Proposal to determine winner of the tuner wars

[mdoughty]

Like all of you I've been following the 400whp thread with a mixture of interest and amusement. I'm pretty convinced that 400whp is not possible with bolt ons and tunes, but I do feel that threshold is attainable with schrick cams in addition to the standard bolt ons. Are there any of the tuners that frequent this forum capable of proving a tune for the 2 versions of the cams on the stock dme? To my way of thinking this would be an excellent way to differentiate between those who know the s65, and those who are good marketers.

[BMWJ]

Are you planning to fund this adventure?

[mdoughty]

Originally Posted by BMWJ

Are you planning to fund this adventure?

I'd buy and install the cams in a New York minute if I thought there were solid tuning options.

[flipm3]

I would LOVE to see the results of someone installing cams on the S65B40 here in the States. Looking at your signature, have you asked Evolve Automotive if they can do it?

They are tuning a lot of cam'd S54B32s, S62B50s, and S85B50s. Granted all different motors and DMEs, they seem well versed in tuning next level modified NA motors.

Keep us posted on if you find any other tuners who have proper calibrations and solutions.

[pbonsalb]

I think 400 rwhp on a Dynojet in SAE is obtainable from a stock block S65 in an E9xM3 with bolt on mods short of cams, and a tune. Two such results have already been posted. EAS posted a dyno of one car, making 403 rwhp and Mike Benvo posted a dyno of his car, making 402 rwhp.

[mdoughty]

Originally Posted by flipm3

I would LOVE to see the results of someone installing cams on the S65B40 here in the States. Looking at your signature, have you asked Evolve Automotive if they can do it?

They are tuning a lot of cam'd S54B32s, S62B50s, and S85B50s. Granted all different motors and DMEs, they seem well versed in tuning next level modified NA motors.

Keep us posted on if you find any other tuners who have proper calibrations and solutions.

There is an old thread on here somewhere from a guy in Europe who at one time had the 60-130 record (10.4 if I remember correctly). I'd love to get some more feed back from the guy. I'll shoot sal a message when I send my original file for the 240e update.

[mdoughty]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

I think 400 rwhp on a Dynojet in SAE is obtainable from a stock block S65 in an E9xM3 with bolt on mods short of cams, and a tune. Two such results have already been posted. EAS posted a dyno of one car, making 403 rwhp and Mike Benvo posted a dyno of his car, making 402 rwhp.

Benvo's was on a hub dyno if I remember correctly. I'm curious if the other was on race gas.

[pbonsalb]

Originally Posted by mdoughty

Benvo's was on a hub dyno if I remember correctly. I'm curious if the other was on race gas.

No, I posted that Benvo posted a Dynojet SAE dyno at 402 rwhp. I commented on it right after he posted it.

[BMWJ]

Originally Posted by mdoughty

I'd buy and install the cams in a New York minute if I thought there were solid tuning options.

Not talking about the cam. Talking about the expense of creating the tune

[Raucky2000]

There are some UK guys that already have maps for cams....starts with an E and I talked to them this week. Got to make you work for it some

[Mike Benvo]

Any competent tuner should be able to tune the car for different camshafts on the dyno.

Pretty easy - only 4 vanos maps. Inlet cam warm and cold, and exhaust cam warm and cold. You can change the scaling on the axis if you need more definition in certain areas. The camshaft maps are in targeted degrees, so you can designate where you want the cam to move based on RPM and load.

Tuned an RDSport stroker a couple months ago and the owner couldn't believe the difference after driving the car.

I think this whole tuner war idea is stupid personally. As I've said a million times before, chasing numbers is a waste of time. Comparing dynos is a waste of time. Looking at DELTAS on the SAME car is the only measure of value.

You might have a car make 400whp on one dyno and 350whp on another. There are simply too many variables at play. Dyno operators can also skew results in their favor, which is why I ALWAYS use a third party to run the dyno, and have no involvement myself.

You can make a dyno queen that will make more power by desensitizing knock sensors and a few other tricks. Will the power stay there? No.

So who wins the war? The car that puts down 400whp on the dyno and a week later makes less than stock? Or the car that does 385whp consistently and reliably over long periods of time? Too much focus on pure numbers instead of delta gains. Too much focus on numbers instead of smoothness and drivability. Too much focus on WOT when you spend 90% of the time driving in part throttle. Tuning this DME is not rocket science, it's a matter of having the factory information and knowing what to do with it. I bet most tuners don't have some of the factory information that I do.

All I care is that all of my customers are happy, and I can say without a doubt that I haven't had a single complaint. I've retuned cars with various other software time and time again with nothing but positive results.

I still need to post in that 400whp thread when I have time to address a few comments in there. But for now I'm going to enjoy my last night in Las Vegas and get to that when I return to LA.

Stop wasting your time chasing numbers. It makes zero sense. Enjoy your car and your mods instead, whichever tuner you decide to go with.

[uplusd]

[mdoughty]

Originally Posted by Mike Benvo

Any competent tuner should be able to tune the car for different camshafts on the dyno.

