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      12-12-2012, 12:27 PM   #45
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One of the irony's is that those that could benefit the most from no weekly gas bill yearly maintenance costs etc.... Cannot afford the car.


I'm wondering if we will see the return of coach builders. Just think at the end of ten fifteen years some cars go to the crusher a Tesla would just need a refit of the interior.
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      12-12-2012, 12:36 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by xG35c View Post
Hydrogen powered electric vehicles have tremendous potential. Unfortunately, producing it requires as much energy as you get out of it, meaning a huge investment in dedicated alternative energy power plants to produce it. Getting it to the gas stations will require another huge investment in new distribution and delivery infrastructure. And the logistics of storing it in your vehicle, either at near absolute zero in liquid form or under tremendously high pressures in a special tank, don't look too good or safe either right now.
Since our economy is built on the concept of generally doing things as cheaply as possible, this may never happen in our lifetimes. However, if we could pull this off in the next 10 - 20 years I do believe that stopping the shipment of all of our dollars overseas to quench are insatiable oil thirst will solve nearly every single problem our country has!
THINK ABOUT IT!
No doubt its going to take considerably effort to develop a mass market hydrogen system BUUUUUUUUUUTTTTTTTT.....


Today we drill oil from miles below the ocean, load it into massive tankers to ship it across the world, then refine it and then put it into pipelines to be delivered by trucks. Some really impressive logistics in its own right.

Right now running hydrogen costs about 2-3x as much as fuel (when including the cost of the car) and its in its infancy vs a very mature system. It will change, and I believe change more quickly than most imagine.
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      12-12-2012, 12:54 PM   #47
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Whats weird is its not the fact that its electric that makes me like the car so much. I really like the size and the fact that its a 4 door hatch! The electronics package is really great as well. Surprised it doesn't have memory seats, or HUD.
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      12-12-2012, 01:01 PM   #48
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efthreeoh knows what hes talking about.
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      12-12-2012, 01:09 PM   #49
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I live in Menlo Park where Tesla started and has their main dealership, while I love the cars I wish they designed their own body styles. I guess they have to put that money towards more important development
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      12-12-2012, 02:21 PM   #50
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Just wait till Tesla 3rd gen comes out! We might all leave BMW for that car!
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      12-12-2012, 02:28 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
And you know this how?
Friends in the industry and keeping up with what's going on in the industry out of professional and intellectual curiosity. New battery tech has already been implemented over the past few years, actually. It's been a growth industry for a while now.
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      12-12-2012, 02:29 PM   #52
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My In-laws already put down a deposit. I hope they let me drive it.
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      12-12-2012, 02:30 PM   #53
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Isn't that always the case? Companies will always implement new tech in anything they make. One could just say that every year and keep on waiting or actually go out and buy something they want.
It certainly is. Companies have implemented lithium ion, that's for sure, and customers buy plenty of Li batteries.
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      12-12-2012, 02:35 PM   #54
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I wonder why they don't use a less-powerful motor to extend the range/lessen the price.
I mean do we really need to get to 60 in under 5 seconds?

Nevermind... I forgot the audience to whom I'm speaking...
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      12-12-2012, 03:36 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thecadman99 View Post
I wonder why they don't use a less-powerful motor to extend the range/lessen the price.
I mean do we really need to get to 60 in under 5 seconds?

Nevermind... I forgot the audience to whom I'm speaking...
They do. They have a $50k one with 160mi range and 0-60 in 6.5. You have to pay $75k to get 300mi range and then $85k to get 0-60 in 4.4. (all after federal tax credit)

Here's all the info. http://www.teslamotors.com/models/options
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      12-12-2012, 03:57 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dozhdbog View Post
Friends in the industry and keeping up with what's going on in the industry out of professional and intellectual curiosity. New battery tech has already been implemented over the past few years, actually. It's been a growth industry for a while now.
Battery "technology" has not changed in YEARS. There have been no widespread charge per density improvements for batteries (i.e. why your charging your cellphone right now rather than using China's new battery droplet that charges your phone for life)
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      12-12-2012, 04:07 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1NS0MN1A View Post
Battery "technology" has not changed in YEARS. There have been no widespread charge per density improvements for batteries (i.e. why your charging your cellphone right now rather than using China's new battery droplet that charges your phone for life)
This is turning into a semantic argument... "change" "new", etc. Chart the path of Lithium over the past 3 decades and note the improvements. Here's a neat article on even newer improvements to lithium:
http://www.geekwire.com/2012/battery...-ion-capacity/

And, tangentially, check this cool shit out:
http://money.cnn.com/video/technolog...ergy.cnnmoney/

And this:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1211145240.htm
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      12-12-2012, 04:09 PM   #58
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According to my friends who work on this stuff, battery tech is venturing into an exciting era of growth and advancements.
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      12-12-2012, 11:07 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dozhdbog View Post
This is turning into a semantic argument... "change" "new", etc. Chart the path of Lithium over the past 3 decades and note the improvements. Here's a neat article on even newer improvements to lithium:
http://www.geekwire.com/2012/battery...-ion-capacity/

And, tangentially, check this cool shit out:
http://money.cnn.com/video/technolog...ergy.cnnmoney/

And this:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1211145240.htm
Sure there are improvements, but the intrinsic chemistry of batteries will allow only so much gain. It will always come down to energy density per unit cost. The energy density gap between gasoline and chemical batteries is just too large to overcome economically.
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      12-13-2012, 01:05 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Sure there are improvements, but the intrinsic chemistry of batteries will allow only so much gain. It will always come down to energy density per unit cost. The energy density gap between gasoline and chemical batteries is just too large to overcome economically.
It's really not about energy density at all, it's more about the reusability of batteries and charging them in the most energy efficient manner.

