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      08-23-2007, 10:38 AM   #1
UncleWede
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God's Warriors

I'm interested in discussing, RESPECTFULLY, with those who have seen it, the CNN special. Seeing it is not a requirement though.

I saw about 45 minutes of the Jewish slant on Tuesday, caught about 90 minutes last night (with a doze in the middle) and look forward to seeing how the Christians screw up as well.

Throughout, I keep hearing the dicotomy of that phrase: God's Warriors. Does God really need mortal warriors to battle other mortals?

The Jewish segment seemed to be primarily a battle over land, specifically Jerusalem. But I think they would take almost anywhere that they could be free and not persecuted for their beleifs, not at all an uncommon desire. I fail to perceive (and maybe that is part of the plan) a quest for world domination or spreading of the religion. They consider themselves God's Chosen, there is no need to force themselves on the Gentiles.

On the Muslim front, I am beginning to understand some of the hatred of the west. I can't say as I condone it or anything, but begin to understand. There is the perception that the west is invading. Not necessarily always in a military way, but the ideas and customs of the west are infringing on the Muslim way of life in many areas 9cell phones, women uncovered and with makeup, no breaks to pray 5x/day in the workplace.

One theme that seems to be a fundamental difference is the desire for martyrdom that seems to be prevalent in many of the youth.

The other event that seems to belong to the violence-prone portion fo the community is the following not of Allah, but of men who claim to be faithful to Allah. OBL and his crew seem to be highly influenced by the writings/preaching of Qutb. There was also a large group devoted to the idea of the Hidden Imam. Is this another prophet I know nothing about? Or is he just another martyr that is held up as a rallying point for violence, sort of an eye for an eye? If I understood correctly, his family was tortured not by Christians, but Muslims.

I have to say I initially had HUGE respect for the Jihadist who were fighting peacefully, like the young woman who chose fight her battle within western society by adopting and clinging to her religious faith, despite the hardships of doing such in the modern free-trade environment of the west. Then as I watched I became somewhat disappointed. She says, apparently contrary to what my brothers have told me here, that Allah WANTS her to cover her body. And at the last, her comments about "Why would *I* want that, why would *I* want men other than my husband to look at me" she seems to have just missed the mark that it's about what GOD wants, not what she wants.


Anyway, join me if you wish, and lets see how bad teh Christians screw up tonight
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      08-23-2007, 12:42 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
There was also a large group devoted to the idea of the Hidden Imam. Is this another prophet I know nothing about? Or is he just another martyr that is held up as a rallying point for violence, sort of an eye for an eye? If I understood correctly, his family was tortured not by Christians, but Muslims.

I have to say I initially had HUGE respect for the Jihadist who were fighting peacefully, like the young woman who chose fight her battle within western society by adopting and clinging to her religious faith, despite the hardships of doing such in the modern free-trade environment of the west. Then as I watched I became somewhat disappointed. She says, apparently contrary to what my brothers have told me here, that Allah WANTS her to cover her body. And at the last, her comments about "Why would *I* want that, why would *I* want men other than my husband to look at me" she seems to have just missed the mark that it's about what GOD wants, not what she wants.
Haven't watched the show. However the "hidden imam" is not a belief held by the Sunni Muslims (the largest majority of Muslims). It is a Shi'ite belief (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden_Imam). He is referred to as Imam Al-Mahdi (Muhammad Al-Mahdi) but this is not to be confused with the mahdi which Sunnis believe in. For the most part the discussions on this board are by Sunni members. Shi'ite beliefs can be far away from what has been discussed on this forum.

As for the female, I didn't see the segment but from what you've mentioned I don't see anything contradictory about her statements. First off her actions are actually for God, first and foremost, since it's an order from God (backed up in the QUr'an). Next comes the idea that she doesn't need to cover for her husband and shouldn't expose herself to others freely and attract people's attention.
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      08-23-2007, 01:17 PM   #3
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Yeah Ninjaneer pretty much explained about the Imam. Please dont confused Imam Mehdi in the Sunni view with the Shia view. Shia's have somewhat deviated from Islam. They give their 12 imams God-like qualities of not being able to make mistakes, having knowledge of all things etc. This cannot be disputed since even their leader said it in writing!

Anyway, I dont see a problem with what the woman said. I'll explain bro. Allah wants us to be modest. He wants women to guard their beauty and men to lower their gaze. This creates a peaceful society without rape etc.

Now, on a personal level, she is asking rhetorically, "Why would I want anyone else apart from my husband to see me?" Can you see her modesty at a personal level? All muslim women are encouraged to be like this. Wives should only want their husbands seeing their beauty. It is the purest thing for them.
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      08-23-2007, 01:30 PM   #4
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Yeah Ninjaneer pretty much explained about the Imam. Please dont confused Imam Mehdi in the Sunni view with the Shia view. Shia's have somewhat deviated from Islam. They give their 12 imams God-like qualities of not being able to make mistakes, having knowledge of all things etc. This cannot be disputed since even their leader said it in writing!

