BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > E90/E92 M3 Technical Topics > Suspension | Brakes | Chassis
 
GTB Performance
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      01-02-2013, 07:40 PM   #23
Richard@M-World
 
Richard@M-World's Avatar
 
Drives: NASA TTA #92 M3
Join Date: May 2011
Location: TX/IL

Posts: 683
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by FormulaMMM View Post
So basically they matched your stock time? Believe that you might be pretty quick.. Can't imagine the clubsports count for nothing over stock. Wonder what their times were pre-clubsport.
I'd like to think that I am fast

Regarding Clubsport, here are some lap times from Hockenheim which may shed some light on its performance. From Sport Auto magazine.

a-workx M3: 1:12.4 (DCT, KW Clubsport, Akrapovic Evo, PSCup) 2009/10
2011 M3: 1:14.2 (DCT, ZCP, PS2) 2010/7
2008 M3: 1:14.3 (6MT, PSCup+) 2007/12
2008 M3 Sedan: 1:15.2 (6MT, PS2) 2008/4
__________________
Authorized AiM Dealer - Solo/Solo DL | SmartyCam HD | www.m-world.us
Richard@M-World is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-02-2013, 07:45 PM   #24
FormulaMMM
Major
 
FormulaMMM's Avatar
 
Drives: E90 M3
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Midwest

Posts: 1,295
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard@M-World View Post
I'd like to think that I am fast

Regarding Clubsport, here are some lap times from Hockenheim which may shed some light on its performance. From Sport Auto magazine.

a-workx M3: 1:12.4 (DCT, KW Clubsport, Akrapovic Evo, PSCup) 2009/10
2011 M3: 1:14.2 (DCT, ZCP, PS2) 2010/7
2008 M3: 1:14.3 (6MT, PSCup+) 2007/12
2008 M3 Sedan: 1:15.2 (6MT, PS2) 2008/4
Nice. Thanks.
__________________
DCT E90 M3: Akrapovic Slip-On, Stoptech ST-40 Front + Pagid RS29 | Stock Rear + Stoptech SP, Apex EC-7 18x10 ET25 + Nitto NT01 275/35/18 (for track), tbd...
Past: Velos Designwerks Tune, Megan Racing Catback then Akrapovic Evolution, Macht Schnell Filter
FormulaMMM is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-02-2013, 07:58 PM   #25
bigjae1976
Takes threads off topic...daily
 
bigjae1976's Avatar
 
Drives: 11 E90 M3 Individual
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Milwaukee, WI

Posts: 5,333
iTrader: (12)

Garage List
2004 BMW M3  [4.50]
2011 BMW E90 M3  [5.00]
2013 BMW 328i  [5.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard@M-World View Post
a-workx M3: 1:12.4 (DCT, KW Clubsport, Akrapovic Evo, PSCup) 2009/10
2011 M3: 1:14.2 (DCT, ZCP, PS2) 2010/7
1.8 seconds is a lot but how much of that is the PSCups vs PS2s?

Richard...I think a scientific test is in order!
__________________


Sponsored by Momentum BMW #593...We Bleed BMW BLUE!
bigjae1976 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-03-2013, 07:18 AM   #26
Zzhou
Lieutenant
 
Zzhou's Avatar
 
Drives: 2012 E92 SSII ZCP DCT
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: West Lafayette,IN/Shanghai,China

Posts: 525
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard@M-World
Quote:
Originally Posted by zhouzitao View Post
Very nice compare also helpful. I heard people saying that JRZ RS1 damper and ohlins R&T damper is better than KW CS. Is that true?
I will be straight and honest. I do not have much experience with JRZ or Ohlins, so I will not comment on whether they are "better" or not.

I do want to comment a little bit on KW and specifically their Clubsport and Competition lines.

As many of you know, on the E9X platform I have hands on experience with H&R coil over, H&R springs, Eibach springs, Dinan stage 1, Moton Street Sport, Moton Clubsport, KW Sleeve Over kit, KW V3, KW Clubsport, and KW Competition.

I only recommend what actually works to my customers, and I sell KW because they truly put in a thorough engineering effort (design, analysis, simulation, track testing, etc) on their kits for the M3.

When you receive a KW kit, it comes as an engineered, plug and play package. The springs are of the correct lengths and rates, the camber plates will actually fit (and not break) on your car, and the dampers are actually valved specifically for your car/set up.

Having a plug and play package means a lot to me and my customers because we want to spend time driving on the race track, and not fiddling with the suspension in the garage.

Unfortunately, in the past couple years, partly due to its popularity, there were way too many dealers (authorized and unauthorized) on the market. And many dealers, desperate for business, started heavily discounting KW products. Many sold KW at cost just to move units. And this has led to the perception that KW is somehow a discount product with inferior quality and performance to the other brands.

I think KW has been actively trying to address this problem, but it will take a long time to rebuild its brand.
So competition feels lot better on the track from your experience. Does competition kits come with helper spring like CS?
__________________

AA Green Filter/AA Pulley/AA catless X-pipes/AA signature exhaust/AA TUNE/TMS studs/Project Kics R40/AD08/Vorsteiner GTS5 Bumper/LUX H8
Zzhou is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-03-2013, 03:42 PM   #27
Richard@M-World
 
Richard@M-World's Avatar
 
Drives: NASA TTA #92 M3
Join Date: May 2011
Location: TX/IL

Posts: 683
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by zhouzitao View Post
So competition feels lot better on the track from your experience. Does competition kits come with helper spring like CS?
Yes. But you will have enough space for a wheel like 18x10 ET25, 275/35/18 tires because shorter springs are used. More pictures here: http://m-world.us/products_kw_competition.html
__________________
Authorized AiM Dealer - Solo/Solo DL | SmartyCam HD | www.m-world.us
Richard@M-World is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-03-2013, 08:03 PM   #28
BIU
Lieutenant
 
Drives: 2008 A22 E90 M3 DCT
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Hong Kong

Posts: 582
iTrader: (0)

On the subject of KW and helper springs...

Does the V3s come with helper springs or are they only needed on setups with linear springs (ie. Clubsport)?

With progressive springs unseat themselves at full droop or is this only prone to linear springs?

Sorry if I have misunderstood some basic knowledge along the way
BIU is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-03-2013, 08:33 PM   #29
Richard@M-World
 
Richard@M-World's Avatar
 
Drives: NASA TTA #92 M3
Join Date: May 2011
Location: TX/IL

Posts: 683
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BIU View Post
On the subject of KW and helper springs...

Does the V3s come with helper springs or are they only needed on setups with linear springs (ie. Clubsport)?

With progressive springs unseat themselves at full droop or is this only prone to linear springs?

Sorry if I have misunderstood some basic knowledge along the way
V3 for E9X M3 do not come with helper springs. They will stay seated at full droop.

The springs used for V3 are soft enough such that they compress sufficiently (from full droop to normal ride height) by the weight of the car to deliver proper ride heights.

For Clubsport, higher rate springs are used. Therefore, the springs may not compress sufficiently by the weight of the car to reach a reasonable ride height. To address this, the front axle lower spring perches have to be moved down to "lower the car" if you will. But this creates a gap between the spring and the spring perches. That's why helpers are added.

Looking at it using math:
(The numbers are made up)
  • Spring rate: 500 lb/in
  • Corner sprung weight: 1000 lb
  • Spring will compress 1000/500 = 2 in
But, we need suspension to compress 3 in to reach normal ride height.

Solution: move spring perch down by 1 in.

New problem: there is a 1 in gap between spring and perches at full droop.

New solution: add helper spring.

This may be a bit confusing so let me know if this makes sense.
__________________
Authorized AiM Dealer - Solo/Solo DL | SmartyCam HD | www.m-world.us
Richard@M-World is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-03-2013, 10:51 PM   #30
BIU
Lieutenant
 
Drives: 2008 A22 E90 M3 DCT
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Hong Kong

Posts: 582
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard@M-World View Post
V3 for E9X M3 do not come with helper springs. They will stay seated at full droop.

The springs used for V3 are soft enough such that they compress sufficiently (from full droop to normal ride height) by the weight of the car to deliver proper ride heights.

For Clubsport, higher rate springs are used. Therefore, the springs may not compress sufficiently by the weight of the car to reach a reasonable ride height. To address this, the front axle lower spring perches have to be moved down to "lower the car" if you will. But this creates a gap between the spring and the spring perches. That's why helpers are added.

Looking at it using math:
(The numbers are made up)
  • Spring rate: 500 lb/in
  • Corner sprung weight: 1000 lb
  • Spring will compress 1000/500 = 2 in
But, we need suspension to compress 3 in to reach normal ride height.

Solution: move spring perch down by 1 in.

New problem: there is a 1 in gap between spring and perches at full droop.

New solution: add helper spring.

This may be a bit confusing so let me know if this makes sense.

That makes perfect sense and you sir are a scholar

My only concern was the V3 springs possibly unseating from the car going on a lift (No weight of car)

Last edited by BIU; 01-03-2013 at 11:24 PM.
BIU is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-04-2013, 02:23 AM   #31
aus
Major General
 
Drives: Odysse
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Seal Beach, CA

Posts: 7,304
iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by biggynuts01 View Post
To add to your comment above.

I was previously a Pcar guy. I had a Cayman S. Just a few years back, on Planet-9 forum, KW coilovers were the best you can get and were pretty expensive. If you wanted track handling you get the V3s or CS, if you wanted just a drop you get the PSS9s.

Now, coming to the ///M forums, it looks like JRZ/Moton/Ohlins are for superior handling, while KW is just for lowering. Its good to hear that you think highly of KW.. Especially since I just ordered the KW CS

Its does seem like a lot of marketing and brand fads that are swaying decisions rather than real performance gains.
It's also why so many venders and even manufactures are on the forums talking up products and even given deals so they get positive reviews on forums. And people will obviously tend to like what they spent money on and talk it up.
__________________
Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."
aus is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      02-24-2013, 12:42 PM   #32
ortho281
Captain
 
ortho281's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 E92 M3 6MT
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Katy, TX

Posts: 646
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard@M-World View Post
V3 for E9X M3 do not come with helper springs. They will stay seated at full droop.

The springs used for V3 are soft enough such that they compress sufficiently (from full droop to normal ride height) by the weight of the car to deliver proper ride heights.

For Clubsport, higher rate springs are used. Therefore, the springs may not compress sufficiently by the weight of the car to reach a reasonable ride height. To address this, the front axle lower spring perches have to be moved down to "lower the car" if you will. But this creates a gap between the spring and the spring perches. That's why helpers are added.

Looking at it using math:
(The numbers are made up)
  • Spring rate: 500 lb/in
  • Corner sprung weight: 1000 lb
  • Spring will compress 1000/500 = 2 in
But, we need suspension to compress 3 in to reach normal ride height.

Solution: move spring perch down by 1 in.

New problem: there is a 1 in gap between spring and perches at full droop.

New solution: add helper spring.

This may be a bit confusing so let me know if this makes sense.
Hi Richard, Makes perfect sense! You answered many questions. Here is another. The KW S/O are progressive and also does not require a helper spring, even set to max lowering. Are the S/O spring rates similar to that of the V3?
__________________

Akra Evo / MS stage 2 / MS UDP / VF Tune / KW S/O springs / Vorshlag plates / ST 380/355 BBK / ST SR34 pads / Apex Arc-8 / Nitto NT01 / Cantrell Motorsports roll cage / Recaro Profi / Schroth Profi II-6 / BMW Performance Alcantera wheel

Last edited by ortho281; 02-25-2013 at 12:36 PM.
ortho281 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:22 PM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST