Proposal to determine winner of the tuner wars

[Sal@Evolve]

Cams.... We like those!

It is a time consuming process to generate a calibration for cams.
We have done lots of S62's with schrick cams and The results can be found on m5board. Be prepared to be surprised.
We tune a large number of road and race S54's with cams in the UK.
S65's follow the exact same principle. We did one car in Dubai some time back but who ever fitted the cams got the cam timing wrong.

With cams it is all about fuel and vanos timing.
The vanos tuning must be done on a dyno and that's after a well prepared initial calculated profile is created by the tuner.
Fuelling for partial load even on a target based dme is not as easy as it sounds.
there is the ignition timing and too often tuners use way too much with cams.

Finally, adjustment to torque maps, idle speed, fuel enrichment maps etc all need adjusting slightly and then you are done.
Datalogging is an absolute must during this type of process.

We have a very special s65 engine being delivered to us soon. Cams + modified cylinder heads + custom headers.
This is where things start getting real interesting.

Cams should be fitted by someone who knows what they are doing and has the correct tools.

[BMWJ]

Originally Posted by Mike Benvo

Any competent tuner should be able to tune the car for different camshafts on the dyno.

Pretty easy - only 4 vanos maps. Inlet cam warm and cold, and exhaust cam warm and cold. You can change the scaling on the axis if you need more definition in certain areas. The camshaft maps are in targeted degrees, so you can designate where you want the cam to move based on RPM and load.

Tuned an RDSport stroker a couple months ago and the owner couldn't believe the difference after driving the car.

I think this whole tuner war idea is stupid personally. As I've said a million times before, chasing numbers is a waste of time. Comparing dynos is a waste of time. Looking at DELTAS on the SAME car is the only measure of value.

You might have a car make 400whp on one dyno and 350whp on another. There are simply too many variables at play. Dyno operators can also skew results in their favor, which is why I ALWAYS use a third party to run the dyno, and have no involvement myself.

You can make a dyno queen that will make more power by desensitizing knock sensors and a few other tricks. Will the power stay there? No.

So who wins the war? The car that puts down 400whp on the dyno and a week later makes less than stock? Or the car that does 385whp consistently and reliably over long periods of time? Too much focus on pure numbers instead of delta gains. Too much focus on numbers instead of smoothness and drivability. Too much focus on WOT when you spend 90% of the time driving in part throttle. Tuning this DME is not rocket science, it's a matter of having the factory information and knowing what to do with it. I bet most tuners don't have some of the factory information that I do.

All I care is that all of my customers are happy, and I can say without a doubt that I haven't had a single complaint. I've retuned cars with various other software time and time again with nothing but positive results.

I still need to post in that 400whp thread when I have time to address a few comments in there. But for now I'm going to enjoy my last night in Las Vegas and get to that when I return to LA.

Stop wasting your time chasing numbers. It makes zero sense. Enjoy your car and your mods instead, whichever tuner you decide to go with.

Great post...

Unfortunately for tuners, most tunes are bought based off numbers. Or you have to spend hundreds of hours on the forum convincing people that numbers aren't the most important until you get a loyal following.

[flipm3]

Here's a question for anyone to answer in regards to tuning cams.

As we all know, it's one thing to tune for proper safe and consistent power on the dyno. With remote tuning, how can one address the tuning for part-throttle and daily drivability?

With many of the top tuners being all over the world, it's obviously not always feasible to have them physically in the car for tuning. Cams add quite a different dimension in regards to how the engine works, so I assume that drivability has to be greatly considered with tuning.

How can this be addressed to assure stock like drivability?

Originally Posted by Mike Benvo

Really looking forward to this. Based off my experience with the E60 M5, there is undoubtedly room on the table for an S65 with cams + proper tuning.

I'm really considering them for my car too.. but for now, I have about 48K on the clock and full warranty + maintenance until April of 2014. I can't justify pulling the motor apart until I'm in the warranty free zone.

I had custom FI cams made by Schrick for my supercharged 330 and it made a gigantic difference. My Turbo 7 series also has a custom camshaft for the GT35 BB turbo I'm running on it at 14 PSI. I can see cams in the future for the M3 too. I remember back in the day seeing great videos of E46 M3's with cams revving to 9,000 RPM.