Anyway, I dont see a problem with what the woman said. I'll explain bro. Allah wants us to be modest. He wants women to guard their beauty and men to lower their gaze. This creates a peaceful society without rape etc.

Now, on a personal level, she is asking rhetorically, "Why would I want anyone else apart from my husband to see me?" Can you see her modesty at a personal level? All muslim women are encouraged to be like this. Wives should only want their husbands seeing their beauty. It is the purest thing for them.
I think thats pretty sick, i dont think any woman should cover what she looks like from everyone else on earth except the man she is married to. I also dont think they want it to be that way, they are made to accept that way of life thru fear of death and humility... I think that the people of Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia hate their way of life and would change to a democratic country if they had the choice... Instead they dont, they are run by tyrants like Saddam Hussein and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad... I feel sorry for them.
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      08-23-2007, 01:34 PM   #5
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I think thats pretty sick, i dont think any woman should cover what she looks like from everyone else on earth except the man she is married to. I also dont think they want it to be that way, they are made to accept that way of life thru fear of death and humility... I think that the people of Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia hate their way of life and would change to a democratic country if they had the choice... Instead they dont, they are run by tyrants like Saddam Hussein and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad... I feel sorry for them.
Well firstly, fair enough you dont believe in it. However, we cant assume "they dont want it like that". She openly said she did.

Regarding the politics, there is no proper Islamic country. Let me repeat, there is no perfect Islamic state on the whole of the Earth. Therefore, we cant just make a loose connection between Muslim women and tyrants like Saddam Hussein. I mean it would be just like making a tie between Christians being bad because Mr. Bush decides to launch an illegal war...
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      08-23-2007, 01:39 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
On the Muslim front, I am beginning to understand some of the hatred of the west. I can't say as I condone it or anything, but begin to understand. There is the perception that the west is invading. Not necessarily always in a military way, but the ideas and customs of the west are infringing on the Muslim way of life in many areas 9cell phones, women uncovered and with makeup, no breaks to pray 5x/day in the workplace.
Actually, there has been that style of life going on in the time of the prophet, the Meccans had no morals, and they used to do all kinds of bad stuff.. But the prophet knew that he could not force a religion upon people.. He tried to let it grow in their hearts.


There are some politicians who are invading Muslim countries and lands for wealth, and that causes many problems. But as a Muslim living in the west, the things that people do are their business.. I have plenty of rights, I can go to the mosque, I have religious freedom at work, I can take breaks on Friday to go to Friday prayer. I love it.


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Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
The other event that seems to belong to the violence-prone portion fo the community is the following not of Allah, but of men who claim to be faithful to Allah. OBL and his crew seem to be highly influenced by the writings/preaching of Qutb. There was also a large group devoted to the idea of the Hidden Imam. Is this another prophet I know nothing about? Or is he just another martyr that is held up as a rallying point for violence, sort of an eye for an eye? If I understood correctly, his family was tortured not by Christians, but Muslims.
Qutb is a character.. He comes here on an academic scholorship.. and then becuase he dosnt like the way people live.. he goes back and starts writing about how they should be destroyed.. This is not Islamic... Back during the time of the prophet.. the mulsims had to take refuge in Abussinia, a Christian land, and they were grateful.. not violent about it. Thats why these "home grown terrorists" get on my nerves the most.. their families come to other countries in search of refuge.. and then these kids grow up with all the comforts and start all this mess.. its very bad IMO.

Shias hold the nephews of the prophet in very high regard.. In my view they are on the border line of crossing out of Islam by stepping over Allah and his messenger and holding others in higher regard. Hence the beating they do as a "guilt" tradition.


Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
I have to say I initially had HUGE respect for the Jihadist who were fighting peacefully, like the young woman who chose fight her battle within western society by adopting and clinging to her religious faith, despite the hardships of doing such in the modern free-trade environment of the west. Then as I watched I became somewhat disappointed. She says, apparently contrary to what my brothers have told me here, that Allah WANTS her to cover her body. And at the last, her comments about "Why would *I* want that, why would *I* want men other than my husband to look at me" she seems to have just missed the mark that it's about what GOD wants, not what she wants.
The reason she says "Why would I" is becuase she agrees with why she covers.. God told her not too.. and she sees that he is right.. saying why would she even want to disobey and subject herself for that. I can 100% guarantee thats what she meant. For me for example.. God told me not to gamble.. but I also understand that its a bad thing that can cause me to go into debt.. thats why God dosn't want me to do it.. and why would I want to do it anyway since its bad for me.
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      08-23-2007, 01:43 PM   #7
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I think that the people of Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia hate their way of life and would change to a democratic country if they had the choice... Instead they dont, they are run by tyrants like Saddam Hussein and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad... I feel sorry for them.
First of all Saddam Hussein is dead.. so go get current with your news.

How can you claim you know how happy or unhappy ALL the people in 5 countries are. You think everyone is happy go lucky here in America? go talk to someone that dosnt have health care and see what they tell you.
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      08-23-2007, 02:40 PM   #8
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So are most of the "radical" or "terrorist" Islamist of the Shia tradition? Is that the distinction that needs to be made to the rest of the world in terms of understanding that Muslims are basically peaceful?

