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      08-24-2007, 06:57 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Surfer01 View Post
Way to lay it down BRA way to go i totally agree no need to waste time in this thread! Peace!!
Bro, can I ask if you feel my questions are rhetorical? I really do expect answers to them...
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      08-24-2007, 08:47 AM   #90
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Hey hks,

If you repost those questions you've had, I'd still like to see them.
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      08-24-2007, 09:25 AM   #91
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Hey hks,

If you repost those questions you've had, I'd still like to see them.
Hello,

Yeah I'm just trying to decide if I should show you them or whether to ask you to read from the beginning of the thread. I know it'll be very time consuming for you to read but maybe it would be best if you did read all of the thread. You'll be able to see the questions I have.

However, I'll try re-post my questions in one big post. Sorry!
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      08-24-2007, 09:28 AM   #92
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I've read this entire thread.

I saw some of them, but also that you said your questions weren't answered in other threads (which I have not seen), and made me feel that I'd missed out and wanted to know which ones you wanted me to try to answer first?
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      08-24-2007, 09:31 AM   #93
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He did die, as a sacrifice for humanity.

I think were you might misinterpret this, judging from our previous posts, is that just because he died for the sins of Man, it does NOT mean that all sins are forgiven and we have free reign to commit whatever our weak flesh wants. After teh resurection, Jesus returned to the apostles to give them a charter for what became the new church. A part of that was where he granted teh apostles teh ability to forgive sins IF they are confessed. A part of that decision lies with the priest hearing the confession. I don't have explicit tuition on this subject since I did not enter the preisthood, but a detected feeling of remorse, and suitable penance must be preformed before the sin is forgiven. I can't quote you the verse but it's along eht lines of "those sins you forgive are forgiven, those you hold bound are held bound"
I know that Romans says that "the wages of sin is death" but if you say there had to be a sacrifice for forgiveness, you are limiting God's ability. God has no requirements to forgive. Allah says in the Quran that he says "be" and it is.

Also, why should you have to confess your sins to anyone other than God? I feel that Islam is the truth because it understands the concept of sin much differently.

Allah firstly says that "man was created weak". His noble Prophet (SAW) also said that "All children of Adam (AS) are sinners, but the best of sinners are those who repent".

However, I feel that the Bible contradicts itself. Jesus tells many parables etc that show us that forgiveness has NO requirement at all. The fact is that Allah is so loving and understanding about our weaknesses. He encourages us to go to him for forgiveness. He has the absolute power to exercise forgivess without any requirement. That my friend, is love.


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Originally Posted by UncleWede
Hence, we have an intermediary to absolve us of our sins. Having the humility to confess to another human, who will judge and help you with the proper decision is a good thing.
You speak of showing humility to another human, why not show humility to the one Lord who CREATED you? It is God's law you broke, not the person you confess to. We believe that Allah alone has the power to forgive sins. Why should we require anyone else to forgive us?

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Jesus died so that all may avail themselves of his saving grace, Jew or Gentile. But, you must beleive in his nature and grace.
Well, if I was to respond to that I would firstly ask who is Jesus? I have shown at great length that he is not the Son of God. Now, even if he was the Son of God, it would be theologically impossible for him to die for the sins of the world. I feel there are just far too many impossiblities and unanswered questions like in the above post by me...

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Originally Posted by UncleWede
He did NOT wipe out our sins, but won the right AS A HUMAN to forgive sins, and those that are forgiven by his grace never existed.
Okay bro. Lets suppose he paved the way for forgiveness. Either way, it still limits God's abilities to forgive. He needs nothing to forgive us. Anyway, how can God win any rights? he has full rights of everything since he is the creator. That statement limits God's abilities.

Also, how can we say that Jesus won the right as a HUMAN and then go on to say Jesus is God? If you are human, you cannot be God. They are completely different and it starts with God being infinite and Humans being finite. I posted this in post #445 in "World without mass religion":

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...&postcount=445

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Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
I think I posted that somewhere else, that there are portions of God that FAR surpass our humble understanding, and that is where FAITH begins.
Faith must be based on something. How can you base it on nothing? If that is the case, how can you tell me to embrace Christ instead of Hinduism? Also, it is only to easy to say that we cannot understand the "mysteries of God". So by admitting we dont understand them, how can we believe it?

What I'm really trying to say is that how can you base faith on something you cannot be sure of OR understand?

