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      12-15-2012, 05:05 PM   #23
MiddleAgedAl
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So if you did decided to throw the 2nd Amendment out the window and ban guns...these mentally unstable people would just resort to using other "types" of weapons....anyone remember Timothy McVey?
Would they? Is it really that inevitable? Is there an Australian equivalent, for example ? Why do the crazies down under not commit these mass murders? Is it something in the water ? In all seriousness, this is something we need to look at, IMHO, rather than just adopting some defeatist attitude, give up, and just say, well, I guess our kids will continue to be in danger, because I am a good gun owner so I dont want to give up my right to carry.

I wonder if everyone in Sydney walks down the street in terror everyday, because they cant pack a gun, so they cant shoot back if someone shoots at them?

Or, maybe they are content, not because they are exercising their right to carry a gun to defend themselves, but because they know they dont need that right to make it home in 1 piece.
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      12-15-2012, 05:07 PM   #24
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Provide firearm safety screenings and mental health evaluations to prevent this. This incident really angers me, I like weapons, I would love to own a weapon but my wife says no. She's Japanese and even watching security forces on Travis AFB carry their M4s scare her because it's not a daily norm for her since Japan doesn't worship firearms like we do here in the States. People committing these crimes aren't criminals from the get go until they have a meltdown like we saw in Aurora this summer and now this event.

I like this argument that some have saying that it's necessary to defend against a tyrannical government, but what good would your peashooter do against a Reaper or an AC-130 flying miles up in the sky shooting down on you should such an event come to pass? What gets me the most is that the President went on TV to give a tearful statement about the event, what we should want from our President is to pass some legislation because after all, 5000+ kids die yearly in the US from gun violence and people have the nerve to call that freedom.

Just venting here because I have two small children I might just send them back to Japan if the situation across the country is completely fucked by the time they enter grade school. The time to talk is now and not later like Fox News and other media outlets prefer to do. The "War On Christmas" is not important, the war for the future safety of our children's future is.
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      12-15-2012, 05:16 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by MiddleAgedAl View Post
Would they? Is it really that inevitable? Is there an Australian equivalent, for example ? Why do the crazies down under not commit these mass murders? Is it something in the water ? In all seriousness, this is something we need to look at, IMHO, rather than just adopting some defeatist attitude, give up, and just say, well, I guess our kids will continue to be in danger, because I am a good gun owner so I dont want to give up my right to carry.

I wonder if everyone in Sydney walks down the street in terror everyday, because they cant pack a gun, so they cant shoot back if someone shoots at them?

Or, maybe they are content, not because they are exercising their right to carry a gun to defend themselves, but because they know they dont need that right to make it home in 1 piece.
I mean without getting into a total anthropolgical discussion..the simple of it is..we are a violent society with a violenty history. From day one we've taken by force and used violence to bring order. The fact that we are a multi-ethnic nation probably doesnt help either.

I certainly dont have an answer as to why certain countries dont exhibit the same behavior that we do. But I do know its not going to be solved by banning guns. The violent tendenices are still there deeply rooted in who we are
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      12-15-2012, 06:42 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Eagle1oh7 View Post
Provide firearm safety screenings and mental health evaluations to prevent this. This incident really angers me, I like weapons, I would love to own a weapon but my wife says no. She's Japanese and even watching security forces on Travis AFB carry their M4s scare her because it's not a daily norm for her since Japan doesn't worship firearms like we do here in the States. People committing these crimes aren't criminals from the get go until they have a meltdown like we saw in Aurora this summer and now this event.

I like this argument that some have saying that it's necessary to defend against a tyrannical government, but what good would your peashooter do against a Reaper or an AC-130 flying miles up in the sky shooting down on you should such an event come to pass? What gets me the most is that the President went on TV to give a tearful statement about the event, what we should want from our President is to pass some legislation because after all, 5000+ kids die yearly in the US from gun violence and people have the nerve to call that freedom.

Just venting here because I have two small children I might just send them back to Japan if the situation across the country is completely fucked by the time they enter grade school. The time to talk is now and not later like Fox News and other media outlets prefer to do. The "War On Christmas" is not important, the war for the future safety of our children's future is.
I agree. I also believe a hugely important factor in all of this is our national obsession with guns and violence. We need to acknowledge the dominance of gun culture in our society and stop glorifying guns and violence. As a society we are obsessed and intrigued by killing, murder and mahem, often involving guns in a way no other western societies are. These themes are featured prominently in the media we consume. I'm not advocating censorship of any kind. I think there are other ways to address this problem to make it less attractive especially to youth.

As others have rightly pointed out mental health is an important aspect to all of this. Statistics show not all, but many of these mass murder shooters are young males with some form of mental illness. We need to get serious about identifying these individuals and intervening before they become a threat to others as well as themselves.