Sharia law is desired by only Shi'ites, or Sunni as well? Christiane was visually and verbally taken aback when speaking to a member of "The Brotherhood" and he mentioned that women should be doing "appropriate" womanly things in the world

In another section, she went very far in getting into the "appropriate" headwear and dress to meet an imam. But this guy would not look in her direction, would not shake her hand, even turned away from her in the chair. A) Why did he agreee to speak to a woman? B) Is there an appropriate way to meet/greet/acknowledge the pressence of a humble/modest woman? Or must there be two women present to make a whole person?
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      08-23-2007, 02:59 PM   #9
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So are most of the "radical" or "terrorist" Islamist of the Shia tradition? Is that the distinction that needs to be made to the rest of the world in terms of understanding that Muslims are basically peaceful?

Sharia law is desired by only Shi'ites, or Sunni as well? Christiane was visually and verbally taken aback when speaking to a member of "The Brotherhood" and he mentioned that women should be doing "appropriate" womanly things in the world

In another section, she went very far in getting into the "appropriate" headwear and dress to meet an imam. But this guy would not look in her direction, would not shake her hand, even turned away from her in the chair. A) Why did he agreee to speak to a woman? B) Is there an appropriate way to meet/greet/acknowledge the pressence of a humble/modest woman? Or must there be two women present to make a whole person?
Actually, terrorists who try to do evil acts in the name of Islam arent from any particular background. It can be from either Sunni or Shia. They are usually brainwashed into thinking they are going to heaven

Regarding Shari'ah, it is for all muslims.

I'm not sure if muslim women go directly to Imams but in any case, the Imam was just being modest in his conduct. It wasnt to do with the women being less worthy in any way. He was just lowering his gaze and being modest. Similarly, she was being modest in her dress. That's all it means.

Oh, your second question about suitable way to greet. Well, Muslim men are not encouraged to shake hands with any women. It's not just about refraining from it if the women is modest. As you know, a lot can be conveyed in a hand shake, and it is best to remain modest in our outwardly actions.
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      08-23-2007, 03:10 PM   #10
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I have watched the first 2. Look forward to tonight's show!!

What I see so far makes me even more anti organised religion.
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      08-23-2007, 04:09 PM   #11
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So are most of the "radical" or "terrorist" Islamist of the Shia tradition? Is that the distinction that needs to be made to the rest of the world in terms of understanding that Muslims are basically peaceful?
Shias desire martydom a lot more becuase they see that Imam Hussien (nephew of the Prophet) was a martyr.. and this is not good. The only person you should try to emulate is the Prophet himself.

Radicalism is different becuase your talking about a movement that is occurring, where muslims who are dissatisfied with the state of affairs in their homelands are turning towards the West and placing blame. They consider the West the "far enemy" and their own governments the "near enemy". The problem is that they dont understand that they still have a place to peacefully practice their religion and thats what is important. They want to change the world.. force Islam on everyone.. and thats not the way it works. The Prophet PBUH was a diplomat before he was a soldier. The program also highlighted that there are many groups who have turned to peaceful and diplomatic means change the state of affairs in their homelands. They renounce the violence they once supported.. its a start.
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      08-23-2007, 05:09 PM   #12
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Yes, many did refute their previous groups as brainwashing, etc. yet remained true to their basic Muslim faith. Many just seemed confused, and their time with these fringe groups further muddied the water for them. Not at all a unique Muslim experience.
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      08-23-2007, 05:16 PM   #13
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This is the CNN link for people who have missed the first 2 parts. Part 3 is tonight at 2100 Easten.

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2007/god...ors/index.html
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      08-24-2007, 10:48 AM   #14
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Seems Christians have their fair share of passionate whackos. Magee seemed to be just hedging his bets on the Rapture/Armegeddon in actively supporting Isreal.

I wasn't really old enough to understand when Jimmy Carter was in office, but I really like him as a concerned citizen. I was not aware of all the inside political rumblings in the Baptist church. Kinda scary that you must sign that you agree with EVERYTHING the preacher says.

The huge difference, at least in this show, was how the Christian "leaders" were trying to change the nation, return it to what they feel are the roots of the country, but they were doing it within the framework of the Constitution.
Also, I didn't see any interviewing of Christians outside the US. With the Muslim warriors, we went all over the middle east, and then back into the US.

Despite my Catholic upbringing, I have to say I disagree with those who clung so tightly to keeping the 10 Commandments in that public building, because it was pretty clearly against separation of church and state. The fine line on the currency re: "In God we trust" was touched on one of our other threads recently, i.e. the offense will be taken by aetheists but the majority of people in the US do beleive in a god, and the rule of the land is democracy, i.e. the majority rules.
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      08-26-2007, 07:27 AM   #15
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I saw about 5 minutes of this show, then turned it off.
Religion is the problem with this world.
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