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      12-24-2012, 11:25 AM   #23
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One advantage of the air/water system over the air/air that I have not seen mentioned is the ability to use the on board A/C system to chill the coolant so that you can get IAT's below ambient. C02 also gives the same result but needs to be refilled.
Not with any of the current E9x supercharger options.

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Originally Posted by ArthurJGuy View Post
Also I saw someone mention that ESS uses an FMIC, FMIC's are used with air/air and from what I know the ESS kit is not air/air.
Here is a photo of the VF620 (air/water intercooled kit) heat exchanger, also known as an front mounted intercooler.

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      12-24-2012, 11:56 AM   #24
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I will say that, over the years, ESS has proven to be the most conservative company as far as pushing the envelope. With that said, FI and regular track usage will likely shorten the engine's lifespan. Street driving or occasional use? I don't see an issue and haven't heard of any. If street and occasional track use is what it will see then there is no need to read any further.

If you are in a hot climate and plan to regularly track the car, I think you need to address cooling capacity. IMO, should be addressed anyway for high service demand applications. If you are novice or intermediate driver, likely won't have much of an issue. In fact, your car will run cooler and longer because you won't have the engine pinned at the redline because you can't use all of the power. As you get to an more advanced level you WILL be much harder on the engine because now you will drop it down to 2nd in tight corners because you can control the car and attain much higher exit speeds. At some point, you will keep the needle pinned at redline.

IMO...At that point, FI is going to become a total PIA. The stock engine can withstand about 20 minutes of torture. I don't see how increasing the power 25%-33% without more cooling will help that. I can get my STOCK E90 M3 to pull redline after 17 minutes on a fast track with a 3/4 mile straight. If you are constantly running the car 8x per weekend at that level then I don't think your car will last very long. I could be wrong.

Look carefully at what people are driving in the different groups. You'll see the FI'd cars in beginner and intermediate groups. Look at the advanced level...you won't see too many. With the advanced group I drive with, I'm the only idiot with an aftermarket FI kit. Why? Because its less reliable, more expensive, and more of a PIA.

If I was going to keep the car indefinitely I'd go NA. For the reasons that the OP stated...you like the character of the car...why not maintain it?

EDIT: I see some companies running FI'd M3s on the track but that's different. They have the financial and technical resources to fix things. Then my next question...how long are those vendors going to keep that car? As long as you?
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      12-24-2012, 12:19 PM   #25
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Owned 3 M3's one supercharger &140k miles later M hits 10.8 @ 132mph
From car to car the kit started out as a 600hp on an 08 M3 , then went. 625hp on the 2011 M3 , then went 650hp on 2012 M3...

How much more proven do you want it to get
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      12-24-2012, 12:52 PM   #26
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The key letters in FMIC are IC, and a heat exchanger is NOT an intercooler. It's a FMHE if you want to call it something with fancy letters (and that is what ESS refers to it as in this discussion). They work completly opposite of each other. An intercooler passes air over the fins that is cooler than the charge air to cool it off, it is used in air/air systems. A heat exchanger moves the heat from one medium to another (in this case air to coolant at the HE in the manifold, and coolant to the air at the FMHE) and the fins on the HE dissipate the heat. So, unlike an FMIC which cools your charge air, the FMHE only cools the coolant that was heated by a second HE in the manifold. Same goal, two different methods, two different parts.

As for using the A/C or C02 to cool the HE coolant, no there are not kits offered by current e9x supercharger vendors, but there are plenty of universal options in the aftermarket. It's nice to have a 105 day and your engine thinks it's a 65 day, your engine will thank you with both performance and reliability, and who doesn't want those?

Oh, and no I don't have an ESS kit, but there is plenty of documented information on it here, and that combined with a vast amount of knowledge in fluid dynamics and thermal dynamics tell me all that I need to know.

Last edited by ArthurJGuy; 12-25-2012 at 06:56 AM.
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      12-24-2012, 01:39 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m33 View Post
Owned 3 M3's one supercharger &140k miles later M hits 10.8 @ 132mph
From car to car the kit started out as a 600hp on an 08 M3 , then went. 625hp on the 2011 M3 , then went 650hp on 2012 M3...

How much more proven do you want it to get
If you are just talking about drag racing...DEs and road courses are a whole other level of abuse. Its like a 1/4 mile run x 120.
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      12-24-2012, 01:40 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
I will say that, over the years, ESS has proven to be the most conservative company as far as pushing the envelope. With that said, FI and regular track usage will likely shorten the engine's lifespan. Street driving or occasional use? I don't see an issue and haven't heard of any. If street and occasional track use is what it will see then there is no need to read any further.

If you are in a hot climate and plan to regularly track the car, I think you need to address cooling capacity. IMO, should be addressed anyway for high service demand applications. If you are novice or intermediate driver, likely won't have much of an issue. In fact, your car will run cooler and longer because you won't have the engine pinned at the redline because you can't use all of the power. As you get to an more advanced level you WILL be much harder on the engine because now you will drop it down to 2nd in tight corners because you can control the car and attain much higher exit speeds. At some point, you will keep the needle pinned at redline.

IMO...At that point, FI is going to become a total PIA. The stock engine can withstand about 20 minutes of torture. I don't see how increasing the power 25%-33% without more cooling will help that. I can get my STOCK E90 M3 to pull redline after 17 minutes on a fast track with a 3/4 mile straight. If you are constantly running the car 8x per weekend at that level then I don't think your car will last very long. I could be wrong.

Look carefully at what people are driving in the different groups. You'll see the FI'd cars in beginner and intermediate groups. Look at the advanced level...you won't see too many. With the advanced group I drive with, I'm the only idiot with an aftermarket FI kit. Why? Because its less reliable, more expensive, and more of a PIA.

If I was going to keep the car indefinitely I'd go NA. For the reasons that the OP stated...you like the character of the car...why not maintain it?

EDIT: I see some companies running FI'd M3s on the track but that's different. They have the financial and technical resources to fix things. Then my next question...how long are those vendors going to keep that car? As long as you?
Good points.
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      12-24-2012, 02:34 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjae1976
Quote:
Originally Posted by m33 View Post
Owned 3 M3's one supercharger &140k miles later M hits 10.8 @ 132mph
From car to car the kit started out as a 600hp on an 08 M3 , then went. 625hp on the 2011 M3 , then went 650hp on 2012 M3...

How much more proven do you want it to get
If you are just talking about drag racing...DEs and road courses are a whole other level of abuse. Its like a 1/4 mile run x 120.
Generally speaking
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      12-24-2012, 03:28 PM   #30
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I hate to say this but if you want more reliable big power, why not wait for a new f30 m3 with the tuning potential to blow your mind. It will have the engine designed from day 1 for boost and the drive train to deal with higher torque.

If you are concerned with reliability I thinking adding 30-40 percent more power onto a drivetrain not designed for FI is inherently more risky than taking the new m3 designed for FI, which typically include stronger parts everywhere to deal with the low end torque of FI cars which we do not have with the e90
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      12-24-2012, 03:33 PM   #31
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I would personally look into an e63 m6 (2010). They're fast, high revving n/a v10 sounds amazing. Its got a lot more "feel" to it then the new m6.
Just a word of advice, a modified car will never be as reliable as a stock one, you also loose your warranty, so take that into consideration.
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      12-25-2012, 03:47 PM   #32
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To the OP,
I have a 2008 M3. It's a 6 speed with ~65k on the odo. Stock clutch and flywheel. This will be two 2 years with Active's Level 2 kit running Meth. Car is still running strong.

Some of my recommendations if you go the supercharger route:

-Don't spend money on larger wheels like I did. I had ADV5.1 20"...they looked great, but were very heavy. Over a year ago, I switched over to TE 37 SL's 18" and I love them. Couldn't be happier. It was a noticeable difference. Plus they fit my Stop Tech Trophy BBK. You don't really need brakes if all you intend to do is drive on the street, HOWEVER it's a nice upgrade because the car will hit significant speeds before you know it once it's boosted.

-If you go suspension, I've been pretty happy with the KW V3's plus they provided a nice drop between the tire and wheel well. The Club Sports in my opinion were too hard for a daily drive.
-Since you have a 6 speed, you should put a short shift kit on there if you don't have one. I have Active's and the throws are significantly shorter, however there is still a slight rubbery feel to it but a vast improvement over stock.

