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      01-01-2013, 10:36 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redloro View Post
And what about the S6, M5 and E63 comparo:
http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...omparison-test

As a recent RS4 owner, I almost cancelled my E92 order after reading this...although would've prolly gone with the RS5.

Having played extensively with both manufacturers, I think it can be summed up pretty simply: BMW is built to drive whereas Audi is built to enjoy. So if you're like me and you want to enjoy your drive (hehe..) you can find yourself on the fence. I'll prolly go back to an RS something in a year or so.
I also came to an M3 from the RS4.

M3 has better steering, better suspension, better chassis/body dynamics. You always know where you are in the relation to the cars limits when driving hard. You can literally feel what the car is doing in a way that you just didn't in the RS4.

Engine is basically a toss up.

Stock exhaust is better in the RS4.

RS4 is easier to drive closer to the limit due to the grip of AWD.

M3 will put giggles on your face more than the RS4, once you really learn to drive it. It took me about a year to master the M3 to a point where I could drive it as hard as the RS4 and be in control. With the RS4, there was really no learning curve. Quattro allows you to just get in and go, but the trade-off is that the car just doesn't feel as sharp as an M3.
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      01-01-2013, 10:43 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
Y'know, the current RS5 isn't quite as quick as the M3 in a straight line, but it's a bit quicker around a road course. Things change.

Bruce
It may be faster around the course, but that is strictly due to quattro. What I mean is that anyone who is an enthusiast will tell you that the M3 flat out feels more connected than the Audi
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      01-01-2013, 11:02 AM   #91
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It may be faster around the course, but that is strictly due to quattro. What I mean is that anyone who is an enthusiast will tell you that the M3 flat out feels more connected than the Audi
Correct. Take the same enthusiast driver after one year of ownership with each car, and I'll bet they will be able to take the M3 around a track faster than an RS5. On day one, they will be faster in the RS5. The M3 has a learning curve, but the RS5, due to quattro, really doesn't.
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      01-01-2013, 11:58 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by LarThaL View Post
Correct. Take the same enthusiast driver after one year of ownership with each car, and I'll bet they will be able to take the M3 around a track faster than an RS5. On day one, they will be faster in the RS5. The M3 has a learning curve, but the RS5, due to quattro, really doesn't.
You will lose money. Check out fastestlaps.com and type in RS5 vs M3 (where the RS5 wins 12 out of 15), and/or check out the "Fifth Gear" episode where the racer types find that the RS5 is just that little bit quicker around a road course.

Not to take anything away from the M3. It's more fun to drive (on the street or on track), according to the road testers.

Bruce
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      01-01-2013, 12:06 PM   #93
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Quote:
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It may be faster around the course, but that is strictly due to quattro.
Your point?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Antonio1988 View Post
What I mean is that anyone who is an enthusiast will tell you that the M3 flat out feels more connected than the Audi
Y'know, on the street, I believe that (although I've never driven an RS5). That Fifth Gear piece was an eye opener for me, though. On track, the RS5 was easier to drive, and at the limit, seemed better connected than the M3, whose driver nearlly lost it more than once whilst trying to keep up.

We're splitting hairs, though. Both terrific cars, and pick 'em.

Bruce

Last edited by bruce.augenstein@comcast.; 01-01-2013 at 12:40 PM. Reason: Spelling
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      01-01-2013, 12:39 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
You will lose money. Check out fastestlaps.com and type in RS5 vs M3 (where the RS5 wins 12 out of 15), and/or check out the "Fifth Gear" episode where the racer types find that the RS5 is just that little bit quicker around a road course.

Not to take anything away from the M3. It's more fun to drive (on the street or on track), according to the road testers.

Bruce
Again, my point is that the testers haven't had enough time to learn the M3. You need about a year of ownership, continuously pushing the limits. Until then, anyone will be faster in the RS5. I know because I have lived this transition with my previous RS4.
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      01-01-2013, 12:48 PM   #95
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Again, my point is that the testers haven't had enough time to learn the M3. You need about a year of ownership, continuously pushing the limits. Until then, anyone will be faster in the RS5. I know because I have lived this transition with my previous RS4.
NO.

You needed a year of ownership. Experienced racers (such as the Fifth Gear guys) need maybe ten laps. Probably less.

Bruce
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      01-01-2013, 12:58 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
NO.

You needed a year of ownership. Experienced racers (such as the Fifth Gear guys) need maybe ten laps. Probably less.

Bruce


Who the hell needs a whole year of ownership to learn to drive a car let alone an M3? Maybe if its a garage queen and only driven once a month.
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      01-01-2013, 02:32 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
NO.

You needed a year of ownership. Experienced racers (such as the Fifth Gear guys) need maybe ten laps. Probably less.

Bruce
Okay. Point taken. I owned my RS4 for 4 years, and I drove it all year round. I only drive my M3 in nice weather and have owned it for 18 months. So, yes, for me, it took time until I was as comfortable pushing my M3 as I was in the RS4 after 4 years. But I see your point that people who do this stuff all the time wouldn't need so long.
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      01-01-2013, 02:49 PM   #98
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      01-01-2013, 04:17 PM   #99
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Quote:
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Okay. Point taken. I owned my RS4 for 4 years, and I drove it all year round. I only drive my M3 in nice weather and have owned it for 18 months. So, yes, for me, it took time until I was as comfortable pushing my M3 as I was in the RS4 after 4 years. But I see your point that people who do this stuff all the time wouldn't need so long.
There's more, though.

Although race experience is amazingly helpful, the deal is that learning how to get the most out of a car on a given race track is easy, compared with getting the most from a car on the street.

On a race track, you've typically got twelve to fifteen turns, so if you have no race experience, it might take you 500 laps or more (with coaching) to start to get fast - but you'll get there in a tiny fraction of the time that it would take you on the street.

In actual point of fact, you can't get going really fast on the street - ever.

On track, there's never a kid running out there chasing a soccer ball, there's never sand or dirt or oil out there, there's never a couch positioned right across the road near the apex, or an eighteen wheeler coming around that blind curve, straddling the centerline, etc. -

- or if there is something out there that needs your attention, a corner worker will conveniently point that out to you using various flags.

On track, they also never put telephone poles, or fire hydrants, or whatever, next to the line.

So, a track is the only place you can go really fast. On the street, going really fast means you're going to sooner rather than later get maimed or killed, or be put behind bars - period.

Finally, it is very hard to overstate the difference between track driving and street driving. Very hard.

As to the RS4, if it wasn't scaring you from time to time, you just weren't going fast enough. The Audi needs some manhandling at the limit, meaning, for instance, oversharp turn-in while giving the brake pedal a sharp jab on some turns, just to get the damned thing to rotate. Trust me, when you're doing this, you're going to get it wrong from time to time, threatening underwear, at least.

Bruce

Last edited by bruce.augenstein@comcast.; 01-01-2013 at 04:23 PM.
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      01-01-2013, 05:04 PM   #100
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I just read that " Audi To Invest $17 Billion To Beat Bimmer".
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      01-01-2013, 05:42 PM   #101
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I just read that " Audi To Invest $17 Billion To Beat Bimmer".
I love the competition. Upping the ante is healthy...provides us with better performing cars. I hope I live to see the day when a plateau is reached...what an awesome bunch of cars there'll be.
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      01-01-2013, 06:36 PM   #102
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A buddy of mine had a a lease on an S5 and said he couldn't wait for his lease to be over. He ran into a lot of trouble especially electrical.
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      01-01-2013, 06:40 PM   #103
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I just read that " Audi To Invest $17 Billion To Beat Bimmer".
http://www.topspeed.com/cars/car-new...-ar141176.html
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      01-01-2013, 06:56 PM   #104
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I just read that " Audi To Invest $17 Billion To Beat Bimmer".
http://www.topspeed.com/cars/car-new...-ar141176.html
Thanks for posting the link Dave
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      01-01-2013, 10:37 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by jimmy ny View Post
Well my m3 had active auto hfc. Check light once in a blue moon. Running a car with no cats is not an option. My car is newer and with stasis warranties. Apr is not an option and will void your warranty and barely make any more power over stasis for the hassle. I just can't admit that the M3 is better than my S5. Jeez my clk 550 was a better car than my S5.
There, fixed it (more accurate) for you

This is for your viewing (in denial) pleasure
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      01-02-2013, 09:18 AM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
There's more, though.

