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      08-21-2007, 12:30 PM   #45
enfield
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uabimmer View Post
Why has the world accepted the terms B.C. (before Christ) and A.D. (After Death) as a bench mark to measure time??
The world has not accepted BC etc. There are other calenders.

According to the Jewish Calander today is Elul 7, 5767.

According to the Islamic Calender today is Sha’aban 7, 1428.

Current year is Year 4704 by the Chinese calendar.

I wont go into details of calenders but for your reference: http://webexhibits.org/calendars/calendar.html

A few calenders on this site include: Chinese, Christian, Indian, Islamic, Jewish, Ethiopian, Persian, Balinese, & Baha'i. I could go on but you need to realise that this is the age of Western Dominance and therefore our Calender is Top Dog. Wait a thousand years and we shall see what calender is top dog.

Jesus, Moses, David, Joseph etc. did not exist. There is no third party source pointing to their existance.



I will pass on entering any doors that lead to an unjust God. See my post above.
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      08-21-2007, 12:47 PM   #46
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Actually there are many third party, non-Christian Jewish and Roman records of Jesus' existence.
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      08-21-2007, 01:05 PM   #47
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How is it recorded that Pharoah (Ramsis?) died? In the recordings of the groups of slaves that did build the pyramids, Egyptians may not have recorded them as Jews, but my their national birth origin. Being Jewish does not invoke a national heritage any more than being Islamic, Buddist, or Christian.

En, I'm not sure I have ever heard the story about Noah dancing butt naked and drunk. I'm not the end-all source of biblical text, but I think I probably would have remembered that one.

Jesus often taught about the Jews vs. the Gentiles. There were times when he tried to show via shame that even Gentiles (all us non-Jews, including Romans) could come to beleive without the lifelong religious training, yet the Jewish leaders would not come to beleive in spite of all they had been taught, because they were lacking in FAITH.

FAITH is something completely different than historical proof, and OFTEN goes against what the world may show as logical truth. In speaking of Jesus as teh foundation of Chritianity, "The stone the builders have discarded has become the cornerstone"
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      08-21-2007, 01:45 PM   #48
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Genesis 9:20-25
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      08-21-2007, 05:03 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
How is it recorded that Pharoah (Ramsis?) died? In the recordings of the groups of slaves that did build the pyramids, Egyptians may not have recorded them as Jews, but my their national birth origin. Being Jewish does not invoke a national heritage any more than being Islamic, Buddist, or Christian.

En, I'm not sure I have ever heard the story about Noah dancing butt naked and drunk. I'm not the end-all source of biblical text, but I think I probably would have remembered that one.

Jesus often taught about the Jews vs. the Gentiles. There were times when he tried to show via shame that even Gentiles (all us non-Jews, including Romans) could come to beleive without the lifelong religious training, yet the Jewish leaders would not come to beleive in spite of all they had been taught, because they were lacking in FAITH.

FAITH is something completely different than historical proof, and OFTEN goes against what the world may show as logical truth. In speaking of Jesus as teh foundation of Chritianity, "The stone the builders have discarded has become the cornerstone"
The pyramids were not built by slaves. It has been proven that highly skilled and well paid Egyptian artisans built the pyramids.
Check out: http://www.nationalgeographic.com/py.../pyramids.html - it tells us:
Quote:
Who Built the Pyramids?

Contrary to some popular depictions, the pyramid builders were not slaves or foreigners. Excavated skeletons show that they were Egyptians who lived in villages developed and overseen by the pharaoh's supervisors.
You may like this version of Noah getting pi$$ed drunk and dancing nudie
http://www.thebricktestament.com/gen...n09_18-19.html
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      08-21-2007, 05:07 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fobunited View Post
Actually there are many third party, non-Christian Jewish and Roman records of Jesus' existence.
How about sharing a few in that case?
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      08-21-2007, 05:32 PM   #51
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OK, then how is it recorded that Pharoah died?
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      08-21-2007, 05:59 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
OK, then how is it recorded that Pharoah died?
Ramesses II probably died of a tooth abscess. It was probably complicated by arthritis. Based on his mummy he was probably around 90 years old. The immediate cause of death could have been a tooth abscess in the mandible. Here's a link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramses_II and here's a quote under the heading "Mummy":
Quote:
For the last decades of his life, Ramesses II was essentially crippled with arthritis and walked with a hunched back,[25] and a recent study excluded ankylosing spondylitis as a possible cause of the pharaoh's arthritis.[26] A significant hole in the pharaoh's mandible was detected while "an abscess by his teeth was serious enough to have caused death by infection, although this cannot be determined with certainty."[27] Microscopic inspection of the roots of Ramesses II's hair revealed that the king may have been a redhead.[28]
Nope - not killed by God while crossing the "Parted" Red Sea.

Now what are you going to come up with me wonders ????

Last edited by enfield; 08-21-2007 at 08:52 PM.
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      08-21-2007, 06:24 PM   #53
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for starters, Josephus
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      08-21-2007, 07:55 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fobunited View Post
for starters, Josephus
He did not. See my post #31 on this thread. I already mentioned that Josephus did no such thing and it was a forgery from the 4th century. See link: http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/josephus-etal.html

Here is a Wikipedia entry talking about the disputed paragraph: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus

Any other proof??

Last edited by enfield; 08-21-2007 at 09:21 PM.
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      08-22-2007, 12:57 AM   #55
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I would be very careful about using internet resources as a basis for religious information, for most, as the one you used, fail to use citations. I read through the link you gave, and found numerous errors concerning its section on Josephus.

For example, it states that Origin said that Josephus did not believe Jesus as the Christ, which he did not as a pharasitic Jew. The question in hand, however, was not whether Jesus was the Christ, but whether Jesus EXISTED, which Josephus' works, even OUTSIDE of the Golden Paragraph, attest to.

Josephus' works are not in favor of Christianity, nor do they support it. In fact, his writings are sarcastic, mocking Christian's belief in Christ as the Son of God. It's like you today, writing a tongue-in-cheek editorial in George Bush. That doesn't mean you like George Bush or believe in his politics, but will a historian 2000 years later will read your editorial and not believe George Bush existed?

There is good textual evidence supporting Josephus' work to be authentic, while the only evidence against it is circumstantial which the website relies on heavily. The text is written in the style of Josephus, writes things a Christian most likely would not have written, fits into the context both grammatically and historically, and is references in Antiquities 20. There is also an Arabic version of the text, which removes the parts questioned by your website, but STILL attests to the existence of Jesus.

The Talmudic writings also write concerning Jesus such as Sanhedrin 43a

There are also Roman sources that cite Jesus' EXISTENCE, not Divinity. Although your website attempts to discredit these sources, they do not cite sources nor have much basis for their claim.

For example, the websites arguments against Suetonius' writing of Christ states that because the account was written after Jesus' supposed death, that it could not be speaking of him. Suetonius writes, "Because the Jews at Rome caused continuous disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus..." The website states that it could not have possibly been referring to Christ since it was written after his death.... yet how many people move at the "instigation of Christ" today, 2000 years after his death? Furthermore, the website states that "Chrestus" is the Greek word for "The Good," which is incorrect. The Greek work for "Good" is "krehstotes," as an adjective. Making that a noun would not result in Chrestus, but rather Krehstotas. The website makes this claim without having any references to Greek text, nor validating their claims. It just makes them. The second portion of Suetonius' writings that the website tries to invalidate concern whether or not "Christians" were called such and segregated from the mainstream Jewish community prior to and during Nero's reign. Even during Jesus' time, this was already the case, for that was the very reason Pilate was pressured to crucify Jesus, to quell a rebellion from a Jewish sect. Christians were not persecuted because Romans were bloodthirsty initially, but rather due to them disrupting the peace amongst Jews, which Rome did not want. The website quite liberally states that many Roman historians and historical references are forgeries without giving much archaeological evidence nor does it cite anything.

I can go on and on, but to deny the mere existence of Jesus, considering the archaeological evidence, third-party manuscripts, etc. astounds me. For there to be continuous mention of Jesus in numerous historical writings as well as correspondences for thousands of years, some of the earliest tracing to mere years after his death, is evidence enough of his existence. It is unfathomable to believe that Jesus did NOT exist given this evidence. Surely if he did not exist, this would have been brought to all these peoples' attention? Surely, if we started writing about the true life existence of Peter Parker and his amazing theatrics as Spider-Man, there would be much criticism and writings against such? I do not see any historical evidence nor writings during the periods that I referenced to calling these historians and officials loonies for citing a person that never existed. There is too much evidence going a certain way to be ignored. You can ignore it, find circumstantial evidence to convince you otherwise, or whatever you wish, but it is still there.
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      08-22-2007, 07:28 AM   #56
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looks like you have no proof fobunited - you are using my references and you have the gall to tell me that I should not read multiple sources of history.

One lousy paragraph supposedly written by Josephus and first referenced in 400AD. Give me a break! Josephus never bothered making fun of Jesus by the way.... Care to give a reference? I will drop Jesus. Jesus is as relevant as is the Tooth Fairy in this thread.

Coming back to God being unjust. God is perfect - right? So I have to only prove it being unjust just once to destroy "The God Delusion."

What do you have to say about Canaan being punished because his daddy Ham saw his granddad Noah sh*t faced and nudie dancing? Cannan wasn't there and did no wrong. What an unjust God!! This God is unjust and thus imperfect. This is a false God.
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      08-22-2007, 09:01 AM   #57
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Were "Pharoah" as depicted in the story and Ramsis II the same person? I honestly do not know, but from what I recall of the various versions of the story Pharoah always had a young son in the wings, ie Ramsis II.

As to the Canaan issue, is it your interpretation that GOD punished him, or was it again the sin of one man against another?
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      08-22-2007, 09:45 AM   #58
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Josephus is not the only historian as I pointed out, and one "lousy" paragraph is the tip of the iceberg. I used your references to point on the errors in them. Look up Thallus, he is not referenced on your website and referenced to Jesus.

Canann's reaction as opposed to his brothers reaction is what was wrong. He merely saw his dad, and did nothing to protect him from shame. His brothers, upon hearing this from Canaan, protect their father. Furthermore, it was Noah who punished him, not God.

Lastly, there is no point in going back and forth with these arguments. The existence of God and the basis of Christianity cannot be won through this bickering, because we could go on forever and there are thousands of historians and scholars for more intellectual than both of us on BOTH sides spouting the same thing. In the end, neither of us will be the wiser, nor friendlier towards one another, and that is not my intention. I do not understand where your animosity and hatred towards Christians is coming from for you to continue to spout mockery, but that doesn't stop me from respecting your efforts in doing your own studying.
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      08-22-2007, 09:58 AM   #59
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I'm learning from all the discussion.

I learn more about my own faith from contributions of those with a better reading of the bible.

I learn more history.

I learn about the faith of others, hopefully able to reach some common ground and further the peace in the world.

I learn more about the perceptions of others in regards to my faith, and gain some understanding of the animosity towards me, again with the hope that I can somehow turn it to peaceful existance.

Please stick with us.
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      08-22-2007, 10:52 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enfield View Post
Coming back to God being unjust. God is perfect - right? So I have to only prove it being unjust just once to destroy "The God Delusion."

What do you have to say about Canaan being punished because his daddy Ham saw his granddad Noah sh*t faced and nudie dancing? Cannan wasn't there and did no wrong. What an unjust God!! This God is unjust and thus imperfect. This is a false God.
I do apoligize for the confusion but what do you mean by the about phrase that i have made bold??

I didnt find anything about Noah dancing while being drunk and i dont even know what that first part means(lets keep it that way).

Genesis 9:21 "Then he drank of the wine and was drunk, and became uncovered in his tent.


Quote:
by fobunited
Canann's reaction as opposed to his brothers reaction is what was wrong. He merely saw his dad, and did nothing to protect him from shame. His brothers, upon hearing this from Canaan, protect their father. Furthermore, it was Noah who punished him, not God.
+1 if you saw your father sleeping naked on the porch would you go around and tell everyone?

if i were you i would reconsider arguing so strongly that God is unjust/Jesus never exsisted/ the Bible is a lie.... because it seems that you are getting all your info from online sources that clearly only persue to make fun of the Bible...

There is no way you can Logically bring me to a conclusion that Jesus never existed because I HAVE EXPERIENCED CHRIST AND HE IS IN MY HEART and no one can take that away.... its that leap of FAITH you have to take that brings you into a relationship with Christ..
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      08-22-2007, 10:52 AM   #61
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huh?
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      08-22-2007, 11:09 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uabimmer View Post

+1 if you saw your father sleeping naked on the porch would you go around and tell everyone?
Sorry fobunited
the question was to enfield
-i was wondering how he would react to seeing his father naked...???
1 cover him from shame? or 2 make a joke out of it?
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      08-22-2007, 11:26 AM   #63
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i didn't pay for any church, and there are billion of people who doesn't believe in god today. did we get burn now?
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      08-22-2007, 11:29 AM   #64
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Jesus, Moses, David, Joseph etc. did not exist. There is no third party source pointing to their existance.
.
well, thousand years later, i mean, no need that long, hundred year later, no third party source will point out that you were exist. have you ever been born in this world?
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      08-22-2007, 11:31 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by 18LLC View Post
i didn't pay for any church, and there are billion of people who doesn't believe in god today. did we get burn now?
Its not about money...

Those who do not accept Christ as Savior will not recieve salvation...(if you are not saved then yes hell is where you are headed)
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      08-22-2007, 11:35 AM   #66
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can anyone proof that hell is exist? if i remember correctly, bible said human will have no more feeling after dead. if no feeling, what's the point to hell to exist? I won't hurt at all.
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