Easy access is another big problem. It's too easy in most states for anyone to get their hands on fire arms without proper screening. In most states it's easier for a young person to own assault weapons than it is for that same individual to obtain a drivers license. Getting access to guns is rediculously easy in most states in this country. That has to stop.
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      12-15-2012, 09:02 PM   #27
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There are too many issues to address when it comes to these mass shootings. First of all you have to throw political correctness out of the window. It sucks when something like this happens, it sucks for the families involved especially, but every responsible gun owner always feels a separate remorse because they know this is just one step closer to stricter gun control. Every single one of these shooters is a prime example of an irresponsible gun owner and they ruin it for everyone else.
I can feel like I'm going to be long winded on this so I'm going to break this into different topics and I will state right now that even though I love to play devil's advocate with myself I am bias towards gun owners. I love shooting for recreation and thats about it. I do not personally own any firearms, but I'm in the military, Marines, I am a marksmanship instructor, and carry daily in my current assignment. (oh and expect profanity)

The US and getting rid of guns.
The US is too far gone to try and take guns away from people. Too many people are too comfortable with their gun ownership to even consider turning them over. If you even bring it up, most people will become enraged and you'll likely get a statement along the lines of "you can pry it from my cold dead hands." The U.S. is too large and people are too proud to try any big change like this. Americans are proud of the way they do things, even if it is the most illogical, ridiculous, offensive thing. Look at our system of measurement for example. Distance makes no fucking sense. An inch is devided by 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16 and so on, then an foot is 12in, yard is 3ft, mile is 5280ft or 1760yd. NO LOGIC! Metric, everything is 10's, it's simple and logical. Try to tell the average American that we will start phasing everything into the metric system. Could you imagine telling Americans that football (name is another illogical American thing) fields will be metric?! There would be riots! The way we measure temperature is the same way! Thirty-two degrees is freezing but 212 degrees is boiling. I had to look it up because I forgot. Celsius, 0º freezing 100º boiling. Simple, makes sense. Did you know every 10 meters is 1 atmosphere of pressure underwater. This all makes perfect sense, but Americans are too proud of their ways and too stubborn to change them regardless of how illogical they are. Trying to take guns away from Americans would be like trying to change America to the metric system. It probably would be for the best, but it will most likely never happen.

Purchasing guns in the US
Some states like Texas boast about how easy it is to buy firearms. This IS a problem. As I said, I love guns, I love shooting, but not everyone should be able to buy firearms, and even those who should shouldn't have it easy. Thorough background checks can prevent the mentally unstable and criminals from buying firearms if the proper information is put into the systems. Also sometimes making it a difficult process prevents people from buying them all together. When I lived in Hawaii the process for buying a handgun was insane! You had to go back and fourth from the gun shop to the one and only police station to transfer information, get permits and such. It was so much of a pain that often people just wouldn't buy. Buying a rifle was a little easier, but still a difficult task. Every state should have at least a one week waiting period to buy any firearm. This gives enough time for a proper background check to be performed plus it creates the "cool down" time for someone who is buying a firearm with bad intentions. If you don't know, the idea is that if I want to kill my ex girlfriend, if I have to wait a week to pick up the gun I just bought I will most likely not have that motivation after a week or just not buy the gun. So America needs stricter gun purchasing laws, especially screening for mental instability.

Firearms and the mentally ill
This tends to be the common factor with the mass shootings. First off if someone has a mental illness they should not be permitted to buy firearms. I am not a psychologist so I do not know of every mental illness so please dont tell me that simplex whatever the fuck isn't that bad and blah blah blah, you should know what I mean by my previous statement. Also it wouldn't be too bad of an idea to say that anyone with a child that has a mental illness should not be permitted to have a firearm in the house. Yes, the parents or whoever could have the firearm locked up in a safe that the mentally ill person/child doesn't have access too, but apparently that isn't always stopping them. So someone will inevitably say "Arg! You can take away the 2nd Amendment freedoms of someone just because their child has a mental illness of some sort!" and yes that is true, but it COULD possibly be a very big step in preventing these situations. It would suck and almost feel like a punishment for someone who enjoys recreational shooting if they had a kid that had autism or aspergers and they had to get rid of their firearms. Often times it isn't the parents' fault that the kid came out that way, the mother didn't drink or smoke while pregnant, it just happened. Sadly though it does seem that the majority of the people doing this shootings are not right in the head and preventing them from access to firearms is necessary.

Mass shootings" and political correctness/media
This is where I am about to piss off some people. Speaking completely statistically and throwing out compassion and opinion, mass shootings are not that bad when compared to the numbers of how people die. Yes it is tragic, but in reality it is not that bad. More people die from incidents with vehicles than bullets. More people safely and responsibly own, carry and operate firearms than those who use them to kill other people. While it may seem like these are frequent and a lot of people are dying from mass shootings, more people are dying from the use of alcohol. I am not saying I do not care about the victims and that their families do have my sympathy, but there are worse things out there. At the same time however, I do not know anyone involved in any of these tragedies, and I cannot stop my life and be sympathetic for every person who meets an untimely and violent end. My Uncle died earlier this year, but unless if you knew about it you probably wouldn't care that just some other guy died. Its sad, but true.