I think we need to start a petition for 93+ octane gas here in CA. It's either have nice weather and 91, or not the best weather and 93. I guess you can't win every battle!

I totally feel ya on the warranty. My E90 M3 has extended warranty... Hopefully my car's main bearings need replacement under warranty to make it worth while...hahaha

Custom cams from Schrick sounds all sorts of sexy for any car!

Yes...you guys really need some 93 Octane...badly.

Originally Posted by img

Thank You Sir,It should be interesting
May be i will do cams soon too to get a little more power

DO IT!!!! Make it an ESS VT3-725++ hehe.

I'll keep an eye out for your upcoming thread on your buddy's car!

Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve

Cams.... We like those!

It is a time consuming process to generate a calibration for cams.
We have done lots of S62's with schrick cams and The results can be found on m5board. Be prepared to be surprised.
We tune a large number of road and race S54's with cams in the UK.
S65's follow the exact same principle. We did one car in Dubai some time back but who ever fitted the cams got the cam timing wrong.

With cams it is all about fuel and vanos timing.
The vanos tuning must be done on a dyno and that's after a well prepared initial calculated profile is created by the tuner.
Fuelling for partial load even on a target based dme is not as easy as it sounds.
there is the ignition timing and too often tuners use way too much with cams.

Finally, adjustment to torque maps, idle speed, fuel enrichment maps etc all need adjusting slightly and then you are done.
Datalogging is an absolute must during this type of process.

We have a very special s65 engine being delivered to us soon. Cams + modified cylinder heads + custom headers.
This is where things start getting real interesting.

Cams should be fitted by someone who knows what they are doing and has the correct tools.

CAMS FTW!!!!! I can't wait to get mine for the S54!!!!! Better get ready, cause my friend's and I will be making you concoct some serious recipes for power on our tiny inline-6s.

Now in regards to that that special S65 Engine you speak of......please tell me more, especially about those headers....I NEED TO KNOW!

[Sal@Evolve]

Originally Posted by flipm3

Here's a question for anyone to answer in regards to tuning cams.

As we all know, it's one thing to tune for proper safe and consistent power on the dyno. With remote tuning, how can one address the tuning for part-throttle and daily drivability?

With many of the top tuners being all over the world, it's obviously not always feasible to have them physically in the car for tuning. Cams add quite a different dimension in regards to how the engine works, so I assume that drivability has to be greatly considered with tuning.

How can this be addressed to assure stock like drivability?
Now in regards to that that special S65 Engine you speak of......please tell me more, especially about those headers....I NEED TO KNOW!

For one, the development would have been already done by tuners like us before you try and 'experiment' on a customers car.
So you already have a very very good idea of the optimal cam timing, fuelling and ignition for partial load.
For those that have any problems some basic logging under partial load will tell us what we need to do and it's always almost a very small fuelling adjustment that's required. Many of the people going down these routes are also very sensitive about how their cars drive and often giver amazingly good feedback on what exactly THEY want (rather than maybe the way we like a car to feel). Based on that we always go the extra mile and make changes to meet those requirements.
Full throttle is very easy, again starts with a good base file which is developed and depending on the fuel and requirements of the customer changes can be made with the dyno as the data logging tool.

We have been doing this for a long time now. The amount of M Power cars we have retuned remotely is unreal now and they produce more safe and consistent power than many tuners which could be at the dyno.
(Sorry for the boost of our own company there... went a bit over the top!)

These days when we are remotely mapping dyno shops allow us to watch the dyno runs via logging into the dyno PC or webcam. We get masses of data logging done by the operators especially those with data links. It is like having the car on your own dyno and being there. Operators are so good sometimes they will listen out for knock for you too and incomplete combustion from the tail pipes.

Hope that answers your question. If you want a more detailed description of exactly the strategy we take please PM me.