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Originally Posted by hav2flynow
God has a spirit just like our flesh body have a spirit.
But how do we know this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hav2flynow
Yes he did die as a blood sacrifice for all men
Why was this sacrifice needed when the Bible clearly shows that people can be forgiven if they turn to God and repent?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hav2flynow
We lived in bodys of light with our spirit for millions of years as we will again, before Satans pridefull downfall. Since 1/3 of Gods children chose to follow Satan (Ezekiel 28: God loved Satan and made him the full pattern, before he became pridefull and turned on God) who was trying to take the mercy seat from God, God had to put our spirit in a flesh body to sort out who would (as a second chance) follow Him or Satan.(Thoes that wont follow the Father and chose to follow Satan will go into the lake of fire and the rest will again go back into our light bodys for eternity) Genesis 6:6 It grieved God that he made (flesh)man on the Earth. Satan did not appear in the garden at the creation of Adam and Eve (read Genesis 1:26, 6th day creation, Adam and Eve were 8th day creation, Genesis 2:7) from nowhere, we were in a perfect age with "Freewill". God will not make his children love him because that therefore would not be love.
Thanks bro, but I’m not sure this narration of events really answers my questions. Firstly, this is man’s word, not Gods. I’m sorry but the root of this problem goes way back to how the Bible was compiled. I’m not going to go into this since it is such a lengthy subject, BUT I cant see how any of this can be God’s word. Maybe parts of it are God’s word, but the fact is we cant be sure.

The fact is that thoughout the Bible we say that Paul and Jesus say different things etc. We see less of Jesus' original teachings as the Gospels progress etc. We see clear evidence that the 4 Gospels disagree when accounting the same events. We see the build up and heightening of Jesus' position from a Prophet of God to being God himself. etc.
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      08-24-2007, 09:33 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Noize View Post
I've read this entire thread.

I saw some of them, but also that you said your questions weren't answered in other threads (which I have not seen), and made me feel that I'd missed out and wanted to know which ones you wanted me to try to answer first?

Ah, I see. Well basically I was refering to when me and UncleWede used to discuss it in the Are we at war with Islam? thread. Bro why dont you try answer the ones in this thread, I'm sure my questions will come up again in our discussion Do you want me to continue pasting my posts or do you want to just answer them?
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      08-24-2007, 11:03 AM   #95
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All you who have bashed HK as a wolf sure wouldn't make very good missionaries. The easy ones are the ones who already beleive what you are saying. The real yoke of Jesus' Love is in spreading it to those who challenge your faith.
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      08-24-2007, 12:20 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by hks786 View Post
I know that Romans says that "the wages of sin is death" but if you say there had to be a sacrifice for forgiveness, you are limiting God's ability. God has no requirements to forgive. Allah says in the Quran that he says "be" and it is.
The Quran tells that truth is found in the Bible and that we are not to waver from it.

Surah 10:94 And if you (Muhammad) are in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto you, then question those who read the Scripture (that was) before you. So be not of the waverers.


The Quran commands you to believe the scripture.

Surah 4:136 O you who believe! Believe in Allah and His messenger and the Scriputre which He has revealed unto His messenger, and the Scripture which He revealed aforetime Whosoever disbelieves in Allah and His angels and His Scriptures and His messengers and the Last day he verily has wandered far astray.

Genesis:
Adam was in perfect relationship with God in the Garden of Eden. He saw God, talked with God, and knew what God was like. God commanded Adam not to eat of the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. God told him that in the day that he ate from it, he would die. Satan tempted Eve, she ate of the forbidden fruit, then she offered it to Adam who also ate it. Immediately, they felt shame, tried to cover their nakedness, and hid from God. Adam and Eve did not die physically that day. However, they were cast out of the garden and separated from God that day.

As you stated, Romans 3:23 says "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." **The Bible tells us that the penalty of sin is death.


Quote:
Also, why should you have to confess your sins to anyone other than God? I feel that Islam is the truth because it understands the concept of sin much differently.

Allah firstly says that "man was created weak". His noble Prophet (SAW) also said that "All children of Adam (AS) are sinners, but the best of sinners are those who repent".

However, I feel that the Bible contradicts itself. Jesus tells many parables etc that show us that forgiveness has NO requirement at all. The fact is that Allah is so loving and understanding about our weaknesses. He encourages us to go to him for forgiveness. He has the absolute power to exercise forgivess without any requirement. That my friend, is love.
Because Christians see Jesus as God, as the Messiah. Just because our finite minds cannot process infinity and physically understand the Trinity as a concrete tangible, does mean its not true or you have somehow disproven it? Of course not!