-A must have if you go FI, would be a full exhaust with high flow cats. I'm running a full Active exhaust with high flow cats and the car sounds like an exotic to me.

- I have STRI gauges: water temp, boost, & oil pressure. Nice to have, but not necessary.

-Engine Ice Coolant...I live in South Florida so it gets pretty hot here in the summer. Not really a significant change versus stock, however I do notice that my water temp doesn't warm up as fast. Again not really necessary.

-Be prepared to swap out your rear tires more often. The tires I used to run were the Re-11's...really handled well in the dry and the rain. Would of stayed with them, but Bridgestone had a 6 month back order on them so I switched over to the Michelin Pilot SS. I have close to 9k miles on the tires and will say the tire tread wear seems to be holding well. Compared to the RE-11's they seem to be just as sticky on the road. I'm very happy with them.

My last bit of advice is if you plan on keeping the car for a long time; plan on doing an engine re-build. That's what I am currently pondering. In my opinion it doesn't matter what brand of supercharger you use...the bottom line is the M3 wasn't made to be boosted. Sooner or later things break. I'm leaning more and more on the side of keeping the car for a very long time. There's no other platform I can think of that is as good as the M3 for a daily driver. Well maybe a GT-R, but it doesn't come in a stick. Throw in all the go fast parts like suspension, brakes, wheels, tires, etc, and a supercharger... you'll have an unsurpassed platform that not many can touch.

As others have mentioned, if you go the FI route, whatever manufacture you go with, make sure they have great support because undeniably there will always be a time when something is off. Hope this helps in your decision.
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      12-26-2012, 02:01 PM   #33
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We have a bunch of 2008's with our SC systems that are still running strong. It seems hit or miss with them.
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      12-26-2012, 05:09 PM   #34
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How about SC s65 reliability based on One Lap Of America results? Were they what you expected?


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Originally Posted by Andrew@ActiveAutowerke View Post
We have a bunch of 2008's with our SC systems that are still running strong. It seems hit or miss with them.
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      12-26-2012, 05:11 PM   #35
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No more explanation needed. Thanks




Quote:
Originally Posted by ArthurJGuy View Post
The key letters in FMIC are IC, and a heat exchanger is NOT an intercooler. It's a FMHE if you want to call it something with fancy letters (and that is what ESS refers to it as in this discussion). They work completly opposite of each other. An intercooler passes air over the fins that is cooler than the charge air to cool it off, it is used in air/air systems. A heat exchanger moves the heat from one medium to another (in this case air to coolant at the HE in the manifold, and coolant to the air at the FMHE) and the fins on the HE dissipate the heat. So, unlike an FMIC which cools your charge air, the FMHE only cools the coolant that was heated by a second HE in the manifold. Same goal, two different methods, two different parts.

As for using the A/C or C02 to cool the HE coolant, no there are not kits offered by current e9x supercharger vendors, but there are plenty of universal options in the aftermarket. It's nice to have a 105 day and your engine thinks it's a 65 day, your engine will thank you with both performance and reliability, and who doesn't want those?

Oh, and no I don't have an ESS kit, but there is plenty of documented information on it here, and that combined with a vast amount of knowledge in fluid dynamics and thermal dynamics tell me all that I need to know.
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      12-26-2012, 05:29 PM   #36
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Quote:
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How about SC s65 reliability based on One Lap Of America results? Were they what you expected?
Just as we expected 1st place. Two years in a row without a single issue! http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=691358

Last edited by Andrew@ActiveAutowerke; 12-26-2012 at 05:37 PM.
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      12-26-2012, 05:32 PM   #37
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Happy Holidays Andrew!


Quote:
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Just as we expected 1st place 2 years in a row http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=691358
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      12-26-2012, 11:41 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArthurJGuy View Post
One advantage of the air/water system over the air/air that I have not seen mentioned is the ability to use the on board A/C system to chill the coolant so that you can get IAT's below ambient. C02 also gives the same result but needs to be refilled.

Also I saw someone mention that ESS uses an FMIC, FMIC's are used with air/air and from what I know the ESS kit is not air/air.

