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      01-04-2013, 01:34 AM   #1
Munit
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If bmw can offer a v12 than why not dedicated M engine?

So the biggest arguement I hear anyway is the fact that both emissions and the cost of design to design an engine like the s85/s65 since there is no scalability due to the engines being only in one model car. This makes perfect sense of course until I read some info about the 760LI with a 6 litre V12 with twin turbos. Forgot the exact number but it is an extremely low selling vehicle-lowest by far out of all of them, yet bmw takes the time and energy to create a one-off v12 for one car? It has horrible mileage, gas guzler and it actually only has 530hp which is super disappointing for a 6 litre twin turbo v12.

The only thing I can think of is that they build engines for bentley (or rolls? )one of the two with that same engine. However I read about taht and the engine in the bentley is stroked out by .6 litres so again its ecomony of scale is limited as that engine takes a bunch of specific tuning and research.

Basically why would bmw build a technolgically advanced v12 for a single model which is the lowest selling model of the fleet?

I think bmw should have left its M division to have reign on the M3 and produce a one-off engine with all performance based, just like the V12. It has the worst mileage out of the fleet as well. The buyers however are much more in number so they could atleast make some profit but even more importantly, think how much the m3 could stand out in terms of reviews, car tests etc which would build up the bmw brand as a whole.

I agree the direction of the m5, 6, x etc. They are more of a cruiser and never meant to be a true performance race car like the m3.
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      01-04-2013, 01:41 AM   #2
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BMW owns Rolls Royce, so I think they use the 760i engine there.

As for why, I suppose they were developing a high power engine for Rolls and just decide to shove it in the 760 for the sake of it. I suppose it's a lot easier to put it in a similar size car than a small car like M3.

Also the reason why they didn't push more power out of a V12 is because it is not a performance engine. They made it for luxury cruiser for smooth power delivery.

*Oh and there was a high performance supercar with a BMW 6.0 L V12 engine. It's call the McLaren F1.
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      01-04-2013, 01:52 AM   #3
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Good question, look at how great the V12 in the McLaren F1 was and still is...
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      01-04-2013, 08:26 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Munit View Post
So the biggest arguement I hear anyway is the fact that both emissions and the cost of design to design an engine like the s85/s65 since there is no scalability due to the engines being only in one model car. This makes perfect sense of course until I read some info about the 760LI with a 6 litre V12 with twin turbos. Forgot the exact number but it is an extremely low selling vehicle-lowest by far out of all of them, yet bmw takes the time and energy to create a one-off v12 for one car? It has horrible mileage, gas guzler and it actually only has 530hp which is super disappointing for a 6 litre twin turbo v12.

The only thing I can think of is that they build engines for bentley (or rolls? )one of the two with that same engine. However I read about taht and the engine in the bentley is stroked out by .6 litres so again its ecomony of scale is limited as that engine takes a bunch of specific tuning and research.

Basically why would bmw build a technolgically advanced v12 for a single model which is the lowest selling model of the fleet?

I think bmw should have left its M division to have reign on the M3 and produce a one-off engine with all performance based, just like the V12. It has the worst mileage out of the fleet as well. The buyers however are much more in number so they could atleast make some profit but even more importantly, think how much the m3 could stand out in terms of reviews, car tests etc which would build up the bmw brand as a whole.

I agree the direction of the m5, 6, x etc. They are more of a cruiser and never meant to be a true performance race car like the m3.
If you actually did some research, then you'd know that the V12's are not confirmed for the next 7 Series.
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      01-04-2013, 08:28 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W/// View Post
If you actually did some research, then you'd know that the V12's are not confirmed for the next 7 Series.
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It's one thing for some buffoon to put an M badge on something that doesn't deserve it...it's another for a multi-billion dollar corporation to do the exact same thing and keep a straight face.
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      01-04-2013, 08:43 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Munit View Post
Basically why would bmw build a technolgically advanced v12 for a single model which is the lowest selling model of the fleet?.
Uhhhhh because its the ultra-elite, executive class 7 series whose base price is $120K and the same block used by Rolls Royce

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If you actually did some research, then you'd know that the V12's are not confirmed for the next 7 Series.
Exactly
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      01-04-2013, 08:58 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Munit View Post
The only thing I can think of is that they build engines for bentley (or rolls? )one of the two with that same engine. However I read about taht and the engine in the bentley is stroked out by .6 litres so again its ecomony of scale is limited as that engine takes a bunch of specific tuning and research.
Bentley is owned by the VW group and not BMW. They now use VW derived engines, no longer BMW engines as they did in the past. Their V12 is two VR6s linked at the crank, sort of a W12.

Rolls Royce however is owned by the BMW group and uses BMW engines.
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      01-04-2013, 10:45 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W/// View Post
If you actually did some research, then you'd know that the V12's are not confirmed for the next 7 Series.
Of course they will have a v12 offering. Cant not have one for their flagship that is 40k more than the 750 or cannot not have one for the Rolls.
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      01-04-2013, 04:46 PM   #9
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If the V12 for the Rolls still has development necessary there will be a V12 BMW so that they can pass the development costs through BMW and not through Rolls. VW did the same with the Phaeton, which as noted above had its engine make its way to Bentley.
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      01-04-2013, 04:50 PM   #10
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Dude...did you make an account only to rant about the flaws of BMW and their M division?
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      01-04-2013, 09:38 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smashhell View Post
BMW owns Rolls Royce, so I think they use the 760i engine there.

As for why, I suppose they were developing a high power engine for Rolls and just decide to shove it in the 760 for the sake of it. I suppose it's a lot easier to put it in a similar size car than a small car like M3.

Also the reason why they didn't push more power out of a V12 is because it is not a performance engine. They made it for luxury cruiser for smooth power delivery.

*Oh and there was a high performance supercar with a BMW 6.0 L V12 engine. It's call the McLaren F1.
+1 the RR Ghost uses the TT N74 6.0 V12, while the Phantom uses an exclusive N/A 6.7 liter V12.

Since they are both relatively low production/high end vehicles (arguably the best in their respective classes) the cost of entry may justify the reason for their semi (in the case of the Ghost) exclusive (>Phantom) power trains.
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      01-04-2013, 10:01 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Munit View Post
I think bmw should have left its M division to have reign on the M3 and produce a one-off engine with all performance based...
My understanding is that BMW M is designing a unique engine for the new M3/M4. I have not heard that it will be in any other model, certainly not a non M model?!??!
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      01-05-2013, 10:33 AM   #13
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Quote:
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I think bmw should have left its M division to have reign on the M3 and produce a one-off engine with all performance based, just like the V12.
The 760i has an extremely high selling price which means an extremely high margin. The per vehicle revenue is partly what allows for the vehicle to carry the exclusive engine. There is also an established market segment for this type of vehicle based solely around the notion of a 12 cylinder engine as the genesis for the products' existence.

Secondly, consider that a turbocharged V8 for large M vehicles and a turbocharged I6 for medium sized M vehicles means that the overlap with series engines were obvious and ripe for exploitation. Sure M could have been given free reign to build their own I6 turbo from the ground up. Would you pay more for such an engine just to have no parts shared with an N55, even when no tangible benefits result?
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      01-05-2013, 11:37 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic311
Quote:
Originally Posted by Munit View Post
Basically why would bmw build a technolgically advanced v12 for a single model which is the lowest selling model of the fleet?.
Uhhhhh because its the ultra-elite, executive class 7 series whose base price is $120K and the same block used by Rolls Royce

Quote:
Originally Posted by W/// View Post
If you actually did some research, then you'd know that the V12's are not confirmed for the next 7 Series.
Exactly
It's called a flagship. There is no intent on making a profit on these models. Look at the Veyron, for every model made and sold VW loses money. They gain market share by building an image, not cutting costs on the top series.

+1 for no V12 on new 7
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