Part of the problem is all the media coverage. The media in this country in particular is out of control. I'm not a subscriber to the idea that they control us and sway every way we live our lives, but to an extent they kind of do. They make these mass shooting incidents out to be like everyone in the country is in danger. It's what sells. Turn on fox news at 11 and the first 5-10 minutes is hardly ever anything good. It is usually about people being murdered because that is what sells on the news. I read an article about gun control a few months ago that talked about the psychology behind this. He called it “logical fallacy of misleading vividness”. It explained how the media makes these events seem like it is so bad that it will inevitably happen to you tomorrow. He states that it is portrayed in such detail and makes it so easy to imagine it happening to you that it effects your life. Much like how people are afraid to fly even though flying is statistically the safest way to travel. I will post a link to this article at the bottom and will reference it for other things as well. There is also the quote from Morgan Freeman going around (haven't seen a credible source yet) about how all the media coverage is about the shooter and that all it is doing is making the next potential shooter want to be worse than the last. You always hear about the bad, and rarely the good.

Same goes for celebrity news too. What is the ratio you hear for any given celebrity doing something good to ANYTHING they do looked at in a bad light. Then stop and think, why the fuck should I care what -insert celebrity- had for breakfast, looks like without makeup, wore to the beach. This is another problem in America, we encourage this constant invasion of privacy by the media and paparazzi into the lives of celebrities but flip the fuck out when facebook changes a policy that you didn't actually read in detail.

People are constantly dying in the world, and a lot of them are violent tragic deaths. When was the last time you heard about service members dying in Afghanistan? While I was over there in one day we had more than 10 Marines fall victim to an attack, a few died, a lot are now missing limbs. I know the story was not on the national news because sadly the average American just doesn't care anymore. Its the same story only the names have changed, and unless you know the person, a victim story with only different names isn't something people care about. When was the last time you heard on the national news all of the good we are doing in Afghanistan? You probably aren't. You only heard the stories about the ONE soldier who lost it and slaughters a bunch of Afghans, or the one group of stupid Marines who urinated on a dead Taliban fighter. You dont hear about how we saved children's lives when they stepped on an IED that the Taliban planted. You dont hear the story about how Naria, a little Afghan girl who lost an eye, was flown to from one of the worst places in Afghanistan to San Diego so that a team of surgeons, who volunteered, could give her a prosthetic eye. I picked these stories because I was there for them, but there are other AMAZING things people are doing in the world that you never hear of.

Did the national news cover much about Nasa finding water ice on Mercury or what Curiosity found on Mars? Why are these stories not getting attention?

Gun Control and Bans
When it comes to firearm bans, usually anyone who knows anything about firearms realized they are a joke. In the article i mentioned before and have a link to below, the author goes into detail about how the politicians writing these things have NO CLUE what they are talking about. A lot of things they ban are basically things that LOOK scary, but dont make a weapon more lethal. The national assault weapon ban was lifted, but California still has theirs in effect. Even the name "assault weapon" makes the firearm sound more dangerous and scary to the uneducated and the unfamiliar with firearms. Things like pistol grips, barrel shrouds, collapsable butt stocks, and suppressors are all things that LOOK scary, but dont actually have much effect on the lethality of the firearm. In the article there is even a video of an interview with a politician where she clearly doesn't know what she put a ban on. I'm afraid how much this might effect other things they decide on. I probably would not be far off in saying that the majority of people who are anti-guns have never fired one before.

Shooting is fun! Like I said before, I enjoy recreational shooting and thats pretty much it. When I am able to, I would like to purchase many firearms to keep in my house. My interest with with having guns for protection is significantly less than the interest is having something that would be fun to go to the range with and pop off some rounds. A topic I got into with a friend on assault weapons was also regarding competitions. Three-gun competitions are becoming more and more popular and look like a lot of fun, but you can't do it in certain states because of the restrictive gun laws against assault weapons. Look it up on youtube, they look like a blast! ...Pun intended, gotta lighten this up a little if you have read this far.

When looking at the effects of the national assault weapon ban, it pretty much didn't do anything. Such a small percentage of gun related violence involves assault weapons to begin with. Its not like the movies where criminals are getting crates and crates of AKs and M16s. Most crimes with firearms involve pistols as they are easily concealed. Even then I have never seen anything restricting bolt action rifles other than .50BMG rounds. In the hands of anyone who spent time reading military manuals on the internet a run of the mill, common, .308 caliber rifle at long range could do more damage than anyone with a pistol, physically and psychologically to the public.

This took awhile to type and is about all I can think of for now. If you actually read all of it I am amazed. If you want to debate any parts of it I just ask that you keep it civilized. I did not intend to offend anyone by what I have said, but emotion and tone do not convey through text and it is easy to misinterpret.

Link to article on gun control (written by a leftist too)
http://kontradictions.wordpress.com/...-ill-tell-you/
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      12-15-2012, 09:12 PM   #28
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Great write up, Nate
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      12-15-2012, 09:41 PM   #29
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Thanks Nate for the post.
Never let a good crisis go to waste. The poor victims aren't even buried and the media and politicians are calling for more gun control. Instead of taking a logical, reasoned approach to trying to find out what went wrong and trying to fix it, the knee-jerk reaction is to blame the gun.
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      12-15-2012, 09:43 PM   #30
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Easy access is another big problem. It's too easy in most states for anyone to get their hands on fire arms without proper screening. In most states it's easier for a young person to own assault weapons than it is for that same individual to obtain a drivers license. Getting access to guns is rediculously easy in most states in this country. That has to stop.
This isn't quite true. I'm not sure about all states and cities, etc.. but most of the ones i know of this is not the case.

I can get a drive's license in a matter of hours with minimal cash. If i want to buy an "assault weapon" (which is a stupid fucking term that fear mongers came up with; really, what weapon isn't made for assaulting?!?!) i would have to come up with at least $850, pass a FDLE back ground check, and then wait 3 days to pick up the weapon. Now if i'm a convicted criminal i can still obtain a DL but will not legally get my hands on a firearm.
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      12-15-2012, 11:49 PM   #31
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This isn't quite true. I'm not sure about all states and cities, etc.. but most of the ones i know of this is not the case.

I can get a drive's license in a matter of hours with minimal cash. If i want to buy an "assault weapon" (which is a stupid fucking term that fear mongers came up with; really, what weapon isn't made for assaulting?!?!) i would have to come up with at least $850, pass a FDLE back ground check, and then wait 3 days to pick up the weapon. Now if i'm a convicted criminal i can still obtain a DL but will not legally get my hands on a firearm.
A pistol is more for defense and range shooting than something like an M4 which is called an assault rifle for a reason.
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      12-16-2012, 12:48 AM   #32
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A pistol is more for defense and range shooting than something like an M4 which is called an assault rifle for a reason.
Assault rifle is a different term from what what i said, which is "assault weapon". But don't kid yourself, pistols are for assaulting just as much as any other weapon. The only difference is effective range.
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      12-16-2012, 02:25 AM   #33
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Assault rifle is a different term from what what i said, which is "assault weapon". But don't kid yourself, pistols are for assaulting just as much as any other weapon. The only difference is effective range.
Assault rifles fit in the assault weapon category so not much of a difference, only in words. Yes you can hold a person up with a weapon and assault them, but you most likely carry a concealed handgun for personal defense not for offense.
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      12-16-2012, 12:20 PM   #34
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"Assault" is just a word appended to weapons by the anti-gun lobby. It has no particular or specific meaning other than to engender or play to fears. There are automatic (one trigger pull empties magazine), semi-automatic (one pull, one shot), and single-shot weapons--that's basically it. Automatics that exist legally are the subject of licensing, extensive controls and personal possession is extremely rare. And as to the "scary" weapons, there is effectively no functional difference between a pink-stocked kids beginner .22 and an AR-15--it's one pull, one shot.

I'm starting to think that an assault weapon is apparently anything with a black plastic stock or is aggressive looking.
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      12-16-2012, 01:40 PM   #35
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Let's not veer off the topic at hand. Obviously some have a problem with the term "assault weapons". Fair enough. Maybe a automatic weapons is a better term or perhaps the terminology should be debated in another thread altogether.

We have a problem in this country with mass murder shootings. That's a fact.

Nobody's talking about taking anybody's guns away or restricting 2nd ammendment rights. This is about addressing the serious problem in our country with mass murder shootings. Consider these facts cited in a Mother Jones article entitled "A Guide to Mass Shootings in America"

Since 1982, there have been at least 62 mass murders carried out with firearms across the country. This does not include crimes primarily related to armed robbery or gang activity.

Of the 142 guns possessed by the killers, more than three quarters were obtained legally. Over 70 percent of the guns used were semi automatic handguns.

Half of the cases involved school or workplace shootings; the other 31 cases took place in locations including shopping malls, restaurants, government buildings, and military bases. 44 of the killers were white males. Only one of them was a woman. The average age of the killers was 35, though the youngest among them was 11 years old.

Whether you own a gun or not. What can we do to address this problem?
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      12-16-2012, 05:58 PM   #36
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I understand the tragic nature of what happened in CT, however nothing is being done in Chicago. Every ban imposed in the City affects Law abiding gun owners, not gang-bangers.

See...http://www.npr.org/2011/03/21/132678...violence...and the number is higher in 2012.