Pretty easy - only 4 vanos maps. Inlet cam warm and cold, and exhaust cam warm and cold. You can change the scaling on the axis if you need more definition in certain areas. The camshaft maps are in targeted degrees, so you can designate where you want the cam to move based on RPM and load.

Tuned an RDSport stroker a couple months ago and the owner couldn't believe the difference after driving the car.

I think this whole tuner war idea is stupid personally. As I've said a million times before, chasing numbers is a waste of time. Comparing dynos is a waste of time. Looking at DELTAS on the SAME car is the only measure of value.

You might have a car make 400whp on one dyno and 350whp on another. There are simply too many variables at play. Dyno operators can also skew results in their favor, which is why I ALWAYS use a third party to run the dyno, and have no involvement myself.

You can make a dyno queen that will make more power by desensitizing knock sensors and a few other tricks. Will the power stay there? No.

So who wins the war? The car that puts down 400whp on the dyno and a week later makes less than stock? Or the car that does 385whp consistently and reliably over long periods of time? Too much focus on pure numbers instead of delta gains. Too much focus on numbers instead of smoothness and drivability. Too much focus on WOT when you spend 90% of the time driving in part throttle. Tuning this DME is not rocket science, it's a matter of having the factory information and knowing what to do with it. I bet most tuners don't have some of the factory information that I do.

All I care is that all of my customers are happy, and I can say without a doubt that I haven't had a single complaint. I've retuned cars with various other software time and time again with nothing but positive results.

I still need to post in that 400whp thread when I have time to address a few comments in there. But for now I'm going to enjoy my last night in Las Vegas and get to that when I return to LA.

Stop wasting your time chasing numbers. It makes zero sense. Enjoy your car and your mods instead, whichever tuner you decide to go with.

Enjoy your last night in Vegas! If I was chasing numbers I'd bolt on a supercharger and be done with it. I'm chasing an aesthetic, staying all motor and squeezing what I can while not throwing a rod. I worded that title to illicit some tuner responses on a topic that has been rarely discussed. Does the rd sport motor have cams? I didn't think either stroker had headwork done.

[flipm3]

Originally Posted by mdoughty

There is an old thread on here somewhere from a guy in Europe who at one time had the 60-130 record (10.4 if I remember correctly). I'd love to get some more feed back from the guy. I'll shoot sal a message when I send my original file for the 240e update.

Yeah, there was a forum member here. I have tried PMing him a long time ago to see how his build was, but never heard back from him.

Definitely keep us posted on what Sal@Evolve says. I'd be curious to hear his response.

Originally Posted by Raucky2000

There are some UK guys that already have maps for cams....starts with an E and I talked to them this week. Got to make you work for it some

Haha...curious who you are referring to.

All I know is that Evolve Automotive from the UK will be tuning my Schrick 288/280 Cam'd S54B32, hopefully by Spring time!

Originally Posted by Mike Benvo

Any competent tuner should be able to tune the car for different camshafts on the dyno.

Pretty easy - only 4 vanos maps. Inlet cam warm and cold, and exhaust cam warm and cold. You can change the scaling on the axis if you need more definition in certain areas. The camshaft maps are in targeted degrees, so you can designate where you want the cam to move based on RPM and load.

Tuned an RDSport stroker a couple months ago and the owner couldn't believe the difference after driving the car.

I think this whole tuner war idea is stupid personally. As I've said a million times before, chasing numbers is a waste of time. Comparing dynos is a waste of time. Looking at DELTAS on the SAME car is the only measure of value.

You might have a car make 400whp on one dyno and 350whp on another. There are simply too many variables at play. Dyno operators can also skew results in their favor, which is why I ALWAYS use a third party to run the dyno, and have no involvement myself.

You can make a dyno queen that will make more power by desensitizing knock sensors and a few other tricks. Will the power stay there? No.

So who wins the war? The car that puts down 400whp on the dyno and a week later makes less than stock? Or the car that does 385whp consistently and reliably over long periods of time? Too much focus on pure numbers instead of delta gains. Too much focus on numbers instead of smoothness and drivability. Too much focus on WOT when you spend 90% of the time driving in part throttle. Tuning this DME is not rocket science, it's a matter of having the factory information and knowing what to do with it. I bet most tuners don't have some of the factory information that I do.

All I care is that all of my customers are happy, and I can say without a doubt that I haven't had a single complaint. I've retuned cars with various other software time and time again with nothing but positive results.

I still need to post in that 400whp thread when I have time to address a few comments in there. But for now I'm going to enjoy my last night in Las Vegas and get to that when I return to LA.

Stop wasting your time chasing numbers. It makes zero sense. Enjoy your car and your mods instead, whichever tuner you decide to go with.

I could not agree anymore! Well said Mike.

I totally forgot that you tuned a RD Sport Stroker Motor! Please share details either through PM or another thread! This message forum needs more information on monster NA builds instead of the boosted stuff, haha.

Please install cams on your beautiful E90 M3! It would be nice to see a change of pace around here.

Enjoy your last night in Vegas and stay safe!