Sin means separation from from God, who is life. Physical death entered the world because of Adam and Eve's sin, but the big penalty of sin is that is separates us from God. Adam and Eve's attempts to cover their shame (nakedness) was useless, but God killed an animal and covered them in animal skin. In short, sin produces death. Death is separation from God.

After God gave Moses the Ten Commandments, He told Moses to build an altar so that when the people sinned, they might bring a blood sacrifice as an offering for sin. And for the next 1500 years, until Jesus came, every day the people saw the penalty of sin- death. Those who wanted to be in right standing before God had to bring the offering that God required for their sin.

That is to say, in the the very fabric of the existence of His people, Israel, God wove the picture of the blood sacrifice. The Passover feast that celebrated their deliverance from bondage reminded them of the lamb that died and became the substitute for them. The constant sacrifices for sin reminded them that the penalty of sin was death.

When Christ came into the picture (who Christians believed as the Messiah), the debt of His blood offering paid the price in full.



Quote:
You speak of showing humility to another human, why not show humility to the one Lord who CREATED you? It is God's law you broke, not the person you confess to. We believe that Allah alone has the power to forgive sins. Why should we require anyone else to forgive us?
Because the Christian faith sees The Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit as God.


Quote:
Well, if I was to respond to that I would firstly ask who is Jesus? I have shown at great length that he is not the Son of God.
That's your opinion, but you are far from proof. Only statements.

Quote:
Now, even if he was the Son of God, it would be theologically impossible for him to die for the sins of the world.
Why do you feel that God made flesh and sacrificed to pay once and for all for man's sin to those who believe is theologically impossible? Based on what?

Quote:
Okay bro. Lets suppose he paved the way for forgiveness. Either way, it still limits God's abilities to forgive. He needs nothing to forgive us. Anyway, how can God win any rights? he has full rights of everything since he is the creator. That statement limits God's abilities.
It doesn't limit his ability to forgive at all. We (by sinning) are CHOOSING separation. If you offer me your hand, but I slap it away, I've hardened my heart against you by refusing to take it. Holiness doesn't take unholiness. We're in a sin filled world and cannot comprehend (finite) black and white. And we sure cannot attain holiness by ourselves because of our sinful nature. Jesus as God made flesh is the only person who never sinned once. Muhammad certainly can't claim that!

Quote:
Also, how can we say that Jesus won the right as a HUMAN and then go on to say Jesus is God? If you are human, you cannot be God. They are completely different and it starts with God being infinite and Humans being finite. I posted this in post #445 in "World without mass religion"
Again, you're putting your finite restrictions on the infinite God that you cannot_physically_understand. How can man's laws define the God that wrote the book? Answer: They can't.

Quote:
Faith must be based on something. How can you base it on nothing? If that is the case, how can you tell me to embrace Christ instead of Hinduism? Also, it is only to easy to say that we cannot understand the "mysteries of God". So by admitting we dont understand them, how can we believe it? What I'm really trying to say is that how can you base faith on something you cannot be sure of OR understand?
If you can't see what my faith is based on from the above writing, I don't know if we will be able to understand each other and have a coherent dialog.
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      08-24-2007, 12:20 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
All you who have bashed HK as a wolf sure wouldn't make very good missionaries. The easy ones are the ones who already beleive what you are saying. The real yoke of Jesus' Love is in spreading it to those who challenge your faith.
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      08-24-2007, 02:35 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Noize
The Quran tells that truth is found in the Bible and that we are not to waver from it.
Aha, good point. Sadly, the Bible is not what we are told to accept. We are told to accept God's previous revelation in the Injeel. The Injeel is what was revealed to Prophet Isa (AS). The Bible we have presently is not that. There are many reasons for that, maybe we could start a new thread - Is the Bible the word of God?

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Originally Posted by Noize
As you stated, Romans 3:23 says "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." **The Bible tells us that the penalty of sin is death.
This is my very point. Since the Bible is the word of man, how can we trust it's words? I think we would have to really look at the question - Is the Bible the word of God. Morever, if we look at MANY parts of the Bible, we can see that it wasnt divinely inspired. Infact, even the compilation ALONE tells us this. Here's just one verse though:

Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.
Luke (1:1-4)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Noize
Because Christians see Jesus as God, as the Messiah. Just because our finite minds cannot process infinity and physically understand the Trinity as a concrete tangible, does mean its not true or you have somehow disproven it? Of course not!
It is only too easy for people to create a new concept and then claim it can never be understood because we are finite and God is infinite. I believe that if we are even going to use the word "trinity" then yes, we must apply simple logic to it. The word trinity suggests that there are 3 parts of God. I'm simply showing that this concept does not work on any ground of logic. We cannot simply say logic cant be used because our minds cant process God because he is infinite.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noize
Physical death entered the world because of Adam and Eve's sin, but the big penalty of sin is that is separates us from God.
I dont think that is possible. You even admitted that we are finite. Therefore, we are never going to live forever on Earth, our lives will eventually be over. This Earth is finite too. Everything on it is finite.

Moreover, if you say Physical death entered the world because of the first sin, then this hasnt really changed has it? Even believing in Jesus (thus having salvation) doesnt reverse this. You are living proof of it.

Also, we muslims dont believe in original sin as a curse etc. We believe that Allah created the universe and created us. We also believe that Adam (AS) and Eve (May Allah be pleased with them) were taught an original lesson in Heaven. They were taught that the Devil can trick us into sinning, and yes it did lead to a sin. But it was part of Allah's plan. He designed this Earth for human life (animal/plant life too, which is needed for human life) which I can prove scientifically in a thousand ways. Thus, he intended for us to live on Earth all along.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noize
That's your opinion, but you are far from proof. Only statements.
I'm not so sure that it is. I have shown that the title "Son of God" can be bestowed on quite a lot of people. Infact, even David in the Bible is called the begotted Son of God. On top of that, I have shown how illogical it is to believe that Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus (AS) even makes it clear that he was sent by God, he ISNT God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noize
Why do you feel that God made flesh and sacrificed to pay once and for all for man's sin to those who believe is theologically impossible? Based on what?
The Bible has a conflicting message about how our sins can be dealt with. A lot of the Bible tells us that God can choose to forgive us. Now, the rest of the Bible tells us that God NEEDED to die for us. Which is it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noize
It doesn't limit his ability to forgive at all. We (by sinning) are CHOOSING separation. If you offer me your hand, but I slap it away, I've hardened my heart against you by refusing to take it. Holiness doesn't take unholiness. We're in a sin filled world and cannot comprehend (finite) black and white. And we sure cannot attain holiness by ourselves because of our sinful nature. Jesus as God made flesh is the only person who never sinned once. Muhammad certainly can't claim that!
I feel the last statement was unnecessary but anyway...

Firstly, I believe we can obtain holiness. We only need to turn to God and follow his laws for that. We dont need anything else. UncleWede said that we wouldnt choose God if we had the choice. I dont think that's true. Some people do actually choose God. Let's pretend they dont (which they do), has that changed because of the "crucifixion"? No. Not everyone chooses God. So it remains that NOTHING will make ALL of us choose God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noize
Again, you're putting your finite restrictions on the infinite God that you cannot_physically_understand. How can man's laws define the God that wrote the book? Answer: They can't.
I feel that I have answered this above. One other comment I would like to make is that I feel that God would never create us in such a way that we could never understand him and then want us to understand the way he wants us to live. Part of understanding the way he wants is to live, is understanding Allah's beautiful nature etc. Thus, it means we could never have a personal relationship with God if we couldnt understand him.

Infact, you a are a Christian and through all your study of it you still say that we cannot understand God with our physical mind. I feel that it is only too easy to claim that.

Also, you said that I cant put "finite restrictions" on God. I'm not doing that at all. It's clear that God made his own parameters. He is infinite, everything else is infinite. Now, for you to tell me that he would become man in flesh and mix infinite/finite beings (as I explained), I think you would need to prove this. We cannot make this assumption or concept with no proof.

If you can't see what my faith is based on from the above writing, I don't know if we will be able to understand each other and have a coherent dialog.

I do, really my friend, I do see it. But I just cant agree with you on what you would call it...
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      08-24-2007, 04:51 PM   #99
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See Noize, he's a tough nut to crack (pun intended)
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      08-24-2007, 07:04 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hks786 View Post
Aha, good point. Sadly, the Bible is not what we are told to accept. We are told to accept God's previous revelation in the Injeel. The Injeel is what was revealed to Prophet Isa (AS). The Bible we have presently is not that. There are many reasons for that, maybe we could start a new thread - Is the Bible the word of God?
Or we could stay here to keep it concise. That way we'll not to have to thread jump to have a discussion.


