BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > BIMMERPOST Universal Forums > General BMW News and Cars Discussion
 
GT Haus
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      12-18-2012, 08:38 PM   #23
Cuz5150
Major
Cuz5150's Avatar
21
Rep
1,271
Posts

 
Drives: 06-M3ZHP/04-M3 Vert/02Duc998
Join Date: May 2008
Location: NJ

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by r3dbimmer89 View Post
+1...At least when Merc lost site of their heritage back in the late 90s they tried to resurrect some of that Merc quality in their current line-up. I doubt it if BMW will ever return to their roots of being the ultimate driving machines.

BTW
Correct......I have heard from several people from Indy Techs, to older Merc techs and Merc owners from the 70's to now. The shocking part is they all said that Merc stopped making proper cars in 1994. That's when they went "fully automated" not sure what exactly that means........but regardless. I've always wanted an C class AMG or E AMG, but the fact that they come with "slushboxes'/chicktronics....etc. Huge turn off
__________________
-Diplomacy is saying, "nice doggie while trying to find a rock"-

04-M3 vert-Black/Imolla/6MT/Cold/Xenon/HK/
06-M3 Cp-Mystic/Black/6MT/Comp/Xenon/HK/
09-135i- AW/Bk-Lette/6MT/M-pac/Nav/Hi-Fi/Usb-Ipod/SOLD
Appreciate 0
      12-18-2012, 10:11 PM   #24
FogCityM3
Lieutenant Colonel
FogCityM3's Avatar
35
Rep
1,728
Posts

 
Drives: M3 (E90)
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: San Francisco

iTrader: (0)

The thing about being on top is.....you have nowhere to go but down.
Appreciate 0
      12-18-2012, 10:13 PM   #25
car_fan
Captain
car_fan's Avatar
35
Rep
830
Posts

 
Drives: 2012 F12 650cic / 2012 E92 M3
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: SoFla

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 宝马.e90 View Post
Interesting. But what does this really mean to us? I mean sure, those numbers are attractive on financial statements but that's about it. It definitely doesn't mean that BMW is necessarily building better cars.

The way I see it is Mercedes' only focus is to be build the best luxury cars, period - and they probably do. I don't think you'll find many who will argue or disagree. They're lack of expansion, while may hurt them with investors, is probably doing a better job in keeping with their business.

As for BMW, you can't argue that they're not market/industry leaders. With that valuation, it's definitely great, but at what cost? We've all read the articles here and you would be blind to see what BMW is doing to move forward but with all this expansion, has it hurt or affected BMW and what their original core business - which is to build sport-orientated cars (Not going to answer that, don't want to start that argument again)?

Alienate the core, assimilate the masses....if in fact Mercedes was the bogey looks like BMW has hit it..

VAG is not sleeping however - we'll see how this all evolves
__________________
2012 650cic Space Gray/Vermillon Red/Blk.Top(retired)
2011 MINI CooperS BRGII/Lounge Green/Sport/Prem/Connect/Black Xenon/Black Conical Spokes/ACS springs/ACS exhaust/Alta Shorty/Continental Extreme DW
2012 M3 AW/FR NDH2/2MK/ZPP/ZCP/ZCW/752/6NR/OEM CF splitters/OEM CF Mirror caps
2012 X3 35i Titanium Silver/Black ZAP/ZPP/TECH/APPS/Breyton GTS/Continental Extreme DW
Appreciate 0
      12-18-2012, 10:45 PM   #26
Nyc20ae
New Member
0
Rep
7
Posts

 
Drives: 1998 540i Sport 6spd
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Queens NY

iTrader: (0)

I never drove a Merc that I really liked... Can't explain it, but the cars don't appeal to me in any way.
Appreciate 0
      12-18-2012, 10:53 PM   #27
TheBingoBalls
Lieutenant Colonel
Canada
19
Rep
1,815
Posts

 
Drives: E90 325i, R56 MINI Cooper
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Toronto, Ontario

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by car_fan View Post
Alienate the core, assimilate the masses....if in fact Mercedes was the bogey looks like BMW has hit it..

VAG is not sleeping however - we'll see how this all evolves
Definitely. Audi has improved so much in so little time. I was in that camp saying Audi would never be on par with BMW as a drivers cars. I'm eating crow now.
Appreciate 0
      12-18-2012, 11:07 PM   #28
clar
Major
clar's Avatar
Singapore
26
Rep
1,033
Posts

 
Drives: M5
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Singapore

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 宝马.e90 View Post
Definitely. Audi has improved so much in so little time. I was in that camp saying Audi would never be on par with BMW as a drivers cars. I'm eating crow now.
They have improved, but still not on par.
__________________

- Frozen Grey F10 M5 DCT
- Rosso Corsa 458 Speciale
- Frozen Grey E92 M3 Sold
Appreciate 0
      12-19-2012, 12:48 AM   #29
smashhell
Lieutenant
United_States
9
Rep
489
Posts

 
Drives: 2011 535i
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mhabs
The thing about being on top is.....you have nowhere to go but down.
Except that in a business, you can become a industry standard and constantly improve upon it.
There is no such thing as limit in technology.
__________________
2011 535i Alpine White, Oyster on black interior, Premium 1 & 2 Package, Magnaflow Full Cat-Back Exhaust, JB4 Stage 2
Appreciate 0
      12-19-2012, 01:15 AM   #30
py0413
Major
py0413's Avatar
Canada
19
Rep
1,178
Posts

 
Drives: 2012 M5
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: BC

iTrader: (2)

not sure what's the point for regular consumers to care about this, anybody here owns a load of bmw or mb stock? If so, this is indeed important to you.
__________________
Must stop eating..............
Appreciate 0
      12-19-2012, 04:21 AM   #31
Desert_Fox
Drop-Top Turbo
Desert_Fox's Avatar
United_States
16
Rep
471
Posts

 
Drives: 2013 335is E93
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: San Diego, CA

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Send a message via MSN to Desert_Fox Send a message via Skype™ to Desert_Fox
AMG's are the only noteworthy cars Mercedes makes, and several of them are absurdly expensive. I wouldn't mind a C63 AMG coupe, it can hold its ground against an M3. 335i takes a shit on a C350 though
__________________
Current 2013 BMW 335is E93 [Mineral White] [Coral Red] DCT, Premium Pkg, Convenience Pkg, Nav, Heated Seats, HK, BMW Apps
Current 2003 BMW 540i E39 [Sterling Gray] [Montana Grey] 6MT, Premium Pkg, M-Sport Pkg
Appreciate 0
      12-19-2012, 08:28 AM   #32
Whostheboss
Captain
Whostheboss's Avatar
40
Rep
787
Posts

 
Drives: a 9incher
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Connecticut U.S.

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 宝马.e90 View Post
Wow...

You're clearly in the camp where more profits the better because you can't see that people will look at this valuation over Mercedes like BMW is making perfect cars.

We all know the how, what we're discussing is what did it do to the brand overall. If you think everything is rosy over in Munich and right now BMW is/can't do no wrong because how much they're valued at, then nothing is going to change your mind. You can talk about all this innovation they've done to become valued at this and that, great but guess what, that came at price on how their cars perform, period.

Again you keep going on about Mercedes like they're the bastard brand. Who cares if they're the German Lexus? Did they try to pretend that they were something else? Mercedes has always stuck to their business model - manufacture the best luxury cars. It's funny that you hope that BMW doesn't become Mercedes but you completely miss the direction BMW is going in. Not only have their cars become soft (an attempt to cater to those looking at Mercedes) but they're in fact becoming the German Toyota with all these models trying to cater to every market/demographic.
+1
__________________
WHO'S THE BOSS
Appreciate 0
      12-19-2012, 09:45 AM   #33
AcidMal
Private
1
Rep
78
Posts

 
Drives: 2012 E92 335i
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Houston

iTrader: (0)

I think y'all are right in two things but I would like to add that both are double sided arguments.

On one hand MB does not build cars like they did in the past, but then again neither is anyone in automotive industry.

Also while I agree MB is for upper age groups, I will not want to drive a "sporty" BMW if I was higher than 40-50 so it goes both ways. That is, if BMW is still a sporty brand by the time that happens!

Only other thing I'd like to add is that while BMW might be innovative, don't forget who the pioneer and patent holder is...

