, 11:16 PM   #20
Mike Benvo
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor

 
Mike Benvo's Avatar
 
Drives: 08 E90 M3 / 400whp Turbo 7
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: SoCal

Posts: 4,303
iTrader: (6)

Garage List
1990 BMW 735i Turbo  [5.00]
2004 BMW M3  [0.00]
2008 BMW M3  [5.00]
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Benvo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic311 View Post
This does answer my question, thanks

so the missing link for me, would be the ability to run both maps and switch on the fly. Is that something you guys have done?
Unfortunately that's outside of the scope of the MSS60 Control unit. You'll need something aftermarket like a piggyback to achieve something like that.

My 7 series does it but it uses a standalone ECU.

Quote:
Originally Posted by img View Post
Hey Mike, I probably talk to PG more than Zim, so I'll be happy to ask him. But before I do, what makes you think he's refused to put in your entries in the dynodb and should I still post a response if it's one you don't like to hear?
Thanks for the offer. To be honest I really don't care. I texted him about it awhile back and never got a response. It doesn't matter to me so lets take it to PM or let it be.
__________________

-----| Like us on Facebook | Instagram || Tuning Information | Remote Coding |-----
----Visit us at www.BPMSport.com - Emotion. Driven. | Toll Free: (888) 557-5133----
Mike Benvo is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-14-2013, 11:19 PM   #21
///M Rakete
Rocket Scientist
 
///M Rakete's Avatar
 
Drives: BMW 2010 M3 Coupe
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: California

Posts: 850
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Benvo View Post
It depends on the conditions. Depends if the car is achieving its targets on 91 or if it's pulling back ignition.

Some customers request a higher octane tune for when race gas is used.
As I recall my car was retarding significantly on 91. I probably could have stuck with a stock, so called 91-based tune but went with a 93 octane (I don't think 94) version because I now regular blend Sunoco or VP Racing 100 with regular pump 91. I suppose during our current cold weather the performance would have come through even with 91 octane. The good news is that come this summer I should still get comparable performance.

It's a challenge to not bounce off the rev limiter. The nice thing is that doing so is not brutal, just annoying.
__________________
2010 BMW M3 Coupe M-DCT w/Tech-EDC, BMW M Performance Exhaust, BPM: Stage I / Euro MDM / DCT / Steering, Space Gray / Fox Red Extended, and a Trunk Monkey known as "Der Stig", plus the daily driver...
2011 BMW 135i M Sport DCT, w/BMW Performance Power Kit, Exhaust, and Brake Rotors, Space Gray / Coral Red, known as "Stiggie" with an outlaw F20 "M135i" badge.
///M Rakete is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-15-2013, 12:47 AM   #22
FogCityM3
Major
 
FogCityM3's Avatar
 
Drives: M3 (E90)
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: San Francisco

Posts: 1,090
iTrader: (0)

Seems to not be prevalent anymore, but there used to be flashloader units that had far less functionality vs the new laptop driven software but you could switch between up to 10 different tunes. Did this with ESS and although more arcane vs using new laptop software, extremely convenient to reflash tunes (takes about 10-15 mins to do this), especially on the go (can keep in your glovebox).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic311 View Post

Not sure if you had flashloader capabilities that could switch between maps on the fly.
FogCityM3 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:16 PM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST