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      12-10-2012, 02:26 AM   #1
W Cole
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Has anyone gutted the primary cats?

Were you able to do it without cutting/welding to maintain an OEM look? Any pointers?

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      12-10-2012, 02:41 AM   #2
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Were you able to do it without cutting/welding to maintain an OEM look? Any pointers?

TIA
I read a thread once where one of the vendors (or tuners) tried this. Of course you would have to cut the top then re-weld shut, but the short version is even after the gutting, there was to much turbulence in the oval shape or something and there was no increase in power. I'll see if I can find this thread.
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      12-10-2012, 05:15 AM   #3
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Not on this car, but I have cut them open and welded a pipe inside of them so that they were for inspection only before.
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      12-10-2012, 10:17 AM   #4
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I was thinking the same thing. It must yield gains, maybe not as much as a test pipe, but something. Like ArthurJ said, adding a pipe would be ideal since it would pass visual inspection when it was time to smog check.
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      12-10-2012, 04:21 PM   #5
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Not on this car, but I have cut them open and welded a pipe inside of them so that they were for inspection only before.
This may be what I end up doing. I'm most concerned with the "BMW inspection."

It looks like it may be difficult to cut them open and weld a straight pipe inside as the inlet side of the cat is oblong shaped..

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      12-10-2012, 05:37 PM   #6
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This may be what I end up doing. I'm most concerned with the "BMW inspection."

It looks like it may be difficult to cut them open and weld a straight pipe inside as the inlet side of the cat is oblong shaped..
What "BMW inspections" are being performed on a 2009 model?
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      12-10-2012, 06:33 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W Cole View Post
This may be what I end up doing. I'm most concerned with the "BMW inspection."

It looks like it may be difficult to cut them open and weld a straight pipe inside as the inlet side of the cat is oblong shaped..
What "BMW inspections" are being performed on a 2009 model?
Warranty work?
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      12-10-2012, 06:47 PM   #8
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Warranty work?
Affirmative.
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      12-10-2012, 07:15 PM   #9
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Do a search. Some guy did it on here w/ lots of pics and a good how to/ write up
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      12-10-2012, 07:34 PM   #10
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Affirmative.
Don't bother. We have a number of stock X-Pipes we can swap on a loan basis if needed.
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      12-10-2012, 07:42 PM   #11
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I wouldn't bother for warranty work, there is nothing that removing or gutting the cats will damage, and the worst they could do is void the warranty on your exhaust, but you already have aftermarket, so who cares?
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      12-10-2012, 08:29 PM   #12
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I wouldn't bother for warranty work, there is nothing that removing or gutting the cats will damage, and the worst they could do is void the warranty on your exhaust, but you already have aftermarket, so who cares?
Are you sure? My fear is ill take the car in for a routine oil change with the aftermarket test pipes, etc installed and BMW will make note of it and then in the future if the engine has a catastrophic failure, even if I replace the xpipe to stock, they will have record of exhaust mods and therefore void the engine warranty.
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      12-10-2012, 08:53 PM   #13
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Do a search. Some guy did it on here w/ lots of pics and a good how to/ write up
I saw a thread where he gutted the secondaries. I've searched extensively and didn't find one for the primaries. If you have a link it would be much appreciated.
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      12-10-2012, 11:57 PM   #14
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Are you sure? My fear is ill take the car in for a routine oil change with the aftermarket test pipes, etc installed and BMW will make note of it and then in the future if the engine has a catastrophic failure, even if I replace the xpipe to stock, they will have record of exhaust mods and therefore void the engine warranty.
Federal law.

Worst case you lose your exhaust warranty, but if you don't have stock exhaust who cares.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuso...s_Warranty_Act
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      12-11-2012, 12:03 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W Cole View Post
This may be what I end up doing. I'm most concerned with the "BMW inspection."

It looks like it may be difficult to cut them open and weld a straight pipe inside as the inlet side of the cat is oblong shaped..
LOL and you dont think they will notice the sound difference? Theyve seen 100's of M3's and know the sound of a stock one vs one with the cats cleaned out. Stock appearance or not. Sound wont fool anyone.
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      12-11-2012, 12:08 AM   #16
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LOL and you dont think they will notice the sound difference? Theyve seen 100's of M3's and know the sound of a stock one vs one with the cats cleaned out. Stock appearance or not. Sound wont fool anyone.
True. But even so worst case they will put a note in the file, "sounds loud"

I'm okay with that.
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      12-11-2012, 12:13 AM   #17
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True. But even so worst case they will put a note in the file, "sounds loud"

I'm okay with that.
Or exhaust leak, which is the first guess.
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      12-11-2012, 01:32 AM   #18
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You also won't pass anything past them because the CEL will be on, best to embrace it and take it at face value.
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      12-11-2012, 03:29 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArthurJGuy View Post
Federal law.

Worst case you lose your exhaust warranty, but if you don't have stock exhaust who cares.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuso...s_Warranty_Act
I'm sorry but this is not true. Losing the primary cats will add power making the car something that bmw did not sell and they are not obligated to warranty something they did not sell insofar as the affected parts. While this will end up being a denial on the drivetrain and the power seat will still be fixed a person should be willing to be and financially capable of being their own warranty station before they make this move. An important point when you consider the cost of a new engine or trans for this car. Its not likely to be a problem but if something does go wrong with a major drivetrain component it wont be the dealer that makes any decision regarding the warranty work. A regional rep will come in and look at the car. He has absolutely no mercy, he doesn't sell cars and doesn't care how many bmw's you have purchased. He is very well trained and looking for anything that adds power. A cat delete adds power. When he says no BMW will not authorize the parts or payment for the labor which means you are then out of pocket or you hope that you are such a special customer that the dealer will be willing to go into their pocket for the works.
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      12-11-2012, 12:12 PM   #20
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I'm sorry but this is not true. Losing the primary cats will add power making the car something that bmw did not sell and they are not obligated to warranty something they did not sell insofar as the affected parts. While this will end up being a denial on the drivetrain and the power seat will still be fixed a person should be willing to be and financially capable of being their own warranty station before they make this move. An important point when you consider the cost of a new engine or trans for this car. Its not likely to be a problem but if something does go wrong with a major drivetrain component it wont be the dealer that makes any decision regarding the warranty work. A regional rep will come in and look at the car. He has absolutely no mercy, he doesn't sell cars and doesn't care how many bmw's you have purchased. He is very well trained and looking for anything that adds power. A cat delete adds power. When he says no BMW will not authorize the parts or payment for the labor which means you are then out of pocket or you hope that you are such a special customer that the dealer will be willing to go into their pocket for the works.

I would think again, I have fought it in court and won as have many others.

The minor horsepower gain that a cat delete would cause, is the same gain you get when it gets cold outside. He has to directly prove that the removal of the cat caused not only an engine failure, but in your example a driveline failure and there is no link between the two at all. Not only that but catalayic converters, being emissions and not performance based, have their own warranty mandated by the government.
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      12-11-2012, 12:53 PM   #21
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I would think again, I have fought it in court and won as have many others.

The minor horsepower gain that a cat delete would cause, is the same gain you get when it gets cold outside. He has to directly prove that the removal of the cat caused not only an engine failure, but in your example a driveline failure and there is no link between the two at all. Not only that but catalayic converters, being emissions and not performance based, have their own warranty mandated by the government.
you statement forgets that A/F can be altered via having no cats on the car. Will it? prob not, but BMW can say it will and good luck proving them wrong. And it's not the same gain as when it's cold outside, little different. Yes, federal emissions equipment has it's onw warranty but it is also ILLEGAL to remove and grounds for a warranty denial immediately.


the problem is if you remove the cats w/ are emissions equipment, then yesm the dealer can void the warranty. Most new cars are sold w/ this as a disclaimer. Yes, MAYBE you will win in court, but who has time for all that bullshit. Especially when removing the cats, BMW can easily say that the A/F ratio is now manipulated and yada yada yada your warranty is void. IMO not worth it for them to void a warranty on a new car. And yes I know all about the act, but you keep preaching about it, and it's not that simple as you make it sound
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      12-11-2012, 01:02 PM   #22
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you statement forgets that A/F can be altered via having no cats on the car. Will it? prob not, but BMW can say it will and good luck proving them wrong. And it's not the same gain as when it's cold outside, little different. Yes, federal emissions equipment has it's onw warranty but it is also ILLEGAL to remove and grounds for a warranty denial immediately.


the problem is if you remove the cats w/ are emissions equipment, then yesm the dealer can void the warranty. Most new cars are sold w/ this as a disclaimer. Yes, MAYBE you will win in court, but who has time for all that bullshit. Especially when removing the cats, BMW can easily say that the A/F ratio is now manipulated and yada yada yada your warranty is void. IMO not worth it for them to void a warranty on a new car. And yes I know all about the act, but you keep preaching about it, and it's not that simple as you make it sound

Not only does removing the cats not change the commanded AFR of the engine (that is commanded in the tune), but with a target based ECM like the M has it will have no effect because the ECM will do anything within the physical limits of the car to hit that target AFR. Even on cars that I have tuned in the past that were not target based, going to an offroad exhaust changed nothing on the AFR.

They are illegal to remove, I'll give you that one. That is why most all catless pipes say off road use only, but we all know no one takes an M off road.

I agree it is a ton of time and money to fight, and most people never will. But when you need a $20k drivetrain all because of a set of mufflers, it is the cost effective, and correct, path.
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Last edited by ArthurJGuy; 12-11-2012 at 01:07 PM.
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