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      01-11-2013, 07:26 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by tom @ eas View Post
Morning Sal, long time no speak.

Looking forward to seeing some dynos of your own!
Long time indeed.

I have hundreds of dyno tests of my own. Reminds me, I need to send you the test of your own intake system.

I sent you an email about this whole STD subject some time back.

I have been on this forum way before Evolve ever offered any products and from the very beginning spoke about dyno testing and manipulation.

When I see so many people being confused by different correction methods and not actually knowing the effects of correction factors I feel it's important that the public is properly educated in these matters.

Other forums have taken the information on and now fully understand. They are now vigilant of correction factors and when SAE over or under corrects. They understand that STD correction boosts figures and it's simply not realistic.

Unless of course we all start just looking at STD correction then it's fine.

All this is about is looking at everything fairly.

It's not an attack on you in any way. You may want to ignore this and carry on what I consider to be marketing. That's your choice and no one can force you to show valuable data.

Valuable data

- 1 x SAE graph showing max values
- 1 x SAE graph showing conditions
- 1 x uncorrected graph
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      01-11-2013, 07:34 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by pbonsalb View Post
Uncorrected is important for tuning since it is the power you are actually making under the actual weather conditions. But people want comparable results that are standardized to certain conditions and SAE does that. If one guy is making 375 rwhp at the North Pole and another guy is making 325 rwhp at the Equator, it does not mean much to me if I am in neither of those two place. I want to see standardized results. This is why car makers report their engine horsepower and torque in a standardized format (SAE for the USA where I live).

While I like standardized results for comparison purposes, I agree they do not tell everything. If a car is knocking and retarding timing or breathing poorly due to extreme heat or bad gas or has old spark plugs or a clogged air filter or clogged cats or there is no dyno fan, the reasons for the poor performance won't be reflected in any standardized dyno format. I think this is why there is a significant variation among even SAE Dynojets of the same make and model car.
Well said from a theoretical point of view.

You already know what SAE is used for so I won't bore you with that info.

The problem which we have seen as tuners on our own dyno, Supersprint's dyno and dyno's we regularly use all over the world is that SAE correction is flawed within a range of temperature and atmospheric pressure.

We noticed this long ago when we were tuning the same exact cars over again after dealer updates.
I have the graphs and weather conditions to show this.
All of the testing we have ever done has data logged vanos, ignition and many other variables.
So we know the DME is not suddenly deciding to play a role.

In all cases the engines would produce the EXACT power curve, just higher or lower on the scale.

What we found was the SAE correction was over an under correcting for small changes in barometric pressure and these particular engines just don't react like that.

After speaking to dyno manufacturers they also confirmed this as many of them produce engine dyno's which are operated in weather controlled test rooms. They tuners alter pressure, humidity and temperature and high efficiency engines just do not respond in the way SAE suggests.

I do not want to fill this thread with this information but if anyone is genuinely interested in seeing the results we have carried out over the years, please contact us or we can create a separate thread on the subject.
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      01-11-2013, 07:41 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by tom @ eas View Post
Looking forward to it. There aren't many BPM dynos posted to validate results, I'm others are interested as well when making their decision.

Please post dynojet numbers when possible, or send some BPM tuned M3s our way and we'll datalog for you and post results (with their permission).
This to me looks like you are calling Mike out.

I hope that's not the case.

I know he has dyno results from the cars he has tuned. He chooses not to post up the graphs at this point in his career. We followed the same routine. Until we can see multiple cars producing the same delta we do not post up the results.
Sometimes there is not enough time to data log and verify some essential variables we as tuners like to see.

I know the above as a fact as Mike and I talk quite often about things outside of tuning also and in our talks he mentions to me what he did and did not achieve.

I think you very well remember how many data logs I asked for when we were tuning on your own dyno.
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      01-11-2013, 07:50 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by tom @ eas View Post
Randy Mueller (Epic Motorsports) is a very well-respected name in the BMW Motorsport community. We have had excellent results in the ESS E-Flash as well.

Here's an example we dynoed with a member using Evolve software:

Would you mind keeping everything consistent and showing the STD graph of this also please.
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      01-11-2013, 10:00 AM   #71
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Or deleting all the STD graphs and showing just the SAE graphs (my preference). EAS does show all the SAE graphs and people seem to agree those are the ones that should be shown.
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      01-11-2013, 11:53 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by pbonsalb View Post
Or deleting all the STD graphs and showing just the SAE graphs (my preference). EAS does show all the SAE graphs and people seem to agree those are the ones that should be shown.
Would be ideal if the conditions are shown also.
Uncorrected is very important.

It just takes one person on this forum to do some tests on various different weather condition days to understand why.
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      01-11-2013, 12:12 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve View Post
Would be ideal if the conditions are shown also.
Uncorrected is very important.

It just takes one person on this forum to do some tests on various different weather condition days to understand why.
Dyno manipulation thread Been waiting for this to come up for awhile.

I posted a graph last month of me messing around on the dyno holding a fan up to the filter during a run and making another 15 whp more. This is just one example but its very possible some companies are trying such things to get ahead of the competition. I feel it is very important that customers ask questions and always be weary of dyno numbers that sound to good to be true. It is the internet after all...
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      01-11-2013, 12:46 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew@ActiveAutowerke View Post
Dyno manipulation thread Been waiting for this to come up for awhile.

I posted a graph last month of me messing around on the dyno holding a fan up to the filter during a run and making another 15 whp more. This is just one example but its very possible some companies are trying such things to get ahead of the competition. I feel it is very important that customers ask questions and always be weary of dyno numbers that sound to good to be true. It is the internet after all...
I posted a detailed thread somewhere some time ago.

It was more for dyno dynamics but gave a good idea.

manipulation of the type you are talking about - there is no way to catch that out.

Anyway, I have made my very simple point about STD SAE and uncorrected.

It's not to offend anyone and no one should be offended by it.
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      01-11-2013, 01:17 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve View Post
This to me looks like you are calling Mike out.

I hope that's not the case.

I know he has dyno results from the cars he has tuned. He chooses not to post up the graphs at this point in his career. We followed the same routine. Until we can see multiple cars producing the same delta we do not post up the results.
Sometimes there is not enough time to data log and verify some essential variables we as tuners like to see.

I know the above as a fact as Mike and I talk quite often about things outside of tuning also and in our talks he mentions to me what he did and did not achieve.

I think you very well remember how many data logs I asked for when we were tuning on your own dyno.
Mike does show a graph from a dynapack. A lot. It's even linked in this thread (and many others), so its implied that it's easily reachable and used as a primary means of marketing, thus setting expectations that others can easily reach that number also. I have dynoruns from when his car was dynoed here as well.

I'm not specifically calling anyone out. I'm just stating that everyone should follow the same set of criteria others are expected to follow. When you do have time, please feel to post some dynos of your own. We'll call it "leading by example".

Horsepower claims are made every day on performance parts:

- Exhausts
- Intakes
- Filters
- Pulleys
- Superchargers

Tunes should not be the exception when asking for examples and/or proof of one's work. Heck, we've even had a handful of instances on N/A cars in which tunes didn't help at all.

I'm very blunt, sometimes people take it the wrong way and egos get bruised in the process. Maybe that's my fault, but its just like the old saying goes, "put up or shut up". The dynos we posted had almost every tune available to us in the states, with the exception of AA. We don't see many of those here.

If one is going to claim they're the best, everyone wants to see definitive proof of it. Until then, it's magic. Magic consisting of illusions, combined with smoke and mirrors.

Now back to Mike. According to the reviews on the forums, there are a lot of Mike's tunes out there. And a lot of happy users. One of his last posts claimed over 30 of them just in the last session, why wouldn't results be shared? When we do see it, let's see the same info you are requesting from us, including timing and IATs as would only benefit everyone here.

It would definitely add credibility the tuners, as well as back up the claims.

But we don't tune, only validate. And the dyno doesn't discriminate. That's the difference as there's not an agenda to push. We need examples from tuners, tuning facilities and 3rd parties. We simply can't take only the tuner's word for it anymore.

Producing before/after results on real world vehicles (not his own) should be relatively simple, but doesn't exist. Are we simply supposed to simply take the tuner's word for it? Wouldn't a dyno be an everyday and essential tool used in tuning with plenty of data at hand?

When we do see it, let's get it on a dynojet. It's simply much more common in the US.

Our dyno is always open if needed.

Thanks for keeping it civil.
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      01-11-2013, 01:45 PM   #76
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Looking forward to responding to your post in about 10 hours when I return to the office.

I think you're being a bit misleading but Sal and I are not surprised.

It's obvious that you have an agenda, and I've got absolutely nothing to prove to you. When you have amazing products a few haters always surface.
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      01-11-2013, 01:47 PM   #77
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Thanks for your reply.

I don't know if it's just the way to comes across but you seem to have an issue with Mike.

I have lead by example for a long long time.

Dyno operators were always just posting high STD numbers without anything else. They were using blatantly the highest vs the lowest graphs of any particular setup for years.

Until a few of us came along and set the record straight. I was one of those people and there are a few others who did even more who I will not name.

You are on many other forums - you have seen dyno graphs with our tuning etc on independent machines. Multiple runs I should point out of std or base line vs tuned.

E92 M3 - We cannot see the point of putting our own dyno graphs up especially from a Dyno Dynamics which reads so much lower than any dynojet. Worst thing is we cannot release any DRF style files because DD never developed such brilliant software!

So, we stick to letting our customers go where ever they want and have their cars tested.

However, since you have called us out and made a comment about leading by example we will start posting the many many tests we have done here.

Talking about agenda's, is it common knowledge you do sell and validate your own in house products. I have tested the same products but never released any information on those. I will send it to you though.

Last edited by Sal@Evolve; 01-11-2013 at 02:03 PM.
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      01-11-2013, 02:15 PM   #78
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      01-11-2013, 02:26 PM   #79
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I'm still waiting for one of these intakes to make anything but negative hp on our dyno . I see they make 10 or even 15 whp on others though.
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      01-11-2013, 02:31 PM   #80
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I'm still waiting for one of these intakes to make anything but negative hp on our dyno . I see they make 10 or even 15 whp on others though.
mmm... not sure you should be saying stuff like that.
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      01-11-2013, 02:35 PM   #81
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leading by example vs. misleading by example.
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      01-11-2013, 02:51 PM   #82
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Some good info/debate in here, hope it stays civil. Happy to offer my car as a guinea pig for various tunes back to back...

Sal, sent you a PM to see if you would share some of the specifics you like to log using the BT tool. I'd like to log those for a baseline run then load the OEM software update to 240E then a tune. Mike, owe you a call on this as well (will try later today.)
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      01-11-2013, 03:05 PM   #83
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      01-11-2013, 03:15 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve View Post
mmm... not sure you should be saying stuff like that.
Why we have had some angry customers in the past. $900 for an intake that made -10 whp under stock with a filter.
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      01-11-2013, 03:29 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve View Post
Thanks for your reply.

I don't know if it's just the way to comes across but you seem to have an issue with Mike.

I have lead by example for a long long time.

Dyno operators were always just posting high STD numbers without anything else. They were using blatantly the highest vs the lowest graphs of any particular setup for years.

Until a few of us came along and set the record straight. I was one of those people and there are a few others who did even more who I will not name.

You are on many other forums - you have seen dyno graphs with our tuning etc on independent machines. Multiple runs I should point out of std or base line vs tuned.

E92 M3 - We cannot see the point of putting our own dyno graphs up especially from a Dyno Dynamics which reads so much lower than any dynojet. Worst thing is we cannot release any DRF style files because DD never developed such brilliant software!

So, we stick to letting our customers go where ever they want and have their cars tested.

However, since you have called us out and made a comment about leading by example we will start posting the many many tests we have done here.

Talking about agenda's, is it common knowledge you do sell and validate your own in house products. I have tested the same products but never released any information on those. I will send it to you though.
No one is a victim here.

I don't have an issue with anyone. You were not called out. Mike was not called out.

The same criteria for power expectation and verifying claims should be expected from everyone, as everyone can benefit from this information, share and improve. There will always be skeptics. Proven power (among other things) can simply sells more tunes, right? It would also prove the safety factor as well.

Let's locate those customers that have been on dynojets so we can benefit this information. If low numbers are your primary concern, we can simply measure deltas on the Dyno Dynamics instead - which is what should be compared, instead of peak numbers.

