ZCP Suspension for Track Use - Question

[MTROIS]

Originally Posted by z335is

Does anyone know what the general track time discrepancy is for the ZCP vs. non-ZCP cars?

At least 2-3 secs.... AT LEAST!

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by z335is

Does anyone know what the general track time discrepancy is for the ZCP vs. non-ZCP cars?

It will vary tremendously from track to track. I think tracks with slow, tight turns leading onto long straights will have a greater time difference than a faster track with more sweeping corners.

At MSR Houston, there's a 3 turn complex (3-5) which comes off a long straight and then leads onto a long straight...both directions. Then one direction has a quick 2 turn switchback (9-8) leading onto a key long straight. I would guess that a ZCP car is good for an easy second. The problem I have in my E90 is just getting the power down on exit. I have to wait to get on the throttle which kills exit speed. Then the speed deficit just multiplies as you get down the straight. So 2-3 mph on exit is about 10-15mph at the start of the next braking zone.

For a faster track with lots of sweeping corners like Texas World Speedway where there's only 1 potential 2nd gear turn not in a critical area of the track then I don't think ZCP makes as much of a difference.

[Sleeper519]

Originally Posted by Porschefile

I didn't think lowering it half an inch and slightly stiffer damping would do much. I haven't driven a ZCP, but just thinking through it I don't see how it could make a significant difference.

I've seen reviews from people that have tracked both and found the difference to be negligible. Not saying you're wrong (it is an opinion after all), just saying that thinking ZCP makes much difference on track is an unusual opinion to hold.

OP: Definitely will be 'good enough.' I like coilovers much better than stock, but even non-ZCP stock is pretty damn good for a stock car. If you were happy with an older M with stock dampers you'll love the E9X.

My tire wear has been terrible stock and with coilovers and 2.5 camber.

Agree. I don't see how there could be such a big difference. These aren't coilovers by any stretch. Lots of subjective interpretation in this thread. also apples to oranges, comparing stock vs modified square setups vs Dinans, EDC vs non-EDC vs ZCP, butt dynos vs track tire wear...

OP is talking about running his car stock for now.

Originally Posted by Class-of-2013

I think I read somewhere the ZCP springs have different spring rates (stiffer) and aren't simply just lower by .5 inches, contributing to improved cornering behavior. I do know from my old non-ZCP M and this car ZCP car, the Sport EDC is substantially stiffer off the cuff. Feels extremely neutral coming off an off-ramp at relatively high speed (track of course is different).

Thanks for the thoughts though, looking forward to seeing the ZCP suspension in action this March.

Springs are shorter by 1 cm (0.4") and spring rate is same as non-ZCP = not stiffer.

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

I have the non-EDC with dinan stage 2, GC plates and square 275s. The BIGGEST shortcoming are the rear dampers. I can tell its on the bump stops on just about every corner exit. I'm feathering the throttled til the car is about straight and then I can give it gas. EDC cars don't seem to have this issue. I drove a stock ZCP car and it was better at putting the power down.

I think the ZCP has stiffer rear springs and stiffer damper settings which helps to mask the problem.

Wrong

Originally Posted by kaiv

The stock suspension is plenty good on the track. I track mine on stock non-EDC dampers with just springs, camber plates and a good alignment. It's excellent.

Totally agree.

Originally Posted by MTROIS

At least 2-3 secs.... AT LEAST!

Where does this come from??

[LiM3y]

Originally Posted by Sleeper519

Where does this come from??

Please send answers on a postcard to:

Dr. S P King-Outmiass
2 Buttocks Creek
Secaucus, NJ 07094

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by Sleeper519

Lots of subjective interpretation in this thread. also apples to oranges, comparing stock vs modified square setups vs Dinans, EDC vs non-EDC vs ZCP, butt dynos vs track tire wear...

Damn...I'm a total retard. I have a non-EDC...comparing it to the ZCP which is not the discussion here. Disregard my input. Yeah, there's a significant difference between non-EDC and EDC cars from driving both on the track but that's not the topic now is it

I'd delete it but you already quoted me!

[Class-of-2013]

Originally Posted by Sleeper519

Springs are shorter by 1 cm (0.4") and spring rate is same as non-ZCP = not stiffer.

Thanks! I was corrected that the EDC Sport Setting in ZCP cars is now Dynamic / Adjusts to road conditions variably vs. Non-ZCP cars. What's weird though is if the springs aren't stiffer, why is the car rougher / "stiffer" in Normal / Comfort mode than in the Non-ZCP cars? Do you think that's damper thing or simply the lowering of .04"?