MB is still highly respectable brand, even if BMW has changed to appeal to a much wider audience now.

And just for arguments sake I would take an AMG over an M any day of the year!!!
Appreciate 0
      12-19-2012, 10:42 AM   #34
aceking4u
Private First Class
1
Rep
111
Posts

 
Drives: Honda & Audi
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Los Angeles

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Desert_Fox View Post
AMG's are the only noteworthy cars Mercedes makes, and several of them are absurdly expensive. I wouldn't mind a C63 AMG coupe, it can hold its ground against an M3. 335i takes a shit on a C350 though
I own a C350 Coupe...It is "fast," but feels slow for a 300 HP car.

Also, it's my first RWD car. The car's slip warning comes on when I'm trying to go on a left turn at a stop.

When I was done with my Audi S5 Manual, I was considering the 335i Coupe (2012) but I couldn't stand BMW interior. With the F30/F32 models out now, thats a diff story of course.

I thought I would give Mercedes a shot because I felt like it was the better choice at the time and it was a new model vs owning the end of the 3 series couple cycle. I "like" my car, but I don't love it. The interior of a car is really important to me. I drive often and I appreciate a refined interior on my trips to vegas every 2 months.

However, I'm slowly getting more annoyed of my automatic transmission. I really wish they made a manual for the C350. Like the article says, the car is catered more towards an older crowd.

Lease is up in 12 months. Looking to either get a 435i or S5 Manual.
Appreciate 0
      12-19-2012, 12:07 PM   #35
r3dbimmer89
The Coolest
r3dbimmer89's Avatar
United_States
9
Rep
825
Posts

 
Drives: F80 M3
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: SoCal

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Never Convicted View Post
Argument? Who are you arguing with? How did BMW's business come to be valued at twice MB's? What schedule should they have used up to now? Markets constantly change. And because 9 guys on a message board don't like that they changed a Coupe designation from 3 to 4 is not a valid reason for them to stop what they've been doing and refining to become so valuable. They'll make some, they'll miss some. But I just hope they won't become Mercedes, which is the German Lexus, which is the Japanese Caddy.
I'm not complaining about the 3er coupe being a 4er coupe etc...it's all about core values and its mission statement. Every company base their direction in R&D on their mission statement and BMW clearly is not abiding by the "ultimate driving machine" moniker. That's all I'm complaining about. BMW is becoming the new German "premium" GM...too big to fail...too complacent to do wrong. We all see where GM ended up...competition is stiff so now we have Cadillacs building more fun cars than BMW.

It's good that they're profitable and appealing to the masses but if a company gets too complacent then those profits will take a dive sooner or later. BMW is resting on its laurels and the majority of people in the US and China, it's biggest two markets, buy them just because it's a BMW but if word gets out that another manufacturer builds more exciting cars then let's see how the market looks then.
__________________
Past:12 E92 335i/ 08 E90 335i/02 E46 325i
Present:15 F80 ///M3
Appreciate 0
      12-19-2012, 01:29 PM   #36
Meeni
Gateropode
Meeni's Avatar
24
Rep
1,869
Posts

 
Drives: BMW 330i 06
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: TN

iTrader: (0)

The German Toyota is called VW, and it even has a Lexus in the form of Audi.

Now should we rejoice about such news. Probably not, it means the market expect that BMW is going to be able to juice its customers more than Daimler, and therefore be more profitable. I'd rather have MB in better shape, so that good competition keeps price at bay and we can all enjoy better cars for less money.
Appreciate 0
      12-19-2012, 03:52 PM   #37
Never Convicted
Captain
United_States
10
Rep
684
Posts

 
Drives: 2010 M3 E92
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Charlotte NC

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by r3dbimmer89 View Post
I'm not complaining about the 3er coupe being a 4er coupe etc...it's all about core values and its mission statement. Every company base their direction in R&D on their mission statement and BMW clearly is not abiding by the "ultimate driving machine" moniker. That's all I'm complaining about. BMW is becoming the new German "premium" GM...too big to fail...too complacent to do wrong. We all see where GM ended up...competition is stiff so now we have Cadillacs building more fun cars than BMW.