[Andrew@ActiveAutowerke]

Originally Posted by Mike Benvo

Any competent tuner should be able to tune the car for different camshafts on the dyno.

Pretty easy - only 4 vanos maps. Inlet cam warm and cold, and exhaust cam warm and cold. You can change the scaling on the axis if you need more definition in certain areas. The camshaft maps are in targeted degrees, so you can designate where you want the cam to move based on RPM and load.

Tuned an RDSport stroker a couple months ago and the owner couldn't believe the difference after driving the car.

I think this whole tuner war idea is stupid personally. As I've said a million times before, chasing numbers is a waste of time. Comparing dynos is a waste of time. Looking at DELTAS on the SAME car is the only measure of value.

You might have a car make 400whp on one dyno and 350whp on another. There are simply too many variables at play. Dyno operators can also skew results in their favor, which is why I ALWAYS use a third party to run the dyno, and have no involvement myself.

You can make a dyno queen that will make more power by desensitizing knock sensors and a few other tricks. Will the power stay there? No.

So who wins the war? The car that puts down 400whp on the dyno and a week later makes less than stock? Or the car that does 385whp consistently and reliably over long periods of time? Too much focus on pure numbers instead of delta gains. Too much focus on numbers instead of smoothness and drivability. Too much focus on WOT when you spend 90% of the time driving in part throttle. Tuning this DME is not rocket science, it's a matter of having the factory information and knowing what to do with it. I bet most tuners don't have some of the factory information that I do.

All I care is that all of my customers are happy, and I can say without a doubt that I haven't had a single complaint. I've retuned cars with various other software time and time again with nothing but positive results.

I still need to post in that 400whp thread when I have time to address a few comments in there. But for now I'm going to enjoy my last night in Las Vegas and get to that when I return to LA.

Stop wasting your time chasing numbers. It makes zero sense. Enjoy your car and your mods instead, whichever tuner you decide to go with.

This post is well..... Perfect!

[Mike Benvo]

Originally Posted by flipm3

All I know is that Evolve Automotive from the UK will be tuning my Schrick 288/280 Cam'd S54B32, hopefully by Spring time!


I could not agree anymore! Well said Mike.

I totally forgot that you tuned a RD Sport Stroker Motor! Please share details either through PM or another thread! This message forum needs more information on monster NA builds instead of the boosted stuff, haha.

Please install cams on your beautiful E90 M3! It would be nice to see a change of pace around here.

Enjoy your last night in Vegas and stay safe!

Really looking forward to this. Based off my experience with the E60 M5, there is undoubtedly room on the table for an S65 with cams + proper tuning.

I'm really considering them for my car too.. but for now, I have about 48K on the clock and full warranty + maintenance until April of 2014. I can't justify pulling the motor apart until I'm in the warranty free zone.

I had custom FI cams made by Schrick for my supercharged 330 and it made a gigantic difference. My Turbo 7 series also has a custom camshaft for the GT35 BB turbo I'm running on it at 14 PSI. I can see cams in the future for the M3 too. I remember back in the day seeing great videos of E46 M3's with cams revving to 9,000 RPM.

I think we need to start a petition for 93+ octane gas here in CA. It's either have nice weather and 91, or not the best weather and 93. I guess you can't win every battle!

[///M Rakete]

Originally Posted by Mike Benvo

I think we need to start a petition for 93+ octane gas here in CA.

[img]

A buddy of mine just got cams installed on his M3.Getting it tuned in the next couple of weeks and we gonna hit the Dyno. I will post results !

[flipm3]

Originally Posted by img

A buddy of mine just got cams installed on his M3.Getting it tuned in the next couple of weeks and we gonna hit the Dyno. I will post results !

Nice!!!!!!!!

Do you already have some baseline dyno data to compare to the cams and retune?

May I ask who will be doing the tuning?

[img]

Originally Posted by flipm3

Nice!!!!!!!!

Do you already have some baseline dyno data to compare to the cams and retune?

May I ask who will be doing the tuning?

I think we Dyno'd the car when he got it new,dont remember but ill confirm soon.
Aj will be tuning it since i dont trust anyone else.Not saying any others are bad but I have been dealing with Roman and Aj for a while and Aj is an excellent tuner and great person to deal with.
Will start a new thread with the results soon

[flipm3]

Originally Posted by img

I think we Dyno'd the car when he got it new,dont remember but ill confirm soon.
Aj will be tuning it since i dont trust anyone else.Not saying any others are bad but I have been dealing with Roman and Aj for a while and Aj is an excellent tuner and great person to deal with.
Will start a new thread with the results soon

Sounds great to me!

I have been waiting for who knows how long for someone to post some dynos with cams.

Best of luck to you all. I'm sure it will turn out great. Knowing how you collect all your data and write threads, I'm sure it will be worth the wait.

[img]

Originally Posted by flipm3

Sounds great to me!

I have been waiting for who knows how long for someone to post some dynos with cams.

Best of luck to you all. I'm sure it will turn out great. Knowing how you collect all your data and write threads, I'm sure it will be worth the wait.

Thank You Sir,It should be interesting
May be i will do cams soon too to get a little more power