Quote:
This is my very point. Since the Bible is the word of man, how can we trust it's words? I think we would have to really look at the question - Is the Bible the word of God.
Well, I see the Quran as the word of a man (Muhammad), and believe the Bible is the true Word of God. Since Christians see Jesus as God the Son, and His words are printed in four different accounts, I see it quite literally as the Word of God. Its a difference in our perception.

Quote:
Morever, if we look at MANY parts of the Bible, we can see that it wasnt divinely inspired. Infact, even the compilation ALONE tells us this. Here's just one verse though:

Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.
Luke (1:1-4)
What you see as "not divinely inspired", I see as History with 3 additional back up accounts.

The one you've chosen to cite above is the account of Luke, who was a Doctor. He wrote two books, Luke and Acts. This was circa A.D. 65. Also, several parts in Acts state "we", as he was a companion to the apostle Paul. Luke was not an eye witness to the life of Christ.

Matthew (Levi) was one of the 12 original apostles. Some believe the book to have been written as early as 50 A.D., while others think it could be around 70 A.D. The apostle Matthew was an eye witness to the life of Christ.

Mark was written by John Mark, a close associate of Peter. It consists of the preachings of Peter, and his direct accounts. Authorship, from what I understand through study, occured somewhere between 50-60 A.D. As far as I know, Mark himself was not an eye witness to the life of Christ, as Peter was.

John was supposedly the same time as Mark or shortly thereafter, and the author was the apostle John, "the disciple who Jesus loved" in the book. Most all evidence supports this, as the author was an eye witness to the life of Christ.


Quote:
It is only too easy for people to create a new concept and then claim it can never be understood because we are finite and God is infinite. I believe that if we are even going to use the word "trinity" then yes, we must apply simple logic to it. The word trinity suggests that there are 3 parts of God. I'm simply showing that this concept does not work on any ground of logic. We cannot simply say logic cant be used because our minds cant process God because he is infinite.
Quote:
Infact, you a are a Christian and through all your study of it you still say that we cannot understand God with our physical mind. I feel that it is only too easy to claim that.
Quote:
Also, you said that I cant put "finite restrictions" on God. I'm not doing that at all. It's clear that God made his own parameters. He is infinite, everything else is infinite. Now, for you to tell me that he would become man in flesh and mix infinite/finite beings (as I explained), I think you would need to prove this. We cannot make this assumption or concept with no proof.
Quote:
I dont think that is possible. You even admitted that we are finite. Therefore, we are never going to live forever on Earth, our lives will eventually be over. This Earth is finite too. Everything on it is finite.

I feel as though you are being inconsistent in what you are saying. Like on one hand you're asking me to cough up scientific proof of everything I state, and the other hand you agree that God is infinite. Which is it? Not only can our minds not fully understand the Trinity at this time, but they also cannot process physically how God created Heaven, Earth, man. But we both obviously believe this over something like the Big Bang Theory. Can YOU, hks, scientifically prove that God created the world? No! But you believe in faith, and you behold His creation. We can't see the wind either, but we know it is there, because we can feel it. Since we both believe that God created The heavens the earth and all that is in it, it stands to reason that God was here- Genesis 1, and IS still here (from a Christian's point of view in the form of the Holy Spirit). All this to say, our finite "ground of logic" just can't begin to fully process an Infinite God among us.

Quote:
Moreover, if you say Physical death entered the world because of the first sin, then this hasnt really changed has it? Even believing in Jesus (thus having salvation) doesnt reverse this. You are living proof of it.
Quote:
I'm not so sure that it is. I have shown that the title "Son of God" can be bestowed on quite a lot of people. Infact, even David in the Bible is called the begotted Son of God. On top of that, I have shown how illogical it is to believe that Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus (AS) even makes it clear that he was sent by God, he ISNT God.
I'm not just talking about physically dying, but separation from God for all eternity. "For God so loved the world that he gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him. Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." -John 3:16-18


Quote:
Also, we muslims dont believe in original sin as a curse etc. We believe that Allah created the universe and created us. We also believe that Adam (AS) and Eve (May Allah be pleased with them) were taught an original lesson in Heaven. They were taught that the Devil can trick us into sinning, and yes it did lead to a sin. But it was part of Allah's plan. He designed this Earth for human life (animal/plant life too, which is needed for human life) which I can prove scientifically in a thousand ways. Thus, he intended for us to live on Earth all along.
I don't think there was ever an intention for us not to live on earth. But man was warned not to eat from the tree in the middle of garden, or they (Adam and Eve) would die.


Quote:
The Bible has a conflicting message about how our sins can be dealt with. A lot of the Bible tells us that God can choose to forgive us. Now, the rest of the Bible tells us that God NEEDED to die for us. Which is it?
There's no inconsistency. Sin demands a sacrifice for forgiveness. Before Christ, it was an animal as a sacrificial offering. After, the blood of Christ.


Quote:
One other comment I would like to make is that I feel that God would never create us in such a way that we could never understand him and then want us to understand the way he wants us to live. Part of understanding the way he wants is to live, is understanding Allah's beautiful nature etc. Thus, it means we could never have a personal relationship with God if we couldnt understand him.
To a Christian, the Bible is a roadmap on how God wants us to live.

Since you have done most of the pitching and we have done most of the catching, I have a comment I would like to make as well. You say the Bible isn't consistent. Lets talk about the Quran and hadith for a minute. One huge issue to consider are miracles. The hadith contain various stories about Muhammad performing miracles. The Quran say that Muhammad was just a man who did not do miracles and signs that proved he was a prophet of Allah. How do you handle this contradiction of the Quran and hadith? Since the Quran came directly from the mouth of Muhammad, you have to believe that the miracle stories in the hadith were invented by Muhammed's followers.

This is HUGE, and I think the main reason we're having a difficult time understanding each other and why our beliefs are highly conflicting on several levels. You view the Bible the way some Muslim scholars view the hadith, while Christians believe it to be the divine word of God passed through man.

One thing I have seen is that Muslims say the Bible was corrupted. Muhammad actually taught that Christians and Jews corrupted the Bible (which was all written before the Quran, by the way).

Regarding the Jews, the Quran says:
"(The children of Israel) changed the words from their (right) places and have abandoned a good part of the Message that was sent to them." -Surah 5:13

Regarding Christians, the Quran says:
"And from those who call themselves Christians... they have abandoned a good part of the Message that was sent to them." Surah 5:14

Muhammad claimed that if the Scriptures had not been corrupted, they would still contain the prophecies regarding his coming. Did Muhammad explain when or how the Scriptures were corrupted or who exactly supposedly did it? No. Did he offer any proof of these changes by presenting an unchanged copy of the Scriptures? No. How convenient.

Archaelogical findings of the past century refute Muhammad's teaching: Age of oldest physical New Testament manuscripts that still exist today, sheer quantity of manuscripts, and most importantly (and stark contrast to what Muhammad said), CONSISTENCY of these manuscripts. There is a ton of evidence that the New Testament in use during the time of Muhammad and the New Testament used today are faithful copies of the original books. Check out The Case For Christ by Lee Strobel.

There is more, and more, and more I would like to discuss with you, but I need to spend some time with my daughter before she goes to bed. Goodnight.
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      08-25-2007, 10:46 AM   #101
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Firstly, you say that the Luke is history with 3 backup accounts. But I the problem is that History is written by men that claim they are speaking the truth about God’s word. One may ask, “Why shouldn’t we trust them?”, however, many people claim to tell the word of God and they can’t all be right…

I’ll try explain why I find the Bible so hard to trust:

It’s obvious that Constantine has to do something to stop the Roman Empire falling apart, Christianity was the solution. The only problem is that it was different from pagan Roman religions. He therefore Romanised Christianity. A few bishops and a significant amount of people believe Jesus to be human, but there were bishops like Anthanasius believed he was God.

The Council of Nicea then made a decision about Jesus. In total, there were 318 bishops present at the event. Sabina, Bishop of Heracha, himself speaking of the Council of Nicea affirms that “except Constantine and Sabinus, Bishop of Pamphilus, these bishops were a set of illiterate, simple creatures, that understood nothing;” The subject of Jesus’ divinity was then put to a vote. After much pressure from Anthanasius, the pro-divinity group won.

Then, a decision had to be made about which Gospels would be used for argumentation. Around 40 Gospels were submitted. Since they were all so different, it was hard to make a decision. They then resorted to divination, or to be specific “Sortes sanctorum.” This is the holy casting of lots for the purposes of divination. Another eyewitness, Pappas, in his book “The Synodicon” says: “Having promiscuously put all the ‘books that were referred to the Council for determination under a Communion table in a church, they (the bishops) besought the Lord that the inspired writings might get up on the table, while the spurious writings remained underneath, and it happened accordingly’. The next morning, the four Gospels: Matthew, Mark, Luke & John were found on the table.

I’m sure you can see why I find it hard to trust that we have to word of God. Then, in 496 AD the Church issued the Galsian decree banning any Gospels that the Church didn’t agree with. Pope Hormisdas reaffirmed this decree. The list of books banned is far too extensive to sit and list. I’ll continue. Some manuscripts survived church bans but were in such bad condition. For example the Gospel of Barnabas which is a small fragment and the rest was burned. Some people try to say that these Gospels etc were written too late and that’s why they weren’t accepted by the Church, but that’s simply not true. There are many that have been written around the same time as the 4 Gospels but are rejected! Thus, the Church basically chose what fitted in with their beliefs. It doesn’t end there though. Even the Gospels we do have have been subjected to revisions because we find earlier manuscripts which expose fabrications. That’s why there are so many versions of the Bible today.

On this matter, early church father Oregin said: "The differences among the manuscripts have become great, either through the negligence of some copyists through the perverse audacity of others; they either neglect to check over what they have transcribed, or, in the process of checking, they make additions or deletions as they please." I might add that these complaints aren’t from the 9th century onwards as some people think, but rather from the 1st and early 2nd century!

Also: "Some believers, as though from a drinking bout, go so far as to appose themselves and alter the original text of the gospel three four or several times over, and they change it's character to enable them to deny difficulties in face of criticisms." – Celsus

"When my fellow Christians invited me to write letters to them I did so. These the devil's apostles have filled with tares, taking away some things and adding others. For them the woe is reserved. Small wonder then if some have dared to tamper even with the word of the Lord himself, when they have conspired to mutilate my own humble efforts." – Dionysius

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noize
I feel as though you are being inconsistent in what you are saying. Like on one hand you're asking me to cough up scientific proof of everything I state, and the other hand you agree that God is infinite. Which is it? Not only can our minds not fully understand the Trinity at this time, but they also cannot process physically how God created Heaven, Earth, man. But we both obviously believe this over something like the Big Bang Theory. Can YOU, hks, scientifically prove that God created the world? No! But you believe in faith, and you behold His creation. We can't see the wind either, but we know it is there, because we can feel it. Since we both believe that God created The heavens the earth and all that is in it, it stands to reason that God was here- Genesis 1, and IS still here (from a Christian's point of view in the form of the Holy Spirit). All this to say, our finite "ground of logic" just can't begin to fully process an Infinite God among us.
I’m sorry if I came across as inconsistent bro. I was only talking about scientific proof when I was talking about the way the Earth was designed. I don’t feel that we need to use science to explain God’s nature or being. All I was saying is that logically, Jesus (AS) cannot be the Son of God for many reasons. This is not science of any kind. This is simple logic that might use mathematics that people of the lowest intelligence can understand. Apart from that, the logic really just refers to the differences between infinite and finite beings.

Although, sometimes I do try to show how the title “Son of God” can be made to fit a lot of people and how the title has been inserted in the Bible later. This prompted changes to be made in versions such as the NIV. Also, I still feel that we cannot just say that we can’t process God’s infinite being. I have explained the various implications of this too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noize
I'm not just talking about physically dying, but separation from God for all eternity. "For God so loved the world that he gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him. Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." -John 3:16-18
As you probably know, John is not one of the synoptic Gospels. I find that by the time we get to John’s Gospel, it is much harder to trust. Infact, in my next post I’ll explain further.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noize
I don't think there was ever an intention for us not to live on earth. But man was warned not to eat from the tree in the middle of garden, or they (Adam and Eve) would die.
I’m glad we can agree on that bro.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noize
There's no inconsistency. Sin demands a sacrifice for forgiveness. Before Christ, it was an animal as a sacrificial offering. After, the blood of Christ.
This is where me and you differ, friend. We Muslims believe that God does not require anything from us for forgiveness whereas you speak of sacrifices. Funnily enough, Jews have explained very well why Jesus wouldn’t be suited for a sacrifice:

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/faq032.html

Also, I still feel there is inconsistency. Many of Jesus' parables taught nothing about sacrifices but instead of a loving God who chooses to forgive those who repent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noize
How do you handle this contradiction of the Quran and hadith? Since the Quran came directly from the mouth of Muhammad, you have to believe that the miracle stories in the hadith were invented by Muhammed's followers.
I’m not so sure there is a contradiction. Here is one of the Holy Prophet (SAW)’s miracles in the Quran:

The miracle of the splitting of the moon was demonstrated before a certain gathering who persisted in denial of Muhammad’s Prophethood. As was related by ‘Adbullah ibn Mas‘ud, while they were in Mina’ one night, the Prophet split the moon into two by a gesture of his index finger. The halves of the moon appeared one behind the mountain and the other in front of it. Then, the Prophet turned to us and said: ‘Be witnesses!’ The Qur’an refers to this miracle in the following verses:

The Hour has approached, and the moon split. But whenever they see a sign, they turn away and say, ‘This is evident magic’.
Quran (54:1-2)


Infact the Quran details miracles of many Prophets (AS). Here is the miracle of Prophet Sulaman (AS). He could communicate with animals and hear them speak:

At length, when they came to a (lowly) valley of ants, one of the ants said: "O ye ants, get into your habitations, lest Solomon and his hosts crush you (under foot) without knowing it."
Quran (27:18)


Also, I'm not sure what could be achieved by the Holy Prophet (SAW) claiming miracles for himself. Firstly, it would mean he is a liar (Astagfirullah for even saying) and the could be lying about the Quran being the word of God. If he was such a liar, then wouldnt he make sure the Quran he authored and the Hadiths recorded the same miracles? Also, what can be achieved by claiming more miracles? he never claimed divinity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noize
Muhammad claimed that if the Scriptures had not been corrupted, they would still contain the prophecies regarding his coming. Did Muhammad explain when or how the Scriptures were corrupted or who exactly supposedly did it? No. Did he offer any proof of these changes by presenting an unchanged copy of the Scriptures? No. How convenient.
Did the Holy Prophet (SAW) need to prove that they were corrupted? I mean, even Christians who are honest enough admit it. I have shown this extensively above. The corruption of the Bible was even admitted during the 1st century. Did the Holy Prophet (SAW) need to produce an unchanged copy? No. He proved beyond doubt with the revelation Allah gave him, the Quran, that he is indeed the last Prophet (SAW) of Allah. Therefore, what he says can be trusted by us.
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      08-25-2007, 10:48 AM   #102
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That took some time my friend, So I might make my next post later tonight...
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      08-25-2007, 12:11 PM   #103
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Quran = Terrorists
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      08-25-2007, 12:16 PM   #104
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Quote:
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Quran = Terrorists
Ignorance = bias + bliss?
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      08-25-2007, 12:26 PM   #105
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Quran = Terrorists
I hope that helps you sleep at night
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      08-25-2007, 12:27 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Ninjaneer View Post
Ignorance = bias + bliss?
I always find his posts quite stupid. He makes random, ignorant statements without contributing to the discussion.

How can you say Quran = terrorists when the Quran is a book?
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      08-25-2007, 12:47 PM   #107
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How can you say Quran = terrorists when the Quran is a book?
it is if it is worth dying for.....but i wouldn't know.
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      08-25-2007, 12:59 PM   #108
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it is if it is worth dying for.....but i wouldn't know.
First of all, the Quran is a book, singular. Terrorists is plural. I think maybe you should try grasp simple features of the English language, then maybe you wouldnt try to equate a singular item to something plural...

Also, if you "wouldnt know" then why try make a stupid ignorant statement?
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      08-25-2007, 02:26 PM   #109
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First of all, the Quran is a book, singular. Terrorists is plural. I think maybe you should try grasp simple features of the English language, then maybe you wouldnt try to equate a singular item to something plural...

Also, if you "wouldnt know" then why try make a stupid ignorant statement?
you're right........ move along.........
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Last edited by NaTuReB0Y; 08-25-2007 at 05:29 PM.
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      08-25-2007, 04:39 PM   #110
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in case you haven't noticed.. no one is being convinced of anything..

the only thing you have proven beyond a doubt is that you are a faithful muslim. and you know what you're talking about when you speak about islam. you have also proven that you don't care about learning about christianity and your current understanding of it is way off. you have proven that you just want to argue instead of dialogue.

thanks, this thread has been informative.
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