States:
In Chicago, nearly 700 children were hit by gunfire last year — an average of almost two a day — and 66 of them died. That number is up over the previous year, even though the overall number of homicides in Chicago fell last year to a 45-year low.

Obama will try to throw the 2nd Amendment out, but needs one or two more picks in the Supreme Court. So, until then he will try and use the UN handgun treaty which we are close to signing.

The root of the problem is not the guns but who has access to these guns. How do we keep weapons away from the mentally impaired? BTW...when was the last time Obama visited Chicago to discuss the gang and shooting of children problem?
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      12-16-2012, 07:50 PM   #37
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So, the calls for action continue. What, exactly, would we do differently?

-Mental evaluation prior to purchase. Of course that amounts to licensing to own a weapon, something that is probably not acceptable to strict adherents to the 2d Amendment. Also, sanity is a tenuous thing and certainly not permanent. And of course it will take about two cosmic minutes for everyone to know what the "right" answers are. I guess you could also require yearly "check-ups" but that won't go over well and, can we depend on a government bureaucracy to reliably detect legitimate mental illness? And what kind of mental illness disqualifies one--ADHD, psychosis, sex addicts, alchoholics....? Gets kinda deep kinda fast.

-Required training prior to ownership. Of course that may make people feel good but has no capacity to catch the whack jobs. And of course criminals simply won't do it. Already required in many states for concealed carry.

-Restriction on the number and/or type of weapons that can be owned. Of course that already exists in some respects when it comes to automatic weapons, short barreled rifles/shotguns. May seem reasonable but in reality, more laws only control law abiding people and, again no impact on the deranged. And of course, if any of my weapons end up on the banned list, well, they will probably be "lost" in a boating accident prior to confiscation.

-Declaring insane use of a firearm to be illegal (Bwahahahahaha!). Sorry, lost it for a minute.

-Mandatory and severe penalties for use of a firearm in commission of a crime. Good for criminals, no impact on the insane.

-Mandatory penalties for anyone who fails to secure their weapons sufficiently to preclude use in a crime (or deranged mass murder). Now this one I might be able to go for. It could deter access out of fear of punishment. Doesn't keep an adult from buying his own but could help keep under-aged from gaining access. Would certainly buoy up the gun lock business. Of course it could be extended to gunshop owners who miss the signs of mental illness, don't administer the sanity check or "should have" been suspicious.

-And of course, the totally outlandish notion that many gun control folks would jump at. Total confiscation of all firearms. Impossible to execute, all that will do is get a lot of "confiscators" killed.

Soooo...best I can do for now. And remember, any "law" or regulation or sanction will have no impact on the mentally ill and only inconvenience the sane and law abiding. What else...?
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      12-16-2012, 10:03 PM   #38
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I don't know.... If someone really wants to do something and has set their mind to it, they'll find a way to do it.

I"m not saying that nothing can be done or that i'm close minded to logical solutions but to think we can create a utopian society is a fallacy. We can't protect everyone from every possible situation. I just don't think it can be done.

I just learned of this incident in 1927 which killed 38 school children...

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The Bath School disaster is the name given to three bombings in Bath Township, Michigan, on May 18, 1927, which killed 38 elementary school children, two teachers, and four other adults; at least 58 people were injured. The perpetrator died of suicide in one of the explosions as well. Most of the victims were children in the second to sixth grades (7–14 years of age[1]) attending the Bath Consolidated School. Their deaths constitute the deadliest mass murder in a school in U.S. history.

The bomber was the school board treasurer Andrew Kehoe, 55, who had opposed construction of the consolidated school in the early 1920s as it required increased property taxes. His wife was ill with tuberculosis and he was financially stressed, as he had stopped making mortgage payments and was under pressure for foreclosure. Over a year's period, he carried out steps in a plan to destroy the school by explosives.
Some time between May 16 and the morning of May 18, Kehoe murdered his wife by beating her to death. On the morning of May 18 about 8:45, Kehoe exploded incendiary devices in his farm buildings and house, setting them on fire.

Almost simultaneously, an explosion devastated the north wing of the school building, killing many schoolchildren. Kehoe had used a timed detonator to ignite dynamite and hundreds of pounds of pyrotol, which he had secretly planted inside the school over the course of many months. As rescuers gathered at the school, Kehoe drove up, stopped, and used his Winchester rifle to detonate dynamite inside his shrapnel-filled truck, killing himself, the school superintendent, and several others, as well as injuring more bystanders. During rescue efforts at the school, searchers discovered an additional 500 pounds (230 kg) of unexploded dynamite and pyrotol planted throughout the basement of the south wing. Kehoe had apparently intended to blow up and destroy the whole school. Investigators later said that if he had sold unused farm equipment and material at his farm, he could have gained enough money to pay his mortgage.
Seems that crazy is nothing new in this country.
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      12-17-2012, 07:34 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by MP0WER View Post
I don't know.... If someone really wants to do something and has set their mind to it, they'll find a way to do it.

I"m not saying that nothing can be done or that i'm close minded to logical solutions but to think we can create a utopian society is a fallacy. We can't protect everyone from every possible situation. I just don't think it can be done.

I just learned of this incident in 1927 which killed 38 school children...



Seems that crazy is nothing new in this country.
Yes, you are right. we cannot and will not EVER create a utopian society. You are also correct that we can't protect everyone from every possible situation. No matter what solutions we come up with there will surely still be killings and mass murder shootings. But that shouldn't stop us from acting. The perfect should never be the enemy of the good. We may never make it perfect. But we can always make it better.

Let's try to figure out how to make it better. What are your suggestions?
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      12-17-2012, 09:06 AM   #40
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Here is a very interesting read from the Associated press, putting together a few facts:

ASSOCIATED PRESS STORY: BELIEVE IT OR NOT MASS KILLINGS ARE NOT ON THE RISE, THEY ARE ON THE DECLINE
Posted on December 17, 2012 at 8:13am by Guest Post Print »Email »
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Story highlights:

• ​While the perception in the wake of this year’s mass shootings has been that such acts are on the rise, the Associated Press found that it’s actually the exact opposite when you look at the data on a macro level.

• “There is no pattern, there is no increase,” says criminologist James Allen Fox of Boston’s Northeastern University.

• He adds that the random mass shootings that get the most media attention are the rarest.

• While mass shootings rose between the 1960s and the 1990s, they actually dropped in the 2000s. And mass killings actually reached their peak in 1929, Grant Duwe, a criminologist with the Minnesota Department of Corrections who has written a history of mass murders in America, says.

• Chances of being killed in a mass shooting, he says, are probably no greater than being struck by lightning.



This is a piece by the Associated Press and Helen O’Neill.


FILE – In this Aug. 7, 2012 file photo, people cover their heads at a candle light vigil in Oak Creek, Wis., for the victims of a mass shooting at the Sikh Temple of Wisconsin this summer. Credit: AP
(AP) — A gold plaque hangs next to a bullet hole in the Sikh temple in Oak Creek, Wis., where a lone gunman killed six worshippers and injured three others last August. It is engraved with the words, “We Are One.”

“It frames the wound,” says Pardeep Kaleka, son of former temple president Satwant Singh Kaleka, who died in the massacre. “The wound of our community, the wound of our family, the wound of our society.”

In the past week, that wound has been ripped open with shocking ferocity.

In what has become sickeningly familiar, gunmen opened fire on innocents in what should be the safest of places – first, at a shopping mall in Oregon, and then, unthinkably, at an elementary school in Connecticut.

Once again there were scenes of chaos as rescuers and media descended on the scene. Once again there were pictures of weeping survivors clutching one another, of candlelight vigils and teddy bears left as loving memorials. And once again a chorus of pundits debated gun control and violence as society attempted to make sense of the senseless.


A photo provided by the Oakland POlice Department shows weapons taken off the streets in a buy-back program in Oakland and San Francisco, Calif., Saturday, Dec. 15, 2012. Credit: AP
“Are there any sanctuaries left?” Kaleka asked. “Is this a fact of life, one we have become content to live with? Can we no longer feel safe going Christmas shopping in a mall, or to temple, or to the movies? What kind of society have we become?”

As this year of the gun lurches to a close, leaving a bloody wake, we are left to wonder along with Kaleka: What is the meaning of all this?

Even before Portland and Newtown, we saw a former student kill seven people at Oikos University in Oakland, Calif. We saw gunmen in Seattle and Minneapolis each kill five people and then themselves. We saw the midnight premiere of “The Dark Knight Rises” at a theater in Aurora, Colo., devolve into a bloodbath, as 12 people died and 58 were wounded; 24-year-old James Holmes was arrested outside.

And yet those who study mass shootings say they are not becoming more common.

“There is no pattern, there is no increase,” says criminologist James Allen Fox of Boston’s Northeastern University, who has been studying the subject since the 1980s, spurred by a rash of mass shootings in post offices.

The random mass shootings that get the most media attention are the rarest, Fox says. Most people who die of bullet wounds knew the identity of their killer.


FOXBORO, MA – DECEMBER 16: A New England Patriots fan shows support for the 26 victims of the mass shooting that took place at Sandy Hook elementary school in Newtown, Connecticut before the game against the San Francisco 49ers at Gillette Stadium on December 16, 2012 in Foxboro, Massachusetts. Credit: Getty Images
Society moves on, he says, because of our ability to distance ourselves from the horror of the day, and because people believe that these tragedies are “one of the unfortunate prices we pay for our freedoms.”