[flipm3]

Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve

For one, the development would have been already done by tuners like us before you try and 'experiment' on a customers car.
So you already have a very very good idea of the optimal cam timing, fuelling and ignition for partial load.
For those that have any problems some basic logging under partial load will tell us what we need to do and it's always almost a very small fuelling adjustment that's required. Many of the people going down these routes are also very sensitive about how their cars drive and often giver amazingly good feedback on what exactly THEY want (rather than maybe the way we like a car to feel). Based on that we always go the extra mile and make changes to meet those requirements.
Full throttle is very easy, again starts with a good base file which is developed and depending on the fuel and requirements of the customer changes can be made with the dyno as the data logging tool.

We have been doing this for a long time now. The amount of M Power cars we have retuned remotely is unreal now and they produce more safe and consistent power than many tuners which could be at the dyno.
(Sorry for the boost of our own company there... went a bit over the top!)

These days when we are remotely mapping dyno shops allow us to watch the dyno runs via logging into the dyno PC or webcam. We get masses of data logging done by the operators especially those with data links. It is like having the car on your own dyno and being there. Operators are so good sometimes they will listen out for knock for you too and incomplete combustion from the tail pipes.

Hope that answers your question. If you want a more detailed description of exactly the strategy we take please PM me.

Thanks for the detailed reply!

When you mention partial load, is this where the benefits of having a load bearing dyno start to shine? Or can similar results be achieved even on a DynoJet?

I'm so glad my friend decided to get the DynoJet DataLink Module for his dyno.

When I start modding the E90 M3, maybe I should take a similar approach to power mods. Buy all the expensive stuff before investing thousands of dollars on an aftermarket muffler, hahahaha.

[Sal@Evolve]

Hang on... I just realised it's you... haha... late here!

Basically exactly the same as how I have tuned your car recently!

That's the strategy.

Partial load mapping on a dyno can only be done with one that can hold load (there are various methods). Some dyno jets can do this.

However, for us to go that far we would have never developed the map properly in the first place. We would maybe use it just to get some lambda integrator values or anything related to part throttle fuelling at a certain load point.

[flipm3]

Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve

Hang on... I just realised it's you... haha... late here!

Basically exactly the same as how I have tuned your car recently!

That's the strategy.

Partial load mapping on a dyno can only be done with one that can hold load (there are various methods). Some dyno jets can do this.

However, for us to go that far we would have never developed the map properly in the first place. We would maybe use it just to get some lambda integrator values or anything related to part throttle fuelling at a certain load point.

HAHAHAHAHA....its all good.

I appreciate the detailed response and it's good for everyone else to see how you fine tune things on the dyno remotely. Thanks to a great integration of technology, it's amazing what can be done remotely.

The partial load you bring up, always kind of perplexed me. I always read about how many tuners prefer to have Mustang Dynos and DynaPacks for their ability to apply constant load. I personally just never really researched or learned much about it.

At any rate, it's nice to know that experienced tuners, like the many on this forum, can tune these cars remotely and rather efficiently!

Keep us posted on some upcoming projects, especially that special S65B40!

[Sal@Evolve]

I hope you liked the PM..

[flipm3]

Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve

I hope you liked the PM..

Great to get a glimpse of what goes on behind-the-scenes...hahahaha....

[leigh]

Originally Posted by img

I think we Dyno'd the car when he got it new,dont remember but ill confirm soon.
Aj will be tuning it since i dont trust anyone else.Not saying any others are bad but I have been dealing with Roman and Aj for a while and Aj is an excellent tuner and great person to deal with.
Will start a new thread with the results soon

Can they get me a set Of cams to go with my supercharger kit?

[leigh]

Originally Posted by img

Thank You Sir,It should be interesting
May be i will do cams soon too to get a little more power

Now after you saying that and your car has a sc kit on it I really want to do this!

[Mike Benvo]

Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve

I hope you liked the PM..

Same PM you sent me about the British Chickens?

[pbonsalb]

I feel like I am in high school with the kids who think they are special talking about their private exchanges in front of everyone else so everyone else will know that private exchanges are taking place and that everyone else is excluded.

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by Mike Benvo

I think this whole tuner war idea is stupid personally. As I've said a million times before, chasing numbers is a waste of time. Comparing dynos is a waste of time. Looking at DELTAS on the SAME car is the only measure of value.

You can make a dyno queen that will make more power by desensitizing knock sensors and a few other tricks. Will the power stay there? No.

Good stuff Mike.

[MRSSIIM3]

Originally Posted by Mike Benvo

Really looking forward to this. Based off my experience with the E60 M5, there is undoubtedly room on the table for an S65 with cams + proper tuning.

I'm really considering them for my car too.. but for now, I have about 48K on the clock and full warranty + maintenance until April of 2014. I can't justify pulling the motor apart until I'm in the warranty free zone.

I had custom FI cams made by Schrick for my supercharged 330 and it made a gigantic difference. My Turbo 7 series also has a custom camshaft for the GT35 BB turbo I'm running on it at 14 PSI. I can see cams in the future for the M3 too. I remember back in the day seeing great videos of E46 M3's with cams revving to 9,000 RPM.

I think we need to start a petition for 93+ octane gas here in CA. It's either have nice weather and 91, or not the best weather and 93. I guess you can't win every battle!

but 93 in the east coast is 10% ethanol whereas 91 in cali is 0% ethanol. So at the end of the day, they are pretty much equal

i could be / probably am completely wrong about this. thats just what i always thought lol

[biggynuts01]

How much power do you estimate you can gain from cams and a tune? How much does it typically cost to have cams installed?

[img]

Originally Posted by leigh

Can they get me a set Of cams to go with my supercharger kit?

The cams for my car or an FI car will be custom.I'm almost ready to pull the trigger

[flipm3]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

I feel like I am in high school with the kids who think they are special talking about their private exchanges in front of everyone else so everyone else will know that private exchanges are taking place and that everyone else is excluded.

No worries buddy! You aren't missing out any technical talk, we were just exchanging jokes.

Sal shared his technical info in post 26 up above.

Originally Posted by biggynuts01

How much power do you estimate you can gain from cams and a tune? How much does it typically cost to have cams installed?

I think the very couple examples I've seen here and on other forums, I recall someone saying roughly 25-30whp from both cams/tune.

In regards to cost to install...eeep, probably a lot. It took my friends nearly 10 hours to install two cams on a S54B32, so I imagine it to be nearly double that for the S65B40.

Originally Posted by img

The cams for my car or an FI car will be custom.I'm almost ready to pull the trigger

I CAN'T WAIT!!!!!

[biggynuts01]

Originally Posted by flipm3

No worries buddy! You aren't missing out any technical talk, we were just exchanging jokes.

Sal shared his technical info in post 26 up above.




I think the very couple examples I've seen here and on other forums, I recall someone saying roughly 25-30whp from both cams/tune.

In regards to cost to install...eeep, probably a lot. It took my friends nearly 10 hours to install two cams on a S54B32, so I imagine it to be nearly double that for the S65B40.


I CAN'T WAIT!!!!!

Damn that's gotta be a lot of $$$ in labor. Easy decision for me...

[pbonsalb]

Originally Posted by MRSSIIM3

but 93 in the east coast is 10% ethanol whereas 91 in cali is 0% ethanol. So at the end of the day, they are pretty much equal

i could be / probably am completely wrong about this. thats just what i always thought lol

I think 93 octane is 93 octane even if it has 10% ethanol. Remember that ethanol is not necessarily bad. If you have 85% ethanol, your octane is much higher than if you have 85% gasoline. The problem is that it takes a lot more ethanol to make the same power so if you run E85, you may need larger injectors. Also the ideal AFR for ethanol is different from gasoline, so the tune should be adjusted. In the 10% range, I don't think it matters much. I'd rather run east coast 93 than west coast 91.

[0-60Motorsports]

I cant wait to get 280/288 cams too Flip

But first SS Stepped V1 with catless pipes and retune on dynapack by EVOLVE

[W///]

Originally Posted by MRSSIIM3

but 93 in the east coast is 10% ethanol whereas 91 in cali is 0% ethanol. So at the end of the day, they are pretty much equal

i could be / probably am completely wrong about this. thats just what i always thought lol

Or you can just find 93 non-ethanol fuel like I do around here