As for the bearing issues, I have been trying to find out more but I suspect that an oil with a high ZZDP pack like Valvoline VR1 would make the bearings a hell of a lot happier.
Funny....... You have no idea about the ESS system and you went on Wikipedia and basically copied what it said about the Valvoline VR1. This is a technical section of the forum, please don't give advice if you don't have the knowledge to back it up!
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      12-27-2012, 02:57 AM   #39
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Funny....... You have no idea about the ESS system and you went on Wikipedia and basically copied what it said about the Valvoline VR1. This is a technical section of the forum, please don't give advice if you don't have the knowledge to back it up!
It is funny, because even ESS themselves refered to it as an FMHE.

As for my knowledge, I have been modding cars for the past 15 or so years and that includes everything from specing my own head/cam setups to tuning and everything in between. No wikipedia needed. We have setup cars that run on the ragged edge for two hours straight in the desert heat, so we've learned a thing or two about lubrication and cooling.
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      12-27-2012, 01:39 PM   #40
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Quote:
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Our front mount heat exchanger and the rest of the charge cooling system are seperate from the stock cooling components. Stock cooling components are not replaced or modified.
Thanks for clarifying Roman. Now debating pros an cons between VT1-550 and VT2-585. I'll PM you for any other questions.
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      12-27-2012, 03:30 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benzy89 View Post

Here is a photo of the VF620 (air/water intercooled kit) heat exchanger, also known as an front mounted intercooler.


For further insight, no matter how the intake charge is cooled a key aspect to the reliability and performance is the efficiency of the cooling = eventual heat soak not evident until after a few pulls back to back. If the water in the water cooling system is not circulated properly, stagnant, or uncooled water will continue to flow and therefore not provide efficient cooling. This is why we designed our water hoses with a certain diameter with insulation, with proper high quality fittings, factory grade heat exchangers aka radiators (pictured above), and a Bosch water pump to ensure proper circulation.

You can do all the pulls and hard driving you want on the street, but the heat build up and abuse the s65 motor takes through 1 mile on the track at speed has no comparison unless you drive full throttle 100% of the time on the street


E-Rod's VF620 M3 making good use of those Brembo's at SoWs.


EAS VF620- places 3rd at Super Lap Battle (first year), fastest lap at Mfest, featured in Eurotuner GP


Ricky's@The R's Tuning VF650 taking a break after shaving 2 seconds at Auto Club Speedway (same setup, same tires, just VF650 added)


VAC's VF620 tearing it up on one of their 100's of track days


VAC's track beast s65 dry sump with VF supercharger (my fav)




Based on highly efficient cooling and proper tuning, the s65 has held up pretty well to F/I even on the track
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      12-27-2012, 04:22 PM   #42
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Much good info circulating.
I think a couple of guys were using meth on the track (not 1/4mile) with Intercooled kits with some success. Can anyone chime in
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      12-27-2012, 04:47 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VF-Engineering View Post
For further insight, no matter how the intake charge is cooled a key aspect to the reliability and performance is the efficiency of the cooling = eventual heat soak not evident until after a few pulls back to back. If the water in the water cooling system is not circulated properly, stagnant, or uncooled water will continue to flow and therefore not provide efficient cooling. This is why we designed our water hoses with a certain diameter with insulation, with proper high quality fittings, factory grade heat exchangers aka radiators (pictured above), and a Bosch water pump to ensure proper circulation.

You can do all the pulls and hard driving you want on the street, but the heat build up and abuse the s65 motor takes through 1 mile on the track at speed has no comparison unless you drive full throttle 100% of the time on the street


E-Rod's VF620 M3 making good use of those Brembo's at SoWs.


EAS VF620- places 3rd at Super Lap Battle (first year), fastest lap at Mfest, featured in Eurotuner GP


Ricky's@The R's Tuning VF650 taking a break after shaving 2 seconds at Auto Club Speedway (same setup, same tires, just VF650 added)


VAC's VF620 tearing it up on one of their 100's of track days


VAC's track beast s65 dry sump with VF supercharger (my fav)




Based on highly efficient cooling and proper tuning, the s65 has held up pretty well to F/I even on the track
Did VAC add a supercharger to there 4.4 motor? What kind of kit did they use and how much boost?
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      12-27-2012, 05:03 PM   #44
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Did VAC add a supercharger to there 4.4 motor? What kind of kit did they use and how much boost?
YEPP, you can see it's the VF Engineering kit in the pics. Don't think they've released any #s on it yet tho
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