Grant Duwe, a criminologist with the Minnesota Department of Corrections who has written a history of mass murders in America, said that while mass shootings rose between the 1960s and the 1990s, they actually dropped in the 2000s. And mass killings actually reached their peak in 1929, according to his data. He estimates that there were 32 in the 1980s, 42 in the 1990s and 26 in the first decade of the century.

Chances of being killed in a mass shooting, he says, are probably no greater than being struck by lightning.

Still, he understands the public perception – and extensive media coverage – when mass shootings occur in places like malls and schools. “There is this feeling that could have been me. It makes it so much more frightening.”

On one spring day more than four years ago, it WAS Colin Goddard.

For two years after a gunman pumped four bullets into him in a classroom at Virginia Tech, Goddard said he couldn’t bear to listen to television reports about other shootings, or read about them. It brought him back instantly to that day – April 16, 2007 – when he lay on the floor of classroom 211, blood dripping from his shoulder and leg as he wondered if he would survive.

And then, on April 3, 2009, he turned on the computer and heard the news. A 41-year-old man had opened fire at an immigrant community center in Binghamton, N.Y., killing 11 immigrants and two workers. The shooter, a Vietnamese immigrant and a former student at the center, killed himself as police rushed to the scene.

Goddard watched, riveted, realizing that this is what it was like for the rest of the world when a mass shooting occurs. Inside the school, or the mall, or the theater, the victims lie wounded and terrified and dying, while the rest of the world watches from afar. People glue themselves to the television for a day. They soak in the horror from the safety of their office or home. They feel awful for a while. Then they move on with their lives. They grow numb.

Duwe says the cycle has gone on for generations.


NEWTOWN, CT – DECEMBER 14: Responders gather at the scene of a mass shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School with police tape surrounding a vehicle on December 14, 2012 in Newtown, Connecticut. Twenty-seven are dead, including 20 children, after a gunman identified as Adam Lanza in news reports, opened fire in the school. Lanza also reportedly died at the scene.Credit: Getty Images

“Mass shootings provoke instant debates about violence and guns and mental health and that’s been the case since Charles Whitman climbed the tower at the University of Texas in 1966,” he said, referring to the engineering student and former Marine who killed 13 people and an unborn child and wounded 32 others in a shooting rampage on campus. “It becomes mind-numbingly repetitive.”

“Rampage violence seems to lead to repeated cycles of anguish, investigation, recrimination, and heated debate, with little real progress in prevention,” wrote John Harris, clinical assistant professor of medicine in the College of Medicine at the University of Arizona, in the June issue of American Journal of Public Health. “These types of events can lead to despair about their inevitability and unpredictability.”

And there is despair and frustration, even among those who have set out to stop mass killings.

“We do just seem to slog along, from one tragedy to the next,” Tom Mauser said last July, after the Aurora shootings.

Mauser knows all about the slog. He became an outspoken activist against such violence after his 15-year-old son, Daniel, was slain along with 12 other at Columbine High School in 1999. But he has grown frustrated and weary.

“There was a time when I felt a certain guilt,” said Mauser. “I’d ask, `Why can’t I do more about this? Why haven’t I dedicated myself more to it?’ But I’ll be damned if I’m going to put it all on my shoulders.

“This,” he said, “is all of our problem.”

Carolyn McCarthy enlisted in the cause in 1993, when a deranged gunman killed her husband and seriously injured her son in shooting rampage. She has served in Congress since 1997.

Known as the “gun lady” on Capitol Hill for her fierce championship of gun control laws, McCarthy says she nearly gave up her “lonely crusade” after hearing about the Virginia Tech shooting. And when she heard about the January 2011 shooting of former U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords she says, “I just sat there frozen and watching the television and couldn’t stop crying.”

“It’s like a cancer in our society,” she says. “And if we keep doing nothing to stop it, it’s only going to spread.”

After the Binghamton shootings, Colin Goddard resolved that he had to get involved, to somehow try to stop the cycle. Reminders are lodged inside him: three bullets, a legacy of Virginia Tech.

He now works in Washington for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence.

“I refuse to believe this is something we have to accept as normal in this country,” he said. “There has to be a way to change the culture of violence in our society.”
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      12-17-2012, 09:23 AM   #41
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After each of these tragedies, I don't ever recall hearing about where the existing system broke down. I don't know the rules/laws for all states but a number require background checks and varied lengths of 'cool off' periods. While I don't believe the latter to be effective for those have are determined to be a plague on our society, what about the former? In theory, these checks should be at least helping to prevent some of the shooters from legally acquiring legal firearms since mental state is inquired about, at least on the forms filled out in some states at time of purchase (not time of pick up). Seeing a shrink by itself shouldn't necessarily disqualify someone from owning, but it should at least set a flag to indicate that a little more digging is needed for that person's background (e.g. help coping w/ life event vs required therapy while displaying malicious actions/thoughts).
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      12-17-2012, 11:46 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by BKsBimmer View Post
Yes, you are right. we cannot and will not EVER create a utopian society. You are also correct that we can't protect everyone from every possible situation. No matter what solutions we come up with there will surely still be killings and mass murder shootings. But that shouldn't stop us from acting. The perfect should never be the enemy of the good. We may never make it perfect. But we can always make it better.

Let's try to figure out how to make it better. What are your suggestions?
I don't know.... i'm really at a loss for ideas.

I think a start would be having the media stop making these perpetrators famous. Personally, i think you have something wrong with you if your contemplating suicide. So it seems to me that someone who is contemplating suicide and is pissed off at society would have no problem taking some people with them and gain some posthumous fame.

Maybe fore those like in Aurora who don't turn the gun on themselves, make the consequences extreme and quick, a zero tolerance policy.

We don't live in "Minority Report" so we still have to work with passing laws and consequences for breaking them. Prevention laws are on a slippery slope leading to a police state. So the task is not an easy one for sure, it's difficult because most ideas involve creating a ton of legislation.

Any ideas?
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      12-17-2012, 01:14 PM   #43
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I just got this email randomly from someone I do not know. It was put in my spam folder.

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The primary-school shooting in Newtown, Connecticut, approximately 45 miles from the Colt Arms Factory, is just another one in the long line of government psyops designed to persuade the public to allow the government to take away their guns, and their means to defend themselves against the government and the banksters that the politicians really serve.


The small children murders are designed to create hysterical emotions in women to get them to demand that guns are banned. If that doesn’t work they will continue with their evil agenda with worse and worse atrocities on younger children, until they get their way and disarm the people, so that they cannot fight back against government tyranny.


Newtown is the U.S.A.’s Dunblane, which was orchestrated in Scotland in 1996 by the British establishment, to whip up hysteria in order to ban all handguns from the U.K. It was a follow-up to the Hungerford Massacre in England in 1987, which was carried out by mind-controlled Michael Ryan, who then shot himself so he could not be questioned, and it was used to ban semi-automatic rifles and shotguns.


It’s always the same people behind it – the gun-grabbers who want the people to be defenceless against the gun-grabbers’ employers – the banksters who own all of the politicians. They get their politicians to pass legislation for them, in order to remove the people’s freedoms and means of defending themselves, and enslave them in a draconian police-state, under a mountain of debt, and then exterminate the useless-eaters.


The Dunblane massacre was supposedly carried out by Thomas Hamilton, who was a paedophile and procurer of children, for a high level paedophile ring involving senior members of the Tony Blair Labour-Party shadow-cabinet and others. The massacre served two purposes, it achieved their desired handgun-ban and killed the abused children, so they could not be witnesses against the elite-paedophiles. They then had the findings of the inquiry sealed for 100 years, which is proof of the above.


Like Newtown there were two shooters, Hamilton and a hit-man who shot Hamilton and made it look like Hamilton committed suicide after shooting 16 children, so that he couldn’t be questioned. Hamilton was found in the school gymnasium slumped against a wall and still gurgling, when an off-duty policeman PC Grant McCutcheon entered the gym and saw two semi-automatic pistols, one on either side of Hamilton’s body.


The autopsy revealed that Hamilton was killed with a .38 revolver. These people always slip-up with their crimes. There was no .38 revolver for him to have shot himself with. Thus, there was a second shooter who killed Hamilton.


Similarly, the first reports from Newtown were of two shooters, just like mind-controlled James Holmes in the Denver Batman Cinema massacre, the story then quickly changes to just one.


Columbine was similar, in that a team of shooters in black outfits were seen there and the two accused were on mind-altering prescription-drugs.


Wake up and see the pattern and their modus operandi and don’t fall for it. Never let them take your guns, except from your cold dead hands.


All of these are staged events to whip-up hysterical public support for banning the people from having guns. It works the same in every country – Hungerford in England, Dunblane in Scotland, Port Arthur in Australia and the list in America is endless, because of the Second Amendment and the people having a pro-gun culture. That makes it much more difficult to break the Americans’ love of guns and the Second Amendment, which was put in place to protect the people from the government.


Gun bans work well for tyrants. They worked well for Hitler, Stalin and Chairman Mao, to name just three.


If you want to stop these massacres, wake-up and get rid of the banksters, their puppet-politicians and all gun-grabbers; arm teachers and ban gun-free zones.


From one who can see the pattern and hopes to enable you to see it too.
Not to see the conspiracy theorists are still hard at work. What astounds me is that these people believe the government is behind all these attacks, yet don't leave the country.
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      12-17-2012, 01:30 PM   #44
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And here is a thought for you, saying that assault rifles should be banned because no one NEEDS one would be the same as banning aftermarket turbos. No one NEEDS to put a bigger turbo on their car, and it does lead to deaths in some cases. Often times people put turbos on their cars for recreational use, and a lot of people who own assault rifles own them for recreational use and never use them to kill anyone.
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