[Gearhead999s]

The one thing that I know for sure is that my 11 ZCP is flatter,puts the power down better in 2nd gear corners,is more neutral and easier on the tires with more even wear than my 08 which was with the base suspension.My 11 does not have a sunroof which the 08 had and whether this contributes to the improvement,I cannot really say.My 2 cents worth

[Tony B]

Originally Posted by Class-of-2013

Thanks! I was corrected that the EDC Sport Setting in ZCP cars is now Dynamic / Adjusts to road conditions variably vs. Non-ZCP cars. What's weird though is if the springs aren't stiffer, why is the car rougher / "stiffer" in Normal / Comfort mode than in the Non-ZCP cars? Do you think that's damper thing or simply the lowering of .04"?

The same size tyres are used ZCP v non-ZCP.

As the wheels are wider front and rear this means the tyre sidewall is a different shape (the tyres are stretched out more) which makes them feel stiffer - you will notice a slight deterioration in low speed ride quality because of this.

The change in sidewall profile also changes the feel of the steering and the responsiveness to steering inputs.

[kaiv]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

What kind of tires? I've used Conti scrubs, RS3s and Z1* and all just didn't work very well. I'm on NT01s now and I think it will be awesome. The only weekend I used them it was wet and got 1 dry session. I could tell that the rear end had a lot more grip.

I run RS-3s and I really don't have any complaints. I can't comment on the other tires as I've never tried them. I do hope to try the NT01s this year

[Class-of-2013]

Originally Posted by Tony B

The same size tyres are used ZCP v non-ZCP.

As the wheels are wider front and rear this means the tyre sidewall is a different shape (the tyres are stretched out more) which makes them feel stiffer - you will notice a slight deterioration in low speed ride quality because of this.

The change in sidewall profile also changes the feel of the steering and the responsiveness to steering inputs.

I should mention I put my 18s (219Ms) on and that's what I'm referring to. Not with ZCP wheels on actually. What you say in that regard makes sense.

[Gearhead999s]

We were both on stock PS2's in slightly damp weather.The video is from my ZCP equipped E92 M3.

[Mmmm3333]

Originally Posted by Gearhead999s

We were both on stock PS2's in slightly damp weather.The video is from my ZCP equipped E92 M3.

I'm sure that slightly lower ride height and wider rims help a bit but it looks like you are just a better driver. You hit the apexes much more aggressively and use more of the road than the other drivers. Your lines appear to be more consistent and you are smoother.....which probably means more than the small advantage of ZCP.

I would guess that if you and the other m3 driver switched cars, you would still be faster.

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by kaiv

I run RS-3s and I really don't have any complaints. I can't comment on the other tires as I've never tried them. I do hope to try the NT01s this year

They were OK but my car tore through this set pretty fast. And it didn't feel like my M3 was very stable over heavy braking zones, elevation changes and fast switchbacks. I know part of that is the non-EDC suspension and the weight of the car but my 330 (with RS3s) never felt nearly this fidgety. I recently drove the M3 with NT01s, got one dry session in...and it felt planted in turns where before I was either having to go much slower or just slide the car through.

I know I probably should have gotten the car with EDC or just put some coilovers on by now but I'd rather be grumpy and complain.

[paradocs98]

Originally Posted by MTROIS

At least 2-3 secs.... AT LEAST!

Originally Posted by Sleeper519

Where does this come from??

Originally Posted by LiM3y

Please send answers on a postcard to:

Dr. S P King-Outmiass
2 Buttocks Creek
Secaucus, NJ 07094

Oh--he's excellent. You can see signs of his work all over the internet.

By the way, I believe MTROIS was trying to be funny/sarcastic/ironic. Note the eye-rolling smilie at the end of his post.

[MTROIS]

Originally Posted by paradocs98

Oh--he's excellent. You can see signs of his work all over the internet.

By the way, I believe MTROIS was trying to be funny/sarcastic/ironic. Note the eye-rolling smilie at the end of his post.

Thanks Paradocs! At least you got my (poor) humor!

Guys...just relax. Everybody is so serious these days... But no reason to get worked up over EDC vs. ZCP... Especially since it is still the driver who is the biggest variable in your equation!

[SROC5]

I just tracked a ZCP car with 18s + PS2s and it did surprisingly better than I thought it would. It was really planted, relatively neutral, and predictable. It went over berm without issue and when it did sway a bit, it was in perfect concert with everything else going on in the suspension - not erratic or nervous at all.

All in all, highly reco trying it and deciding whether you want to switch out the springs to something else.