There's a reason it only costs 6 bucks to drive 300 miles in a tesla.

And it would help tremendously, of course, that new Li tech potentially will allow triple the capacity.
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      12-13-2012, 09:35 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Dozhdbog View Post
It's really not about energy density at all, it's more about the reusability of batteries and charging them in the most energy efficient manner.

There's a reason it only costs 6 bucks to drive 300 miles in a tesla.

And it would help tremendously, of course, that new Li tech potentially will allow triple the capacity.
I totally disagree. Gasoline and diesel have the highest BTU per cubic volume (and mass) and per unit cost of any fuel type. Energy density per unit cost is critical to the success of any fuel type. In a personal transportation application, the ability to add energy back into the drive train in the shortest amount of time is critical to the acceptance of the vehicle. Tesla can add supercharging stations along major thoroughfares in the US all they want, but what happens when you need to drive 300 miles into Nebraska off interstate?

Until petrol-fuel goes away, electric cars cannot compete in a cost-competitive environment. The ICE technology is over 100 years old and has the benefit of 100 years of efficiency improvement; and as in all technology, gets cheaper as time goes on.

Listen, I think the Tesla and Volt are revolutionary cars, but as the Volt has proven, price is the ultimate determining factor.

Now, I decided to run some numbers. I looked into the Tesla last weekend; their website is great because it has a lot of information and fuel cost calculators. I also have kept extremely detailed cost information on my current E90. I know down to the penny how much gas I have purchased, how far I've driven, the total cost of my car purchase price including down payment and loan financing, and all my maintenance/repair costs (keep in mind my maintenance cost is mostly free DIY labor so the data is a bit skewed). My total operating cost so far to drive 194,000 miles is $76,498. Based on the Tesla Website for the Tesla S with the 60KW battery pack to drive the same miles the total, which only includes purchase price (including the Fed tax credit but no loan cost) and electricity at 12 cents/KW, is $70,136. So it is close. What I don't know is the maintenance cost of the Tesla. I don't know the cost for tire replacement, brake replacement, and what normal service costs are (all of which are real numbers in my $76K E90 total ownership cost. If I take out maintenance in the E90 to compare numbers between the E90 and the Tesla the E90 drops by $13K down to $63K, so the ICE car in view is cheaper. Also, not known is how less efficient the Tesla's battery gets over time and how much charge it will hold at high mileage; and, even, if the battery lasts 194,000 miles.

Last edited by Efthreeoh; 12-13-2012 at 09:58 PM.
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      12-14-2012, 02:46 AM   #62
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Gasoline and diesel have the highest BTU per cubic volume (and mass) and per unit cost of any fuel type.
Incorrect. Nuclear has much more, and hydrogen does as well.
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      12-14-2012, 02:51 AM   #63
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Anti matter has the highest fuel density.

Anti matter has the highest fuel density.
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      12-14-2012, 02:53 AM   #64
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Also, please look at diesel-electric engines.

Same principles applies to the energy costs of an electric vehicle, they just happen to charge their batteries from a source other than onboard motor.

Also, at 12 cents a kilowatt hour, the costs are much less than how much petrol you'd use in an e90 over the same amount of miles. I think your math is off. As one reviewer stated, his 300 mile trip cost about 7 bucks. That same trip in an e90 will cost about 60.
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      12-14-2012, 06:56 AM   #65
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Incorrect. Nuclear has much more, and hydrogen does as well.
Okay, sure, you're correct, but my statement is in reference to fuels that power automobiles with internal combustion engines. Outside of BMW's and Honda's hydrogen cars, which aren't for sale BTW, not seeing many uranium-power cars out there. Stay on topic dude.
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      12-14-2012, 07:24 AM   #66
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Also, please look at diesel-electric engines.

Same principles applies to the energy costs of an electric vehicle, they just happen to charge their batteries from a source other than onboard motor.

Also, at 12 cents a kilowatt hour, the costs are much less than how much petrol you'd use in an e90 over the same amount of miles. I think your math is off. As one reviewer stated, his 300 mile trip cost about 7 bucks. That same trip in an e90 will cost about 60.
Well, my math is not off. I used Tesla's fuel cost calculator on their website. Using my commute of 160 miles a day (I actually used 185 miles a day for running errands and such) and a Tesla s with the mid-range 60KW battery, the electric cost at .12 KWh is $6.28 per charge cycle. 194,000 miles devided by 185 miles per charge is 1,049 charges. 1,049 charges times $6.28 is $6,586 total cost for electricity for 194,000 miles.

I've spent $23,306 (7,212 gallons) of gasoline in the E90 for those 194,000 miles. Normal maintenance (i.e. no abmormal repairs) for the E90 is $8,706

So it breaks down like this:

E90:

Vehicle Cost (purchase price and loan cost)-------$39,554
Fuel Cost (real recorded data)----------------------$23,306
Maintenance (fluid changes, tires, brakes etc.)-----$8,706
Total Ownership Cost -------------------------------$71,566

Tesla S (Estimates):

Vehicle Cost (purchase price and loan cost)-------$69,892
Fuel Cost ($6.28 per charge, 1049 charges)--------$6,586
Maintenance (tires and brakes only)-----------------$5,600
Total Ownership Cost -------------------------------$82,078

Now considering the Tesla is closer in size to a 7-series and it works out in Tesla's favor (except the unknowns for maintenance and battery replacement/efficiency drop).
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