We build, we test, we race, we let others race with, we get feedback, and then we post results. If they don't work - we don't sell them. We've dropped a number of companies in the past for not achieving this alone.

Egos do get bruised in the crossfire, sometimes dissolving relationships. Just have to maintain an open mind and move ahead, and learn from those mistakes.

In the meantime, responding to your PM shortly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by signes View Post
Some good info/debate in here, hope it stays civil. Happy to offer my car as a guinea pig for various tunes back to back...

Sal, sent you a PM to see if you would share some of the specifics you like to log using the BT tool. I'd like to log those for a baseline run then load the OEM software update to 240E then a tune. Mike, owe you a call on this as well (will try later today.)
Looking forward to seeing your results.
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      01-11-2013, 03:47 PM   #86
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Victims?

Not sure where that's coming from.

Imran will post the graphs next week. Takes a long time to go through a dyno dynamics database. We shall see how many people notice the delta rather than the absolute power.

Dynjojet - we will let the customers do that. Much better coming from them directly + their feedback on the upgrade. If you want to locate them then go ahead.
We had plenty of very positive results on your dyno so you can post those too. You bought quite a few cables and carried on purchasing based on the results. It was a shame the margins were too small for you to continue with us using the cable.




Quote:
Originally Posted by tom @ eas View Post
No one is a victim here.

I don't have an issue with anyone. You were not called out. Mike was not called out.

The same criteria for power expectation and verifying claims should be expected from everyone, as everyone can benefit from this information, share and improve. There will always be skeptics. Proven power (among other things) can simply sells more tunes, right? It would also prove the safety factor as well.

Let's locate those customers that have been on dynojets so we can benefit this information. If low numbers are your primary concern, we can simply measure deltas on the Dyno Dynamics instead - which is what should be compared, instead of peak numbers.

We build, we test, we race, we let others race with, we get feedback, and then we post results. If they don't work - we don't sell them. We've dropped a number of companies in the past for not achieving this alone.

Egos do get bruised in the crossfire, sometimes dissolving relationships. Just have to maintain an open mind and move ahead, and learn from those mistakes.

In the meantime, responding to your PM shortly.



Looking forward to seeing your results.
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      01-11-2013, 03:49 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve View Post
Victims?

Not sure where that's coming from.

Imran will post the graphs next week. Takes a long time to go through a dyno dynamics database. We shall see how many people notice the delta rather than the absolute power.

Dynjojet - we will let the customers do that. Much better coming from them directly + their feedback on the upgrade. If you want to locate them then go ahead.
We had plenty of very positive results on your dyno so you can post those too. You bought quite a few cables and carried on purchasing based on the results. It was a shame the margins were too small for you to continue with us using the cable.
No problem, I'll be in touch soon.

In the meantime, this thread has served it's purpose.
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      01-11-2013, 04:07 PM   #88
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I'm still waiting for one of these intakes to make anything but negative hp on our dyno . I see they make 10 or even 15 whp on others though.
Im still waiting for your superchargers to make decent power on any dyno other than yours. The only dyno numbers that are anywhere close to average for your kits have been on your dyno posted by you. Maybe before you attack other vendors products you should get your own products in order.

As far as vendors telling other vendors how to post their own dyno results please stop. Like Tom said if you don't like it post your own but don't act like an angry teen on the internet and attack someone because you do not agree with the way they post their own data. Tom has posted very good results from products he does not even sell. What I see from his dyno's is that all the tunes are very close in what they add to these cars. Other mods like exhaust, intakes etc... make more of a difference from one car to the next.

Many people get dyno numbers from independent shops in STD. They often do not have the choice or they simply might not have known any better. Im sure these people appriciate seeing comparison dyno's posted in both SAE and STD for reference, I know I do. I think the real debate here is about ego. Some people seem to be going out of their way to prove they are correct, know more than others and everyone who does not do it their way is wrong.

My opinion is these cars do not make 400+ whp "stock motor" with a tune and bolt on mods but some dyno's can get them there. I believe with proper drivetrain loss calculated they can make about 370-380 whp at best. I made around 340 whp stock on a dynojet which I believe is what these cars make and there is no way in hell bolt on mods and a tune are going to add 60+ hp to this motor.
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