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      12-11-2012, 01:04 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by ArthurJGuy View Post
Not only does removing the cats not change the commanded AFR of the engine (that is commanded in the tune), but with a target based ECM like the M has it will have no effect because the ECM will do anything within the physical limits of the car to hit that target AFR.

They are illegal to remove, I'll give you that one. That is why most all catless pipes say off road use only, but we all know no one takes an M off road.
right, as I said it'll prob do nothing, but why give BMW the ammo to deny your warranty. Believe me that if it went to litigation BMW can say what they want (no judge is gonna dyno the car for comparison sake) and you'll lose. Simple as that. Either swap x pipes back and forth or leave it alone.
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      12-11-2012, 03:23 PM   #24
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I would think again, I have fought it in court and won as have many others.

The minor horsepower gain that a cat delete would cause, is the same gain you get when it gets cold outside. He has to directly prove that the removal of the cat caused not only an engine failure, but in your example a driveline failure and there is no link between the two at all. Not only that but catalayic converters, being emissions and not performance based, have their own warranty mandated by the government.
I have done a MM action and they are not obligated to warranty something they did not sell you. By changing the power level of the car you have altered the loads on the engine and drivetrain to something that they did not sell and they are not obligated to warranty it unless it can be shown that the increase was of no significance. The argument of significance is held to the yardstick of the variability of the power level put out by the engine as stock. Exceed that and the car has become something they did not sell and they have no obligation to provide warranty on something they did not sell. Actually go to court which most MM actions don't and they will have a whole passel of graphs and assorted data to trot out and the court will accept this as truth until you prove them wrong. Getting on the stand and saying liar liar pants on fire isn't going to cut it, you have to have your own data to counter theirs.

The loss of warranty will either be case by case or of the drivetrain as a whole while the remainder of the car will remain under warranty. This is something that is provided for under MM along with right to seek costs and many other things which I cant recall. Notice I said the right to seek costs, there is no guarantee of getting them. The total warranty can only be voided if the car meets a few specific criteria such as odo tampering, salvage title, altered so completely as to change its fundamental use to something other than what it was sold for. There are a few more but its been almost 10 years since my lawyer explained all this stuff to me.

I'm no attorney and I know that state law can play a large factor in these actions but what I know says what your saying is not true. My attorney actually laughed at me when I said pretty much what you posted which was what I believed at the time.
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      12-11-2012, 04:09 PM   #25
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I have done a MM action and they are not obligated to warranty something they did not sell you. By changing the power level of the car you have altered the loads on the engine and drivetrain to something that they did not sell and they are not obligated to warranty it unless it can be shown that the increase was of no significance. The argument of significance is held to the yardstick of the variability of the power level put out by the engine as stock. Exceed that and the car has become something they did not sell and they have no obligation to provide warranty on something they did not sell. Actually go to court which most MM actions don't and they will have a whole passel of graphs and assorted data to trot out and the court will accept this as truth until you prove them wrong. Getting on the stand and saying liar liar pants on fire isn't going to cut it, you have to have your own data to counter theirs.

The loss of warranty will either be case by case or of the drivetrain as a whole while the remainder of the car will remain under warranty. This is something that is provided for under MM along with right to seek costs and many other things which I cant recall. Notice I said the right to seek costs, there is no guarantee of getting them. The total warranty can only be voided if the car meets a few specific criteria such as odo tampering, salvage title, altered so completely as to change its fundamental use to something other than what it was sold for. There are a few more but its been almost 10 years since my lawyer explained all this stuff to me.

I'm no attorney and I know that state law can play a large factor in these actions but what I know says what your saying is not true. My attorney actually laughed at me when I said pretty much what you posted which was what I believed at the time.
The kicker here is that the engine advertised at X peak horsepower is not always going to make X peak horsepower. Weather, humidity, climate, elevation, and many other factors come into play. Even if there is power gained from removal of the cats, that's not to say that the new power level exceeds the stock power level and load depending on those variables.

This is why dyno numbers vary and track results vary so much for such similar cars.

I've had to disprove this before, and yes it is a pain in the ass, and you are correct that it is up to you to prove your case with facutal data. Luckily for me I was the one tuning the car in question for many years so I had log files out the ass to show this.
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      12-12-2012, 10:51 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArthurJGuy
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Originally Posted by crabman View Post
I have done a MM action and they are not obligated to warranty something they did not sell you. By changing the power level of the car you have altered the loads on the engine and drivetrain to something that they did not sell and they are not obligated to warranty it unless it can be shown that the increase was of no significance. The argument of significance is held to the yardstick of the variability of the power level put out by the engine as stock. Exceed that and the car has become something they did not sell and they have no obligation to provide warranty on something they did not sell. Actually go to court which most MM actions don't and they will have a whole passel of graphs and assorted data to trot out and the court will accept this as truth until you prove them wrong. Getting on the stand and saying liar liar pants on fire isn't going to cut it, you have to have your own data to counter theirs.

The loss of warranty will either be case by case or of the drivetrain as a whole while the remainder of the car will remain under warranty. This is something that is provided for under MM along with right to seek costs and many other things which I cant recall. Notice I said the right to seek costs, there is no guarantee of getting them. The total warranty can only be voided if the car meets a few specific criteria such as odo tampering, salvage title, altered so completely as to change its fundamental use to something other than what it was sold for. There are a few more but its been almost 10 years since my lawyer explained all this stuff to me.

I'm no attorney and I know that state law can play a large factor in these actions but what I know says what your saying is not true. My attorney actually laughed at me when I said pretty much what you posted which was what I believed at the time.
The kicker here is that the engine advertised at X peak horsepower is not always going to make X peak horsepower. Weather, humidity, climate, elevation, and many other factors come into play. Even if there is power gained from removal of the cats, that's not to say that the new power level exceeds the stock power level and load depending on those variables.

This is why dyno numbers vary and track results vary so much for such similar cars.

I've had to disprove this before, and yes it is a pain in the ass, and you are correct that it is up to you to prove your case with facutal data. Luckily for me I was the one tuning the car in question for many years so I had log files out the ass to show this.
My service advisor and I spoke about this kind of thing.
Yes there are laws stating that the mod has to have cause the damage.
For example: I put a supercharger on my car and the suspension fails...well they cant deny me suspension work because of a blower.
Well engine and exhaust DO go together. While an axle back will never be the reason for a voided warranty, cats are a different story. Cats dramatically reduce the back pressure and could EASILY be used to deny engine work.
He told me theyve gone to court numerous times and at the wnd of the day BMW has the best lawyers and will basicaly always win; all they have to say is our car was designed to run on stock back pressure.

Ps: BMW could report anyone who tampers with emissions equipment and its a 5 thousand dollar fine...
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      12-12-2012, 12:34 PM   #27
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My service advisor and I spoke about this kind of thing.
Yes there are laws stating that the mod has to have cause the damage.
For example: I put a supercharger on my car and the suspension fails...well they cant deny me suspension work because of a blower.
Well engine and exhaust DO go together. While an axle back will never be the reason for a voided warranty, cats are a different story. Cats dramatically reduce the back pressure and could EASILY be used to deny engine work.
He told me theyve gone to court numerous times and at the wnd of the day BMW has the best lawyers and will basicaly always win; all they have to say is our car was designed to run on stock back pressure.

Ps: BMW could report anyone who tampers with emissions equipment and its a 5 thousand dollar fine...
So you are trying to tell me with catless exhaust if you have the notorious bearing failure, or an injector failure, or an ITB sticks closed, or a timing chain starts making noise that the exhaust is to blame? That's a crock.

I'd laugh if they threatened me with the backpressure argument, exhaust backpressure is BAD for an engine, and by releasing any the engine would work easier and cooler, this is also VERY well documented.
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      12-12-2012, 12:40 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beemw335 View Post
My service advisor and I spoke about this kind of thing.
Yes there are laws stating that the mod has to have cause the damage.
For example: I put a supercharger on my car and the suspension fails...well they cant deny me suspension work because of a blower.
Well engine and exhaust DO go together. While an axle back will never be the reason for a voided warranty, cats are a different story. Cats dramatically reduce the back pressure and could EASILY be used to deny engine work.
He told me theyve gone to court numerous times and at the wnd of the day BMW has the best lawyers and will basicaly always win; all they have to say is our car was designed to run on stock back pressure.

Ps: BMW could report anyone who tampers with emissions equipment and its a 5 thousand dollar fine...
Also, according to the Clean Air Act from the EPA, the fine is $2,500 and there are many conditions where it is in fact, legal.

http://www.epa.gov/air/caa/title2.html
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      12-12-2012, 12:52 PM   #29
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The EPA fine issue is going to be there even if you just install a catless x pipe from whatever company, but in reality the pursuit of such things is not a high priority.

Regarding the warranty, sure they can try to deny your claim, and they have the burden of showing that the part caused the failure. Although that sounds nice in theory, finding a decent lawyer to take a case with a $10-20k matter in controversy (1/3 of that of course if contingency) and going through hiring experts etc. will not be easy.

My warranty is gone anyway, but I ran aftermarket parts while under warranty with the expectation that BMW would put up a massive shit storm if I tried to get something expensive covered that they could even have a straight faced argument that it was caused by my parts.

Backpressure is necessary in some instances. I ran a E36 racecar with headers only temporarily, because I had just done an engine swap, and the shops I talked to about it strongly rec'd against running it hard like that. It can allow the engine to rev up too quickly and damage valves etc.
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