It's good that they're profitable and appealing to the masses but if a company gets too complacent then those profits will take a dive sooner or later. BMW is resting on its laurels and the majority of people in the US and China, it's biggest two markets, buy them just because it's a BMW but if word gets out that another manufacturer builds more exciting cars then let's see how the market looks then.
That's a false premise to begin with. You see a review by a magazine into which GM pours advertising money that says the ATS is a better car than a 3, and you say it like it's Gospel. BMW is profitable because they continually innovate and incorporate technology, which has ALWAYS been their mission. So now they expand their model line into niches, and you say they're alienating their core? Why is that? Do you have to own one of every model they have? Truth be told, BMW sells performance at a discount to the super high line brands, and much better than price competitors. They're profitable BECAUSE they do this. If an ATS is better than a 335i, you prove out. If you think a 5GT is fugly, I concur. Horses for courses. Resting on their laurels? That's a joke.
Appreciate 0
      12-19-2012, 06:07 PM   #38
SCOTT26
Brigadier General
SCOTT26's Avatar
311
Rep
3,236
Posts

 
Drives: Frozen Dark Silver 30 Jahre
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: WORLDWIDE

iTrader: (0)

When I was recently in Los Angeles for the i3 Coupe I took the opportunity to take a drive in the ATS and whilst it was interesting it still was not a 3er , it actually felt like a more sportier version of our (German market GM) Opel Insignia , I have not followed whether the two are based on each other story so I cannot tell you if they are twins or not?

It was interesting but it did not stand out the way a BMW does.

BMW is not a German GM, or Toyota that is VW , BMW is run very much differently from either.

This generation of BMW models is far more profitable than before due the commonality of matrix sharing between each model which allows more models to be spun-off cost effectively whilst making a significant return. This was implemented well before the economic crisis hit as was EfficientDynamics and many other fuel efficient features, well before competitors had to take notice.

BMW is a company that focuses on the priorities of the industry and each challenge must be met. Constant change is active at BMW and we like to embrace it. By the time the customer is made aware of that challenge you will find BMW are at the advent of implementing a solution.

VW are not pleased about BMW's collaboration with Toyota as some have mentioned that with VW fighting to take the no1 spot from Toyota. BMW has hindered that in order to prolong the inevitable from happening anytime soon.
__________________
Electrified
Appreciate 0
      12-19-2012, 07:45 PM   #39
EINSER M
Major General
EINSER M's Avatar
United_States
92
Rep
5,368
Posts

 
Drives: 2011 E82 1M
Join Date: May 2006
Location: 34.1064 N, 117.5922 W, 300m altitude

iTrader: (38)

Garage List
Send a message via AIM to EINSER M Send a message via MSN to EINSER M Send a message via Yahoo to EINSER M
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shane550X View Post
Me too!
me three
__________________
THE EINSER M BUILD
CLICK HERE: EINSER M BUILD

Appreciate 0
      12-19-2012, 08:30 PM   #40
r3dbimmer89
The Coolest
r3dbimmer89's Avatar
United_States
9
Rep
825
Posts

 
Drives: F80 M3
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: SoCal

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Never Convicted View Post
That's a false premise to begin with. You see a review by a magazine into which GM pours advertising money that says the ATS is a better car than a 3, and you say it like it's Gospel. BMW is profitable because they continually innovate and incorporate technology, which has ALWAYS been their mission. So now they expand their model line into niches, and you say they're alienating their core? Why is that? Do you have to own one of every model they have? Truth be told, BMW sells performance at a discount to the super high line brands, and much better than price competitors. They're profitable BECAUSE they do this. If an ATS is better than a 335i, you prove out. If you think a 5GT is fugly, I concur. Horses for courses. Resting on their laurels? That's a joke.
Buddy you're definitely drinking the kool-aid...for starters credit is given when due and yes I HAVE DRIVEN an F30 in every form from a base 328i to a Sport Line 335i and yes I have DRIVEN both the turbo 4 banger ATS and the V6 ATS. I never said it was a better car. I simply said it was more fun to drive and it truly is. That's my biggest point... I didn't buy a BMW because of the cool tech and blah blah blah. I bought BMWs because of how FUN they were.