Although race experience is amazingly helpful, the deal is that learning how to get the most out of a car on a given race track is easy, compared with getting the most from a car on the street.

On a race track, you've typically got twelve to fifteen turns, so if you have no race experience, it might take you 500 laps or more (with coaching) to start to get fast - but you'll get there in a tiny fraction of the time that it would take you on the street.

In actual point of fact, you can't get going really fast on the street - ever.

On track, there's never a kid running out there chasing a soccer ball, there's never sand or dirt or oil out there, there's never a couch positioned right across the road near the apex, or an eighteen wheeler coming around that blind curve, straddling the centerline, etc. -

- or if there is something out there that needs your attention, a corner worker will conveniently point that out to you using various flags.

On track, they also never put telephone poles, or fire hydrants, or whatever, next to the line.

So, a track is the only place you can go really fast. On the street, going really fast means you're going to sooner rather than later get maimed or killed, or be put behind bars - period.

Finally, it is very hard to overstate the difference between track driving and street driving. Very hard.

As to the RS4, if it wasn't scaring you from time to time, you just weren't going fast enough. The Audi needs some manhandling at the limit, meaning, for instance, oversharp turn-in while giving the brake pedal a sharp jab on some turns, just to get the damned thing to rotate. Trust me, when you're doing this, you're going to get it wrong from time to time, threatening underwear, at least.

Bruce
Great points about unwise street driving. People should be be encouraged to do as many track days as possible, or at least autocross, to get the urge to race on the street out of their systems. Unfortunately, this is easier said than done.

As far as the RS4, you allude to the the unfortunate understeer of this car due to engine placement, among other things. This can be corrected with experience and skill--real pro drivers can handle anything. For the track day person, it's more of a problem than the M3.
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      01-03-2013, 07:33 AM   #107
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I test drove the panamera gts, e63, m5, s6,and a gs350 fsport a few weeks back as I'm looking to get a new car for transporting clients and for grocery shopping and costco runs as my other car is impractical but very fun. I liked the panamera gts and s6 the most and m5 the least because the suspension and steering feels awful, but I'll probably end up with the gs350 fsport. It's a lot cheaper (and slower), probably a lot more reliable than the rest, and I already have a car for fun.

The car bmw should've made is the e60 m5 with the v10 and dct. Now that would have been a great car.
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      01-03-2013, 07:59 AM   #108
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I test drove the panamera gts, e63, m5, s6,and a gs350 fsport a few weeks back as I'm looking to get a new car for transporting clients and for grocery shopping and costco runs as my other car is impractical but very fun. I liked the panamera gts and s6 the most and m5 the least because the suspension and steering feels awful, but I'll probably end up with the gs350 fsport. It's a lot cheaper (and slower), probably a lot more reliable than the rest, and I already have a car for fun.

The car bmw should've made is the e60 m5 with the v10 and dct. Now that would have been a great car.
You can get the V10 in the new BMW M5. Just have BMW change the mp3 of the present V8 to the V10 and run that through the speakers.
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      01-03-2013, 02:59 PM   #109
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I find Audi's U.S. television market advertising most tiresome. And I wouldn't buy one even if I knew it would be under manufacturer warranty for my entire ownership period, for fear that I would wind up in a dealer loaner far too often. I know a few people that have had good reliability with them, but some other people that have had real doozies.
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      01-03-2013, 04:29 PM   #110
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You can get the V10 in the new BMW M5. Just have BMW change the mp3 of the present V8 to the V10 and run that through the speakers.
LOL
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