BTW nothing is sold at a discount from BMW. What planet are you on...the Japanese do bang for the buck performance per dollar much better than the Germans.
__________________
Past:12 E92 335i/ 08 E90 335i/02 E46 325i
Present:15 F80 ///M3
Appreciate 0
      12-19-2012, 08:33 PM   #41
r3dbimmer89
The Coolest
r3dbimmer89's Avatar
United_States
9
Rep
825
Posts

 
Drives: F80 M3
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: SoCal

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
When I was recently in Los Angeles for the i3 Coupe I took the opportunity to take a drive in the ATS and whilst it was interesting it still was not a 3er , it actually felt like a more sportier version of our (German market GM) Opel Insignia , I have not followed whether the two are based on each other story so I cannot tell you if they are twins or not?

It was interesting but it did not stand out the way a BMW does.

BMW is not a German GM, or Toyota that is VW , BMW is run very much differently from either.

This generation of BMW models is far more profitable than before due the commonality of matrix sharing between each model which allows more models to be spun-off cost effectively whilst making a significant return. This was implemented well before the economic crisis hit as was EfficientDynamics and many other fuel efficient features, well before competitors had to take notice.

BMW is a company that focuses on the priorities of the industry and each challenge must be met. Constant change is active at BMW and we like to embrace it. By the time the customer is made aware of that challenge you will find BMW are at the advent of implementing a solution.

VW are not pleased about BMW's collaboration with Toyota as some have mentioned that with VW fighting to take the no1 spot from Toyota. BMW has hindered that in order to prolong the inevitable from happening anytime soon.
The ATS is on an all new RWD platform (Alpha) that was developed to benchmark the E46 chassis. The Insignia is based on the FWD Epsilon II platform. No relation
__________________
Past:12 E92 335i/ 08 E90 335i/02 E46 325i
Present:15 F80 ///M3
Appreciate 0
      12-20-2012, 08:10 AM   #42
Never Convicted
Captain
United_States
10
Rep
684
Posts

 
Drives: 2010 M3 E92
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Charlotte NC

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by r3dbimmer89 View Post
The ATS is on an all new RWD platform (Alpha) that was developed to benchmark the E46 chassis. The Insignia is based on the FWD Epsilon II platform. No relation
Then...may I suggest...you buy an ATS. But thank you for driving BMW.
Appreciate 0
      12-20-2012, 07:44 PM   #43
FogCityM3
Lieutenant Colonel
FogCityM3's Avatar
35
Rep
1,728
Posts

 
Drives: M3 (E90)
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: San Francisco

iTrader: (0)

Actually in the history of capitalism all "#1" businesses eventually relinquish their lead. Even more accelerated in technology businesses.


Quote:
Originally Posted by smashhell View Post
Except that in a business, you can become a industry standard and constantly improve upon it.
There is no such thing as limit in technology.
Appreciate 0
      12-20-2012, 07:56 PM   #44
FogCityM3
Lieutenant Colonel
FogCityM3's Avatar
35
Rep
1,728
Posts

 
Drives: M3 (E90)
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: San Francisco

iTrader: (0)

More niches in body styles, actually fewer niches in engine (the core of performance), which is troubling.

People are mistaking profitability (margin) vs actual profit dollars. Porsche is actually a more profitable company (margins) vs. BMW, but a much smaller size and they are providing niches in both body styles and engines (e.g. having one of the last normally aspirated ones in performance cars) while winning every category they're in comparison tests. From the enthusiast perspective, it's not achieving profitability as the sole determinant of winning, but how you achieve that profitability.

And as far as advertising, so all the comparos that BMW used to win were actually because they spent more ad dollars, and now beginning in 2012, they aren't spending, so they're not winning anymore?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Never Convicted View Post
That's a false premise to begin with. You see a review by a magazine into which GM pours advertising money that says the ATS is a better car than a 3, and you say it like it's Gospel. BMW is profitable because they continually innovate and incorporate technology, which has ALWAYS been their mission. So now they expand their model line into niches, and you say they're alienating their core? Why is that? Do you have to own one of every model they have? Truth be told, BMW sells performance at a discount to the super high line brands, and much better than price competitors. They're profitable BECAUSE they do this. If an ATS is better than a 335i, you prove out. If you think a 5GT is fugly, I concur. Horses for courses. Resting on their laurels? That's a joke.
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:42 PM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST